Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: New i1Profiler EULA  (Read 7763 times)
JeffKohn
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1671



WWW
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2011, 11:51:07 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I'm actually in favor of this approach. Having been in the calibration business since 1994, remote profiling is a pain in the ass, and does a great disservice to everyone involved, except when trained end-users are the ones getting the profiles. People need that training in addition to the profiles. If you don't give them that training bad things happen.
While on-site consultation by somebody such as yourself is ideal, it's just not realistic for most hobbyist photographers. And I would also argue that using a remote profiling service could be more beneficial for many than buying a budget package such as ColorMunki and trying to DIY. At least the guy offering the profiling service probably has enough experience to make recommendations about media type or other settings for specific printers, as well as instructions for using the profile and evaluating results. Plus as you yourself have stated the higher-end i1P produces better profiles than ColorMunki.

Quote
This legal stuff really is hard to read so it's nice to know exactly what a companies intentions are.
Well, intentions are not really relevant unless they're backed up by the actual language in the EULA. If their intention really is to get rid of internet profiling services, they should have stuck with the original EULA.

"significant billable services that involve personalized customer interaction." is vague enough that there's plenty of wiggle room for somebody who provides email consultation and/or instructional documentation to claim they're meeting the requirements of the new EULA. At the very least, it would take a court to decide.
Logged

rasworth
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 90


« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2011, 11:58:08 AM »
ReplyReply

Scott,

Regardless of XRite's "intentions", all that really counts is the wording.  And I don't see anything that defines "significant billable services" as having to include training, as opposed to the services I listed.  In other words, I see the normal process of providing profiles for pay, i.e. interaction with a single client to receive a target, process the data, and provide the final product with instructions, as necessary and sufficient to satisfy the license agreement.

If XRite is really serious about prohibiting internet profiling for pay, then they are going to have to be much more specific in their license agreement.  I challenge you to provide us with a written signed statement from somebody in XRite refuting my conclusions.  Otherwise, please stop issuing absolute statements as to what is and isn't allowed based on conversations with the EULA authors.

Richard Southworth


Logged
Scott Martin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1312


WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2011, 12:19:17 PM »
ReplyReply

As I'm sure you realize, I'm bound by agreements not to share my communications with them. What I can do is try to help clarify some of the intentions here. What you decide to do with this info is up to you. Want to challenge them in court? Cool. Want to use another product for a public remote profiling service? Cool.
Logged

COULEUR-ICC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2011, 12:25:26 PM »
ReplyReply

As I'm sure you realize, I'm bound by agreements not to share my communications with them. What I can do is try to help clarify some of the intentions here. What you decide to do with this info is up to you. Want to challenge them in court? Cool. Want to use another product for a public remote profiling service? Cool.
n this case Scott why you lose your time here if this is not to exchange information? No client to train? Not cool Grin

I am part of Coloratti (well until I am accepted as such) but that does not stop me to say when a license seems unreasonable
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 12:27:52 PM by COULEUR-ICC » Logged

rasworth
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 90


« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2011, 12:28:17 PM »
ReplyReply

Scott,

You don't have to share communications, just urge one of them to join the forum and provide the requested statement.

You're recognized as one of the more knowledgeable members of this forum, and in my opinion should be more careful about qualifying your statements with a few IMO's as opposed to issuing "truths".

Richard Southworth
Logged
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9222



WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2011, 12:28:26 PM »
ReplyReply

Couple points. One, I agree that i1P isn’t ColorMunki, its my go to package for profile creation now. I still have PROFILER and ProfileMaker Pro, i1P is better in terms of the end product. The UI needs work, there are bugs that need to be fixed. Nothing new here.

The EUAL is still pretty silly IMHO. I don’t know if there’s any way it can be enforced since there’s no way X-Rite can track how many remote profiles I’ve built. Or if I changed for consultation and gave away a profile (or vise versa). They have no idea if I was on site or someone just mailed me a target to build a profile. And in the end, what’s the difference anyway? So if someone flies me out and I build a dozen profiles on site, or I build 6, come back and build 15 more for them, how is this a problem for X-Rite? Plus I can ask X-rite for my very own exclusion to the existing EULA. So the entire exercise in trying to control the profiles seems a huge waste of time to me. All its done is produce bad feelings towards the company.  

As for remote profiling being less work or more work or in anyway a necessarily different working process, I can tell you from experience that there are times I’ve spent far more time on the phone before and after creating a remote profile than had I driven on site and built one. There can be a lot of hand holding or there can be zero. And why should someone who wants a custom profile but doesn’t have the desire to purchase even an entry level package have to pay for someone to come to them for the profile instead of getting done remotely?

Whether the profile is built remotely or on site, its the same damn profile.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Scott Martin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1312


WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2011, 12:36:55 PM »
ReplyReply

n this case Scott why you lose your time here if this is not to exchange information? No client to train? Not cool Grin

LOL! I'm in the studio today preparing for 1) a lecture I'm giving next week at a conference and 2) a workshop I'm leading the following week. I really should get back to that!

... that does not stop me to say when a license seems unreasonable

Me neither. I've been one of the most vocal people railing against this EULA and have worked at getting it changed.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 12:58:48 PM by Onsight » Logged

COULEUR-ICC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


WWW
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2011, 12:41:58 PM »
ReplyReply

Then he'll have to work again because current conditions are not suitable for many prersonnes and I understand. For my part I only work on testing the solution but if you ask me my opinion on the conditions that would otherwise not exist and discussion  Wink
Logged

Correct Color
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2011, 08:35:44 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
The EUAL is still pretty silly IMHO. I don’t know if there’s any way it can be enforced since there’s no way X-Rite can track how many remote profiles I’ve built. Or if I changed for consultation and gave away a profile (or vise versa). They have no idea if I was on site or someone just mailed me a target to build a profile.

A couple years back I had the bright idea to have a go at making a remote profiling service website. I spent some fair amount of time writing it all up and generating the screenshots and instructions and all and setting the whole thing up, got it all up and running and did a little Adwords campaign, 'went live' and just waited for the money to start rolling in.

What's hilarious is that X-Rite really thinks the 7 (yeah, seven) profiles I've written from actual generated business from that site are worth jacking with all this nonsense over.

I took the Adwords campaign down but the site is still there, and all I use it for now is to distribute targets and have a payment button for current customers--such as Scott Martin described.

So it's far from a huge deal, however, by this EULA, if I upgrade my copy of Monaco Profiler, I'm going to have to take it down. If X-Rite ever did decide to 'go after' remote profiling services, I'm sure looking for online sites is how they'd start.

Thing is the Audit language still remains in the new EULA. I've been down the road of tilting at giant windmills in court, and I'm not going there again. X-Rite legally can make an attempt to enforce this provision, and that attempt would be enough to kill a guy like me. It's not a chance I'm willing to take.

To Scott I'd add that while this is a definite improvement and your efforts in getting this far are much appreciated, it's a good idea never, ever to get involved in attempting to interpret intent of legal language.

Legal language means exactly what it says. Supposed intent is entirely beside the point.

Finally, whoever it was that pointed out that they'd bought Monaco with promise of a free upgrade has, I think, a very, very valid point. The kind of point that would stand up in court.

From what I've seen, and for what my opinion is worth, yes, the King is indeed dead and the profiles that come from i1P are superior to Monaco. Argyll? Please. I didn't like the EULA that came with Monaco and I've tried for years to get MP quality profiles out of Argyll. Just not happening.

Qualux too for that matter. Qualux actually makes very credible profiles for large-gamut devices but it falls down on smaller ones.

So I'll probably grit my teeth and pay full pop for i1P just so that I have it but also to keep my Monaco license intact. But X-Rite is still not on my Christmas card list.


Mike Adams
Correct Color
Logged
rasworth
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 90


« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 11:12:15 AM »
ReplyReply

Ok, time for a test case of this silliness.  I filled out and submitted the XRite special agreement form with the following description:

"Primary business involves direct local customer contact, providing profiles and consultation on customer premises.  However, occasionally the need arises to receive a printer target via mail, generate the profile using i1Profiler, and then send the profile to customer via email.  Further interaction by phone and email is required for remote customer to successfully utilize profile."

So hopefully I can report back as to how this works.  Has anbody else tried?

Richard Southworth
Logged
Scott Martin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1312


WWW
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2011, 11:19:47 AM »
ReplyReply

I've already presented this question to them and had considerable dialog about it. If you work with a customer onsite and then later want to make profiles remotely for them that's fine, totally fine! There's "significant billable services" to that client in addition to the remote profile.

What's not so good is when you offer remote profiling services to people you've never worked with. Put up a remote profiling website and watch the money come in with minimal contact kind of thing. Your email could use a little clarification as to wither you're providing remote profiles to existing clients or to new ones as that is the key, IMO.
Logged

digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9222



WWW
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2011, 11:24:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Has anbody else tried?

Filled out the form this morning, no reply as yet.

Put up a remote profiling website and watch the money come in with minimal contact kind of thing.

What defines minimal contact kind of thing? So if people call me and we talk for 5 minutes about color management, no wait, 7 and a half minutes, then its OK? I mean seriously, this is so silly. 50 profiles are OK without a newer EUAL but 51 sounds an alarm? Or from Jan 2011 to June 2011 I build 50 remote profiles, then someone sends me a target by mail for a profile, I can call them up and somehow convince X-Rite (mentally) that its OK to build this new remote profile because of what? I send this customer a copy of my book or a PDF on color management?

The amount of time and energy both we and X-Rite have spent on this silliness is crazy.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Scott Martin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1312


WWW
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2011, 11:30:09 AM »
ReplyReply

What defines minimal contact kind of thing?

I think you need to charge for something else besides the profile. Training for example.
Logged

digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9222



WWW
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2011, 11:37:53 AM »
ReplyReply

I think you need to charge for something else besides the profile. Training for example.

So sending them a PDF for $100 with a free custom profile would produce a pass for this 51st profile? Or maybe my own EULA in the email when I send them a profile that states something like “By accepting and using this free ICC profile, I agree that I purchased a PDF about color management from Andrew Rodney”?
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Scott Martin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1312


WWW
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2011, 11:43:28 AM »
ReplyReply

Might have to charge for them both. The profile and a separate "significant" service. :-] I hear you and get your point!
Logged

TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 371


WWW
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 12:02:51 PM »
ReplyReply

....All its done is produce bad feelings towards the company.  

There are many things to say about all of this, and agreements and disagreements with what many have said so far, but the overriding issue is exactly the above. But they have my money at this point, so I guess it's a done deal. The economy and the failure of the entire business community involved in color management implementation has lead to a lack of viability and competition. If there were lots of great options and more on the horizon, this would probably not be an issue.
Logged
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9222



WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 12:17:58 PM »
ReplyReply

Might have to charge for them both.

The key word here is might. But lets see if this is all a matter of semantics and a request for a separate EULA is provided. If that makes X-rite feel better, I’m fine with it. Its kind of odd that the main/master EUAL is so loosely defined for the few of the customers who will read it or that we can get a custom EULA. Its like X-rite is between a rock and a hard place. I’d prefer they (and we) just get the next dot release out and move on. But its been an interesting exercise in legal ease.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
COULEUR-ICC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


WWW
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 12:32:50 PM »
ReplyReply

For me the die is cast. So I changed my tune because I do
let my clients without proper ICC profile. I also
changed all our offers and to show that is not enriched in
icc profiles performing remote I even dropped considerably
Price
Logged

alain
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 01:46:01 PM »
ReplyReply

I've already presented this question to them and had considerable dialog about it. If you work with a customer onsite and then later want to make profiles remotely for them that's fine, totally fine! There's "significant billable services" to that client in addition to the remote profile.

What's not so good is when you offer remote profiling services to people you've never worked with. Put up a remote profiling website and watch the money come in with minimal contact kind of thing. Your email could use a little clarification as to wither you're providing remote profiles to existing clients or to new ones as that is the key, IMO.
So if somebody takes training from one person he has only the possibility to buy remote profiles from the original trainer or paying for unneeded "services" to a new one.   This for years and years...

Not only absurd, but legally very doubtful in the EU.

But as a customer I'm not bound by the EULA, so I can setup a online profiling service and forward the targets to the one I had training from and the profiles to my own customers.  Even easier someone can start a second company to do the online service and bill them for e-mailing profiles, consulting and for example website maintenance from the first company.

Oh well just write a bill :  opening packaging 10 euro, checking targets 5 euro,  making profile 1 euro, checking profile 2 euro, sending e-mail with profile 2 euro.


Logged
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9222



WWW
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2011, 01:52:29 PM »
ReplyReply

So if somebody takes training from one person he has only the possibility to buy remote profiles from the original trainer or paying for unneeded "services" to a new one.   This for years and years...
Not only absurd, but legally very doubtful in the EU.

Good point! So someone takes a class from me. Well for one, I’m doing this next month, students are encouraged to bring targets from home so we can build profiles in class. In this case the EUAL is OK. But then they go back home and in 8 months want one built remotely. Now what? I’ve done my 50 profiles for the year and now I need them to write me some legal doc that says 8 months prior they took a class from me and so its OK for me to build this one profile? How does one prove this? This is banality ridiculous! So I have to submit paper work from customers to X-Rite should they decide I’ve gone over the limit of remote profile work? Or just say screw it and go about my business as I’ve done in the past.
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad