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Author Topic: (non-Ultra) "Premium Presentation Paper / Matte" on an Epson 3880  (Read 158430 times)
optofonik
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« on: June 25, 2011, 01:01:56 AM »
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Blocked up shadows.

I researched and discovered Epson went through some issues renaming their papers". As a result, I can't figure out what the paper used to be called in order to pick the right profile and print settings in the OEM Epson driver (I'm not using any RIPs

My prints are color accurate but the shadows are a disaster. I'm using NEC Spectraview II color managed monitors and CS4.

I got the paper at Samy's a few months ago for a great price and I want to get things right on it before moving on to more expensive papers.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Mick
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 03:53:26 AM »
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Edit: removed an incorrect line.

Yes, better give them the same names In the US, EU, and an extra code like Innova does.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 01:07:56 PM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Rick Popham
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 10:58:55 AM »
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If I remember correctly, the "Matte Paper - Heavy Weight" became "Premium Presentation Paper".  The Archival/Enhanced Matte became "ULTRA Premium Presentation Paper". 

I wish they'd stop screwing around with these ridiculous names.
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howardm
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »
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Didn't the Epson marketing manager show up here a few days ago?

How about creating a magic decoder ring for all the names, new names and new new names?

They're taking a well-worn marketing page:  When you have no new product, just rename what you already have!   Shocked
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optofonik
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 11:28:48 PM »
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"Matte Paper - Heavy Weight"

I'll try it. Offhand, I think I was using "Enhanced"; I know for sure it wasn't "heavy weight".

In the interest allowing their printers and papers to be seen as the perfect combination they promote them to be I don't understand why Epson wouldn't help customers to identify the changes they have made. With all the remaining stock still on the market they are shooting themselves in the foot by not supporting people who are still using is. I can't imagine anyone just throwing away a hundred dollars worth of paper simply becuase Epson wants them to buy the renamed paper. It's stupid.


Wish me luck.
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 12:13:42 AM »
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I'm still checking some details and thus my delay in responding.

If there is interest, I'd be happy to elaborate on the naming conventions.

Let me know.

I thought it best at this time, to address some of the questions and will follow-up in 1-2 days with more information.

Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte, is the cut sheet version of Enhanced Matte Paper. 

Enhanced Matte Paper was originally called Archival Matte Paper.  The name changed several years ago.

Premium Presentation Paper Matte, (without the Ultra), is a more value priced paper.

It differs from the "Ultra" product both in weight and it has a different coating.

It carries a 4 star rating vs the Ultra version which has a 5 star rating.

On the 3880, a profile is only available for the Ultra version and that profile is not optimal for the non Ultra version.

I'm checking to see if a different profile might produce a better result.


Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.





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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 02:09:06 PM »
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If using Premium Presentation Paper Matte with the 3880, the recommended color managed system to start with is setting the Media Type to Presentation Paper Matte and use the Photo Quality Ink Jet Paper profile.  In this particular scenario use 1440dpi not 2880dpi.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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optofonik
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 02:17:11 AM »
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Dano, thank you for taking the time to research and reply. I'll try your recommended settings over the holiday weekend and post back.

I would like to better understand the naming conventions. I think it might be useful to others as well.


Mick
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 02:23:46 AM by optofonik » Logged
Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 01:45:13 PM »
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I'm working on the doc as we speak.

Might take me a little while.

Stay tuned.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.



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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 08:15:56 PM »
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Per the last post, I put together the following on how Epson names its papers. In the spirit of brevity, most of the information is in glossary form. Some of this may sound very basic, but due to the colloquial nature of photography, the same term can have multiple meanings so thought it best to include some of the basics.  Please note that some of the information may be slightly different outside of North America.

There are also 2 attachments
-My ongoing Glossary of Fine Art Terms, which may be a helpful reference.
-The Epson Star System chart showing previous and current names of cut sheet papers.

If there is interest, I would be happy to provide more details/insight into the naming of the latest Professional Papers as I was on the core team that developed those names.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.

Media
Any product with an ink jet coating that transports through an ink jet printer.

Paper
Any paper with an inkjet coating. All Paper is Media but not all Media is a Paper, e.g., vinyls.

Proofing Paper
Any paper with an inkjet coating designed for pre-press/contract proofing. These papers are NOT designed for original photography.

Signage
Reflective and backlit media designed for signage applications. Most signage media is designed for solvent based printers.

Coated Matte Paper
Any paper with a matte surface that has an inkjet coating.

Coated Gloss Paper
Any paper with a gloss surface that has an inkjet coating.

Photo Paper
Any resin coated (RC) paper that has an inkjet coating. RC papers are microporous type papers that encapsulate the paper base between two layers of polyethylene. Photo Black ink is used to maximize print quality.

Fine Art Paper
Any cotton fiber paper with an inkjet coating. Matte Black ink is used to maximize print quality. The term “fine art” has evolved into several meanings but started in the early days of ink jet where one for the first time could use papers from the fine art world. It is a naming category only, since many valuable fine art photographs are created on Coated and Photo Papers.

Cotton Rag
A legacy term that described a paper type made in the past. “Rags” have not been used in papers for decades, so technically cotton rag no longer exists but the term remains in circulation such as in Giclée, which does not have a technical meaning.

Professional Media
Any Epson media found on the Professional Imaging website and designed for use by Creative Professionals. 

Signature Worthy Papers
Epson’s best papers for photographers (mix of Photo and Fine Art).

Bright
Contains OBAs

Natural
Does not contain OBAs

Hot Press
Smooth surface

Cold Press
Textured surface

Opacity
Defines the opaqueness or ability to prevent two-sided printing from showing through.

(260), (250)
Parentheses are only used with roll paper, and the number represents gsm, which is an abbreviation for grams per meter squared. It provides a basis weight and does not describe paper thickness or caliper.

Mil
Equals one thousandth of an inch in thickness; not to be confused with millimeters (mm).

Ultra
Prefix used with cut sheet versions of Professional Papers to differentiate from non-Professional papers in the Epson Star System.

Epson Star System
A Good (3-Stars), Better (4-Stars), Best (5-Stars) system designed to help consumers/hobbyists in a retail environment choose the best cut sheet paper for their needs. Some Professional Papers are sold in this environment and always carry 5 Stars. The names of some cut sheet papers were changed with the implementation of this system and the same Professional Paper in roll format may carry its original name. 3 and 4 Star papers are not considered Professional Papers, which is why profiles for 3 and 4 star papers may not be available for Stylus Pro and Stylus Photo Printers.

 
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Mike Guilbault
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 09:43:06 PM »
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Thanks Dano!
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 02:13:09 AM »
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Proofing Paper
Any paper with an inkjet coating designed for pre-press/contract proofing. These papers are NOT designed for original photography.

Photo Paper
Any resin coated (RC) paper that has an inkjet coating. RC papers are microporous type papers that encapsulate the paper base between two layers of polyethylene. Photo Black ink is used to maximize print quality.


Dano,

What makes the difference between an RC Proofing Paper like Proofing White Semimatte and an RC Photo Paper ?  So far I can not find a difference that matters.

In ads for the x900 printers Epson praises the wide gamut of the printers and refers to Epson Proofing White SemiMatte that was needed for that gamut. Ads for a wider market.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 11:06:57 AM »
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Spoke with my colleague who is an expert on Proofing Papers:

From a technical standpoint, some RC Proofing Papers and some RC Photo Papers can be similar or the same. Proofing Papers are developed with specific white points to meet industry 4-color process printing standards and are typically on a smooth semi-matte finish. RC Photo Papers can have different surface textures and thicknesses that feel more photographic.  Some use Proofing Papers for Photographs and some use Photo Papers for Proofing.  There are two reasons for my earlier recommendation to not use Proofing Papers for Photography:

-Wedding photographers still use the term “Proofs” for letter size or smaller prints.  Thus some have mistakenly purchased Proofing Paper for their Proofs when a Photo Paper would be a better solution.

-Some fine art photographers make, “Proof Prints” before going to larger sizes.  Instead of using a letter size version of the paper they plan to use at a large size, some choose Proofing Paper thinking its designed for making Proof Prints.


Epson Proofing Paper White Semimatte has the highest L* value in the Epson Proofing Media line.  It's also capable of holding the highest ink load in the Epson Proofing Media line. That combination of L* and Ink Load leads to the largest possible gamut in reference to the 98% matching of the PANTONE FORMULA GUIDE solid coated.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 03:02:34 PM »
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Epson Proofing Paper White Semimatte has the highest L* value in the Epson Proofing Media line.  It's also capable of holding the highest ink load in the Epson Proofing Media line. That combination of L* and Ink Load leads to the largest possible gamut in reference to the 98% matching of the PANTONE FORMULA GUIDE solid coated.


Dano,

Of all the RC papers I measured, including all the Epson RC papers and so including all the Epson proofing papers, it has the highest white reflectance at Lab 97.2 0.3 1.3 (samplebook) and even more neutral from the roll that I have. Keeping that neutrality + white reflectance numbers almost exactly after being exposed to sunlight on an east side window for 80 days now. Has no FBAs or very little. A gem that should get more recognition IMHO. The white reflection is better than that of EEF and it keeps that white. EEF has a cooler white for as long as it goes.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm



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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 04:53:51 PM »
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The wonderful thing about ink jet vs AgX are the creative choices with paper types and surfaces. 

Danecdotally (Term used within Epson about my anecdotal industry observations) most artists/photographers using RC, dislike the semi-matte surface and prefer the surface of Exhibition Fiber or Luster and also the cool tone you mentioned.

But just two days ago I was visiting a photographer who raved about Premium Semimatte Photo Paper (260) and how much he disliked Luster because it reminded him of a plastic picnic table cover  Cheesy

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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JohnHeerema
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 09:33:47 PM »
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On the subject of Epson's naming conventions, I'd like to put in a vote for english ICC profile names. For example, the Epson 9900 profiles for newer media have names like:
SP7900 9900 CPBWFAP MK 1400 v1
SP7900 9900 ECG MK 2880 MK v1
Pro38 PSPP
etc.

Except for the media acronyms, this all makes pretty good sense, but the media acronyms drive me crazy. I can never remember what PSPP or PGPP is supposed to be short for, and have taken to making my own decoder lists. What's the point of an acronym like "CPBWFAP"? I'd sure like to see them expanded as Epson used to, as in:
Epson Stylus Pro 9900 7900 ArchivalMattePaper MK. 
The profiles names in this series made sense to me (or at least, they did if you could keep track of Epson's constantly shifting names!).

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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 06:13:35 AM »
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The wonderful thing about ink jet vs AgX are the creative choices with paper types and surfaces. 

Danecdotally (Term used within Epson about my anecdotal industry observations) most artists/photographers using RC, dislike the semi-matte surface and prefer the surface of Exhibition Fiber or Luster and also the cool tone you mentioned.

But just two days ago I was visiting a photographer who raved about Premium Semimatte Photo Paper (260) and how much he disliked Luster because it reminded him of a plastic picnic table cover  Cheesy

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.


We all have opinions on what looks unnatural (or for some worse; plastic). The opinions differ though and could have been influenced per generation by the plastic that was introduced in their youth and its use at home. The culture of covering the table and furniture with plasticised PVC was not that widespread over here so that may have reduced the traumas about it :-) Plastic is not a dirty word for me. I am familiar with types and grades of plastic and know the cons and pros like many are familiar with qualities of wood, metal, glass, ceramics.

It would be interesting to put 100 paper samples, RC, Fiber, Barite, behind a matt that only shows the surface of each sample, sample partly printed, and then ask a panel to qualify the surface on its plastic or non-plastic look. A design student here considered HM Photorag Baryta as plasticy a week ago. I had to tell her that the surface was more a gelatine (probably PVA though) and that it was developed to look like analogue photo paper of the past. I have seen Fiber and Baryta papers that look more 'plasticy" on my scale. It could well be that she longs for the RC paper of her past. There are a lot of different plastic surfaces, from the wax like high density polyethylene to the chalky surface of old melamine. Then there are  the "natural" texture of low density polyethylene and the wide varieties of "synthetic" textures for all other kinds of plastics. I do not think the average consumer can qualify the glossy inkjet paper surface alone as plastic or non-plastic and in reality it is 50% polymere anyway even on baryta papers.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 09:51:57 AM »
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I agree the abbreviations for the profile names are not always intuitive. 

It would be nice if the names were acronyms (American dictionary definition of an abbreviation that can be pronounced as a word) but it just will not work.

Would it be of help to those in the Forum if I posted an explanation of what each profile name means e.g. CPBWFAP = Cold Press Bright White Fine Art Paper

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 10:15:07 AM »
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I agree that great RC papers are not used by some because they are deemed to be "plastic".

I remember comparing fiber-based AgX to RC AgX papers in high school (mid-1970s).

The RC papers reduced wash times and dried quickly but they looked awful.

To me RC papers today look and feel photographic but some still equate RC with AgX technology from 40 years ago.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.

 
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JohnHeerema
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 11:21:44 AM »
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Quote
It would be nice if the names were acronyms (American dictionary definition of an abbreviation that can be pronounced as a word)

Nice grammatical catch Dano! You are absolutely correct in pointing out that I used the term "acronym" incorrectly - there's no way that most of these letter combinations could be pronounced as a word!
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