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Author Topic: MAC OSx Lion and printers  (Read 22020 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2011, 07:59:08 AM »
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 I currently have 10 years worth of Quicken data that I don't want to lose.  It appears that my best bet is to get Quicken for Windows. 

Or do as I did, switch to iBank. It imported all the data fine. Its better in some respects to Quicken which has lost its shine years ago (but there are still areas I prefer in Quicken, namely Reporting). When I found out no Rosetta in Lion, very unlikely Intuit will not update or screw up Quicken, I moved to iBank a few months ago, its working quite well.
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Andrew Rodney
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mfryd
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2011, 08:24:02 AM »
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Apple's behaviour has often irritated me as well, but that's hardly fair. We've all known since it was first introduced that Rosetta was a bridging measure, just as was Classic, and that, like Classic, it was going to disappear at some point. Nobody has pulled any rug from anyone: you're not forced to upgrade to Lion. It's for you to balance any potential benefits (of which those of us who don't have privileged access are, as yet, largely ignorant) with any disadvantages, such as being unable to run PPC software.

If previous experience is any guide, essential software for which Lion is a requirement will take a while to arrive and in the meantime there will be little downside to continuing to run Snow Leopard or even, as I still use on an old PPC-based tower, Leopard.

Jeremy


Computers are not bought in isolation.  Like cameras, they are part of a system that is intended to last a long time.

We all knew that film SLRs were on their way out when Digital SLRs came along.  Yet, the Canon 7D I just bought is 100% compatible with lenses that were purchased in the 1980's.  Lens that I buy today have features that were not envisioned in 1980 (such as Image Stabilization), yet these lenses work with full functionality on a film SLR from the 1980's.

Imagine if one of the major camera manufacturers announced that new DSLRs would only work with lenses made in the last three years, and that new lenses would not work on old bodies.  I suspect such an announcement would promote a switch to another brand.


As to being not forced to upgrade, that's not quite true.  Apple doesn't support hardware more than a few years old.  When the hardware dies you have to buy a newer model.  Those newer models won't run Snow Leopard (even though they have the horsepower to do so).

Compare this to the Windows world.  I can buy a computer today and install XP on it.  Microsoft is still providing security patches for XP.   In one of my jobs we have a dedicated hardware system that is run by a 20 year old DOS program.   We recently bought new computers and they run DOS just fine (the BIOS even includes the code necessary to make the SATA drives look like ATA drives to DOS).   Sure, we could spend tens of thousands of dollars re-writing the system to be more modern, but it's much more economical to just buy a new PC and install DOS.



The downside to continuing to use Leopard is that it prevents you from upgrading other parts of your system.  Want a new iPhone or iPad?  By December you will need Lion.


But the real issue is that Apple is phasing out the Mac.  Lion is likely the last version of the Mac OS.  Apple is moving towards the computer as an appliance.  After Lion, the Mac will run iOS 6.  Gone will be the days of a configurable computer.   Most people don't need a color managed workflow, so Apple will drop that.  Most people don't need to be able to work with RAW files, so that will be gone too.

If there is one thing that Apple has clearly demonstrated, they don't feel any need to support their high end customers.  Their ultimate goal is an integrated system based on their cloud.  The mass of non-techies is their audience.  Apple will provide the solution that they think is best, and if it's not the solution that's right for you, then it is your tough luck.

To be fair, most people don't need these features and most will be happy with Apple's decisions.  I just think it's a mistake for a high end user to plan a future based on Apple.

Take a look at what's been happening with Final Cut for a good example.   Have a library of Final Cut projects?  Sorry, you will no longer be able to edit or update them on any new computer.  The old version of Final Cut has been discontinued and the new version cannot (and will not) open projects from the old version.


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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2011, 09:35:25 AM »
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Computers are not bought in isolation.  Like cameras, they are part of a system that is intended to last a long time.
I didn't want to copy the whole post but would point out that it is an accurate presentation of Apple's corporate philosophy.  Of course there is nothing wrong with this as Apple is first and foremost a marketing company that wants to attract the largest number of customers possible.  However as was pointed out this leaves certain minor users out in the cold.  Adobe shows no signs of supporting Linux and some other open source OS that are available.  For most users those OS are not terribly user friendly and one would be hard pressed to find drivers for the printers we use.  It may be that the photographic community that use a Mac OS may need to migrate back to a Win system in the long term particularly if Apple drop support of key tools that are required. 
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kikashi
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2011, 10:01:21 AM »
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But the real issue is that Apple is phasing out the Mac.  Lion is likely the last version of the Mac OS.  Apple is moving towards the computer as an appliance.  After Lion, the Mac will run iOS 6.  Gone will be the days of a configurable computer.   Most people don't need a color managed workflow, so Apple will drop that.  Most people don't need to be able to work with RAW files, so that will be gone too.
What evidence do you have for this rather startling proposition?

Jeremy
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mfryd
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 10:35:51 AM »
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What evidence do you have for this rather startling proposition?

Jeremy

Apple's history to this point.

Apple's track record.

Steve Job's vision of the computer as an appliance.

Remember, Lion is scheduled to ship this month.  Rumor has it that it will drop support for PPC.  Apple has not yet made an official announcement to this effect.  This is not how you treat professional customers.

Apple has dropped its rack mount server product from their lineup.

Look at what Apple just did with Final Cut Pro.  One day they were happily selling licenses, promising that the new version was about to come out and it would be wonderful.  The next day they stopped selling the product, pulled it from the shelves, and the replacement product was incompatible, was missing features, and was geared to the prosumer.  Not a way to treat professional customers who depend on your product for their business.

Do you have any evidence that suggests Apple is interested in the business market?
 
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kikashi
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 03:27:35 PM »
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Do you have any evidence that suggests Apple is interested in the business market?
No. That's why I've avoided pontificating on the point as if I had.

Jeremy
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mfryd
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 03:51:03 PM »
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No. That's why I've avoided pontificating on the point as if I had.

Jeremy

Well I guess we agree that the only thing we have to go on is Apple's past and current behavior.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I believe Apple's behavior speaks strongly as to the direction they are headed.
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John.Murray
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2011, 06:39:48 PM »
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Rumor has it that it will drop support for PPC.   

Rumor?  Fact:  Apple dropped PPC support with Snow Leopard.....


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mfryd
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2011, 07:24:38 PM »
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Rumor?  Fact:  Apple dropped PPC support with Snow Leopard.....

I believe that you are incorrect.  Apple did not drop support for PPC code from Snow Leopard.   PPC code (such as Quicken) runs just fine for millions of Mac Intel users using Snow Leopard.

One of Apple's strengths is being able to run non-native code.

The original Mac was based around a Motorola 68000 series CISC processor (Complex Instruction Set Computer).

When Apple moved to the incompatible RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) based Power PC architecture, they developed technology to not only allow an executable program to include code for multiple target machines, but also technology to allow one to run code targeted for another architecture.  This technology worked so well, that parts of a program could be implemented in 68K code and parts in PPC code.

When Apple changed to the Intel CISC architecture, they used this technology to allow the existing base of PPC code to run on the Intel machines.  Processor speed has dramatically improved, and PPC software runs faster on today's Intel processors then it did on the PPC processors of a few years ago.


Apple now has this technology down to an art.  A typical user is not aware whether or not a program is native intel code, or emulated PPC code.

Apple calls the code that supports PPC "Rosetta".  Starting with Snow Leopard, Rosetta is a separate install.  This suggests that the code is an independent system that is not deeply intertwined in the operating system.

As the goal is to support existing software, there is no need for new system calls and libraries to implemented for Rosetta.  All of the development is done.


So the facts are that Apple did not drop PPC support from Snow Leopard.  They just made it an optional install.   Many printer drivers are also optional installs, as is Apple's Xcode development environment.   Clearly making something an optional install is not equivalent to dropping support.

The widely held belief is that Apple will not offer Rosetta for Lion.  There has been no official announcement form Apple to confirm this.


Whether or not the technology is included with Lion, it is doubtful that Apple is discarding this technology.  They will again put it into wide use when they upgrade the iPhone/iPad devices to a new processor type.
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Farmer
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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2011, 09:56:15 PM »
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Depends by what you mean when you say dropped support.  You can't run Snow Leopard on a PPC machine:

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP575

You can run Leopard on one:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3759

When you can virtualise older code to run on the new architecture or not is a different question.
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John.Murray
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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2011, 10:17:06 PM »
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Sorry your wrong:

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/specs.html  Please note the requirements.....

Also, you're confusing native architecture with an O/S presentation layer

Fact:  Snow Leopard's distribution media was almost exactly half the size of the preceding Leopard distribution.  Why?  Because the compiled binaries for the PPC platform were missing.  There is nothing "optional" to install  - you *cannot* run Snow Leopard on a PPC platform - period.

Fact:  Rosetta is *not* "PPC code" (whatever that means).  It is dynamic (32-bit only) translation layer that allows existing code that was previously compiled for PPC to run on the Intel platform.

Question:  Why would Apple introduce a translation layer for Ios?  What would be the purpose?

It's fun to speculate or have an opinion - couching those as "facts" is at best, misleading.....

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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2011, 12:24:34 AM »
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I have trouble imagining that Apple would discontinue widely relied upon software (Rosetta) without any sort of official prior warning.


Apple's given plenty of warning, starting with the introduction of the Intel machines, the Rosetta layer has always been strictly a transitional tool.  Snow Leopard does not automatically install Rosetta, but you can install it if necessary (hint hint).

 Not sure what "widely relied upon software" you are speaking of, but widely relied upon means a fair amount of the user base relies on it.  I know of no such software.  Epson LFP panel is definitely not "widely relied" upon.

The real question is why LFP is still rosetta only software.  The 3800 was introduced a full year after Apple moved to Intel.  LFP seems to be an ancient piece of software that should have been updated years ago unless it has no future use in Epson's plans.  Certainly at some point Epson will cease to support printers like the 3800, so the only choice will be maintaining legacy hardware to keep the legacy printer going.
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Gene Coggins
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2011, 06:36:15 AM »
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Rosetta in Lion is GONE.

However, the solution is simple for those who feel the need to migrate to Lion. Buy an external drive and clone the startup volume that has Snow Leopard. Install Lion on the internal drive and when you have a need to run a Rosetta required application, simply boot from the Snow Leopard volume. SuperDuper can easily make a bootable copy of your HD.

Gene

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2011, 06:40:29 AM »
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Apple's given plenty of warning, starting with the introduction of the Intel machines, the Rosetta layer has always been strictly a transitional tool.  Snow Leopard does not automatically install Rosetta, but you can install it if necessary (hint hint).

 Not sure what "widely relied upon software" you are speaking of, but widely relied upon means a fair amount of the user base relies on it.  I know of no such software.  Epson LFP panel is definitely not "widely relied" upon.

The real question is why LFP is still rosetta only software.  The 3800 was introduced a full year after Apple moved to Intel.  LFP seems to be an ancient piece of software that should have been updated years ago unless it has no future use in Epson's plans.  Certainly at some point Epson will cease to support printers like the 3800, so the only choice will be maintaining legacy hardware to keep the legacy printer going.

I think it would be preposterous for Epson to neglect up-dating drivers on equipment that's only been on the market for about five or six years and still performs superbly. Not saying it won't happen, but there should be laws...............
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd
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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2011, 06:42:16 AM »
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Depends by what you mean when you say dropped support.  You can't run Snow Leopard on a PPC machine:

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP575

You can run Leopard on one:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3759

When you can virtualise older code to run on the new architecture or not is a different question.


Sorry, I was caught off guard by the change of topic.

Yes, PPC machines don't meet the minimum requirements for Snow Leopard.  Just as old machines don't meet the minimum requirements for Windows Vista.

On the other hand, newer PCs will run older versions of Windows, and older software.  Newer Mac computers won't run older versions of the OS, and with Lion, they won't run older software.

If you buy a new model Mac next month (for instance one of the new MacBook Airs rumored to be released in the a few weeks) then you don't have the option of running Snow Leopard from an external disk because it won't boot.
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mfryd
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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2011, 06:50:06 AM »
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Apple's given plenty of warning, starting with the introduction of the Intel machines, the Rosetta layer has always been strictly a transitional tool.  Snow Leopard does not automatically install Rosetta, but you can install it if necessary (hint hint).

 Not sure what "widely relied upon software" you are speaking of, but widely relied upon means a fair amount of the user base relies on it.  I know of no such software.  Epson LFP panel is definitely not "widely relied" upon.

The real question is why LFP is still rosetta only software.  The 3800 was introduced a full year after Apple moved to Intel.  LFP seems to be an ancient piece of software that should have been updated years ago unless it has no future use in Epson's plans.  Certainly at some point Epson will cease to support printers like the 3800, so the only choice will be maintaining legacy hardware to keep the legacy printer going.

I find it interested that you characterize Apple has given plenty of "Warning" that Rosetta is going away, when no one here has been able to find any official Apple announcement that it will be going away at all.

Yes, there has been lots of speculation, but nothing official.  It is not at all unusual for speculation about Apple to be incorrect.


As to Apple "hinting" that Rosetta is going away by making it an optional install.  Are you suggesting that Epson and HP print drivers are also going away because they are also an "optional" install in Lion?   


There are lots of common software packages that still use PPC code.  Quicken is perhaps one of the most noticeable.  Various current software installers still use PPC code.  Some people are still using CS2 as it meets their needs.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2011, 06:58:14 AM »
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Much of what's going on looks to me like forced obsolescence. Companies save themselves money by not updating drivers and let consumers bear the cost of always buying new equipment and new software to make everything cohere, as those same companies earn fresh revenues from the forced upgrades. Often it has nothing much to do with serious improvement of anything. I looked through a list of some 250 features of Lion that came across my screen, and frankly there was nothing on it that would tempt me to upgrade from Snow Leopard. I look at each new product and each new software upgrade with great circumspection before jumping, asking myself really whether the incremental feature set is worth the comprehensive incremental cost, all collateral damage accounted for. If all consumers were to do likewise we may start to see different behaviour from the industry. Right now it's just a jungle.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd
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« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2011, 07:03:07 AM »
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Much of what's going on looks to me like forced obsolescence. Companies save themselves money by not updating drivers and let consumers bear the cost of always buying new equipment and new software to make everything cohere, as those same companies earn fresh revenues from the forced upgrades. Often it has nothing much to do with serious improvement of anything. I looked through a list of some 250 features of Lion that came across my screen, and frankly there was nothing on it that would tempt me to upgrade from Snow Leopard. I look at each new product and each new software upgrade with great circumspection before jumping, asking myself really whether the incremental feature set is worth the comprehensive incremental cost, all collateral damage accounted for. If all consumers were to do likewise we may start to see different behaviour from the industry. Right now it's just a jungle.

If you currently use Mobile Me to sync your calendars and contacts between your phone and your Mac, you will likely need Lion in order to continue that functionality with iCloud.  Apple has announced that Mobile Me will be turned off next year.

So yes, if you don't upgrade, you will likely lose functionality.  And yes, if you do upgrade, you will definitely lose functionality.   Hence the reason why many are upset.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2011, 07:08:04 AM »
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I may be wrong - it's so complicated with so many variants and so much stuff out there, but I have an impression that on the whole, Microsoft has been much better on backward compatibility than Apple. If Apple Computer keeps pulling this kind of stuff, maybe there is a Windows future for many of us. It would be unfortunate. Having recently migrated from Windows to Mac and enjoying the experience, I would move back if it became more practical to do so.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2011, 02:25:42 PM »
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I think it would be preposterous for Epson to neglect up-dating drivers on equipment that's only been on the market for about five or six years and still performs superbly. Not saying it won't happen, but there should be laws...............
Not an issue with drivers ...  the 3800 drivers are fine and Epson Printer utility is fine.  the only thing that uses Rosetta is the LFP Remote Panel 2.  The new LFP Remote Panel 3 for newer Epson printers doesn't  require Rosetta and could probably be updated to handle the 3800, but it appears to be quite a bit different from the older LFP, indicating Epson doesn't think the features in the older LFP panel are necessary.

The only thing I've ever used the Remote Panel for is firmware updates ... doubtful we'll ever see another firmware update for the 3800, so not being able to use this utility doesn't appear to be a real issue.
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