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Author Topic: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?  (Read 27013 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 02:43:00 PM »
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Andrew, if you look at the B&H links in my OP, you'll see the Beamer for $945. It comes with Eye-One Match 3.6.3 and the spectro. Basically, the bulk of this is "me assuming here" probably the cost of the spectro, and not the software - yes/no?

Maybe. I see the logic, I canít say for sure this is a fair appraisal of the software.

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Sure they have some geeky stuff that will give hard on's to some people, but will it really make better profiles? 

Yes. In some cases (for CMYK output profiles sanís scum dot) very much so.
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Andrew Rodney
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2011, 03:06:27 PM »
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I don't think I should be charged more than $355 for some software that is in my eyes nothing more than an OS capable patch.

EyeOneMatch was created eons ago and has dead end code - some of which is from the 90s. i1Profiler is a whole new, from-the-ground-up generation of software with a fresh code base that was needed to push the technology forward and support modern OSes. Thay've laid the groundwork for great things to come.

When we consider all of this and the historical upgrade costs of XRite pro software ($1500+), the i1P upgrade costs are pretty cheap, IMO.

Sure they have some geeky stuff that will give hard on's to some people, but will it really make better profiles?

Yes, the profiles really are better. This stuff really matters for pros.

I think they're being loyal to their pro customers by releasing this software at these reasonable rates. Of course their consumer stuff (Munki, Huey and i1Display) products are reasonable too and have Lion support. No complaints here. I'm glad I can move forward, but Loin is going to be a tricky upgrade to oversee with care, because of other software.
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Curt Peters
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2011, 03:12:40 PM »
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Maybe. I see the logic, I canít say for sure this is a fair appraisal of the software.

Yes. In some cases (for CMYK output profiles sanís scum dot) very much so.

Andrew, fair or not, lets not forget the fact that we've never gotten Native Software, but paid full price. Also as pro photographer's, most of us probably don't have the need for CMYK output, I think we would be happy with just the RGB output....... and at xrite's site they indicate that the RGB output only is 499.00 whlie if you need RGB and CMYK the up-grade is 899.00
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 03:17:54 PM by Curt Peters » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2011, 03:17:39 PM »
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Andrew, fair or not, lets not forget the fact that we've never gotten Native Software, but paid full price.

Thatís true for a slew of software products (many installed on my machine, many I use more often than this product). Its not like X-Rite (or Intuit or others) knew 5 years ago that they would have no support for Rosetta or would be forced to update their software for Lion. Just look how recently we get native software for Photoshop! And at a price.

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Also as pro photographer's we probably don't have the need for CMYK output, I think we would be happy with just the RGB output....... and at xrite's site they indicate that the RGB output only is 499.00 whlie if you need RGB and CMYK the up-grade is 899.00

Iím simply stating that the new software builds better profiles, both RGB and CMYK. I donít assume pro photographers donít need CMYK (they seem a perfect group to control this process).
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Andrew Rodney
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Curt Peters
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2011, 03:34:33 PM »
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Thatís true for a slew of software products (many installed on my machine, many I use more often than this product). Its not like X-Rite (or Intuit or others) knew 5 years ago that they would have no support for Rosetta or would be forced to update their software for Lion. Just look how recently we get native software for Photoshop! And at a price.

Iím simply stating that the new software builds better profiles, both RGB and CMYK. I donít assume pro photographers donít need CMYK (they seem a perfect group to control this process).

Yes true. At a pricing model similar to the one that you described earlier (70%).... and the native version's increased speed amongst other things made it worth every penny! Smiley I believe in xrite's product, but I stand firm in my belief that the pricing should be worth around 250.00 for the RGB and 500.00 for both the RGB and CMYK. Where do you stand on what the correct price should be?

Yes, I changed the wording to read " as pro photographers, most of us don't need CMYK " xrite did realize this and hence have two up-grades, one for RGB only and one for both CMYK & RGB.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 03:38:42 PM by Curt Peters » Logged

Mark D Segal
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2011, 08:08:52 PM »
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Iím simply stating that the new software builds better profiles, both RGB and CMYK. I donít assume pro photographers donít need CMYK (they seem a perfect group to control this process).

From what I've observed the quality improvement of an RGB profile using i1Profiler relative to what I produce with the 2005/6 vintage Pulse Elite is small.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2011, 09:49:52 PM »
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From what I've observed the quality improvement of an RGB profile using i1Profiler relative to what I produce with the 2005/6 vintage Pulse Elite is small.

The Pulse was a good product! The difference is greater for those coming from EyeOneMatch - as is the case with the OP. The display profiling is also significantly improved.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2011, 09:59:28 PM »
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The Pulse was a good product! The difference is greater for those coming from EyeOneMatch - as is the case with the OP. The display profiling is also significantly improved.

Yes of course, and that's why they shouldn't have canned it so prematurely. A lot of the complaint with X-Rite is this kind of stuff. For display profiling BasicColor is also excellent, but one needs to exercise care over the selection of colorimeter to match the requirements of the display and make sure it is supported. Maybe one of these decades colour management will become user-friendly, but one doesn't see either X-Rite or the OS providers contributing to this erstwhile state of nervana.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2011, 10:12:20 PM »
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Yes of course, and that's why they shouldn't have canned it so prematurely.

A necessary consequence to the GMB merger... The DTP70 got caught in that too.

Maybe one of these decades colour management will become user-friendly, but one doesn't see either X-Rite or the OS providers contributing to this erstwhile state of nervana.

I don't know. Try i1Profiler. I think they've done a great job of providing pro level capacity without the overwhelming complexity of apps like Basiccolor Display or ArgyllCMS. I'm finding it to be a pretty elegant solution for lots of my clients.

I do agree that things should be easier. I would have thought that by 2011 all kinds of CM magic would be happening under the hood so that we can spend our brainpower elsewhere.

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2011, 10:16:12 PM »
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A necessary consequence to the GMB merger... The DTP70 got caught in that too.



Necessary consequence? How so? Maybe a strategic business decision, but why "necessary"?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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PhilipCummins
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 02:14:29 AM »
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Yes, I changed the wording to read " as pro photographers, most of us don't need CMYK " xrite did realize this and hence have two up-grades, one for RGB only and one for both CMYK & RGB.

Odd - the two upgrades (EOPROF-A/B) to i1Profiler from what I read both included all the features of i1Profiler (both RGB/CMYK profiling), the cost difference was dependant on which prior i1Pro solution had before. Ie - higher end i1Pros like the i1 XT[reme] had cheaper upgrades while the i1 Basic or LT editions had the more expensive upgrade. If you're purchasing from new you get the i1 Photo Pro (RGB only) or i1 Publish Pro (RGB & CMYK) option, but for upgrades from older i1Pro's I'm pretty sure you get both unless I'm missing something?
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2011, 09:07:38 AM »
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Odd - the two upgrades (EOPROF-A/B) to i1Profiler from what I read both included all the features of i1Profiler (both RGB/CMYK profiling), the cost difference was dependant on which prior i1Pro solution had before.

Yes, you've got it. Alot for the money, no?
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PhilipCummins
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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2011, 10:10:11 PM »
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Yes, you've got it. Alot for the money, no?

Yes, I was just puzzled why Curt keeps misinterpreting (?) the pricing of upgrades over the feature set as you get both RGB and CMYK profiling (+4) with the i1Publish upgrade (either A or B).
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2011, 01:37:57 AM »
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Yes, I was just puzzled why Curt keeps misinterpreting (?) the pricing of upgrades over the feature set as you get both RGB and CMYK profiling (+4) with the i1Publish upgrade (either A or B).
What he is probably annoyed by is that the CMYK module is not an option on the upgrade offered.
You have to upgrade to the full all inclusive version of i1Publish, whereas new purchasers can opt for "i1Photo Pro" package without the CMYK capability at a lower cost than the "i1Publish Pro" package.

It has to be remembered that newcomers to colour management, without the benefit of a chronological knowledge of how that product range has arisen,  can find X-Rite's product offerings over the last year very confusing. Discontinuing Monoco Profiler, PMP and the iMatch based offering at least will make their product range more comprehensible in future.
However it remains the case that the OP's problem is not fundamentally X-Rite's problem, but has been caused by Apple's OS upgrade. As Curt says in reply 9 "if you want to get the latest you will have to pay for it" and this has always been part of the Faustian pact of Mac ownership.
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tony22
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« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2011, 07:06:21 AM »
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However it remains the case that the OP's problem is not fundamentally X-Rite's problem, but has been caused by Apple's OS upgrade. As Curt says in reply 9 "if you want to get the latest you will have to pay for it" and this has always been part of the Faustian pact of Mac ownership.

I didn't want to jump in on this because I'm not a Mac person, but I can't see how this is the only reason. The upgrade prices are the same for PC users. If it were true that a good chunk of the price increase is due to Apple OS compatibility, that would imply the PC users are paying an unnecessarily high price just to keep the pricing structure the same for both platforms.
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Schewe
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2011, 12:22:12 PM »
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I didn't want to jump in on this because I'm not a Mac person, but I can't see how this is the only reason.

Because OS updates from MSFT aren't forcing you to upgrade your software...Lion is forcing users to have Lion compatible software only. So the existing products that work on 10.6.8 won't work on 10.7. If you want to use Lion (or buy a new computer) you don't have a choice...that is the Mac issue.
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John MacLean
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« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2011, 07:18:05 PM »
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Because OS updates from MSFT aren't forcing you to upgrade your software...Lion is forcing users to have Lion compatible software only. So the existing products that work on 10.6.8 won't work on 10.7. If you want to use Lion (or buy a new computer) you don't have a choice...that is the Mac issue.

Thanks Jeff!
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2011, 08:42:51 PM »
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Because OS updates from MSFT aren't forcing you to upgrade your software...Lion is forcing users to have Lion compatible software only. So the existing products that work on 10.6.8 won't work on 10.7. If you want to use Lion (or buy a new computer) you don't have a choice...that is the Mac issue.

Jeff - as usual very clear and to the point; but I think the world of Windows is not totally benign. There are speed bumps for people up-grading from Windows XP to Windows 7-64 bit - less than for people up-grading from Vista, but Vista was not a popular OS for well-known reasons. The nice thing about Microsoft, however, is that they developed a compatibility application which users could download and implement. It reads everything on your computer and produces a lengthy report telling you what will work seamlessly in Win7 and what may be problematic. I haven't seen Apple being helpful to their clients in this way. In fact to the contrary, their cult of arrogance and insularity does the reverse. But I guess when a company nets 7 billion a quarter on phones and pads, why care about all the Mac customers who kept them in business all these years before these hay-days.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2011, 10:16:01 PM »
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Jeff - as usual very clear and to the point; but I think the world of Windows is not totally benign. There are speed bumps for people up-grading from Windows XP to Windows 7-64 bit - less than for people up-grading from Vista, but Vista was not a popular OS for well-known reasons.\

Agreed...but the issue right now, with Lion looming any day now, is what Apple (and to a lessor extent X-Rite) is and isn't doing.

It's not really like the long buildup to Win 7 (and 64 bit) because migration from XP/Vista to Win 7 has taken a long time. Yes, getting 64 bit working took a while but there was always the ability to run apps in 32 bit till 64 bit was flushed out.

Apple is drawing a line in the sand with Lion...no Rosetta, not PPC code. All at once in one fell swoop. I don't fault X-rite...I've been involved in enough software dev to know at some point one has to draw the line on backwards compatibility. X-rite is looking forward with i1 Profiler, not backwards with Profile Maker and Profiler.
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2011, 01:20:53 AM »
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There are speed bumps for people up-grading from Windows XP to Windows 7-64 bit
The "speed bumps" as you call them are mainly due to due to 64bit OSs needing different hardware drivers. That has been an issue for all OSs that move to 64bit.
What's remarkable is just how many old bits of hardware can be made to run on the newer OS despite being no longer supported by their manufacturers. A photographic example of that might be the Minolta Dimage Scan Multi Pro scanner; Minolta have been bought out and shut down by Sony several years ago, Sony won't support it, it was designed before 64bit systems were easily available so there's no original driver, but a third party driver IS available and the scanning software works fine on Win7, so the high investment in that product is still productive.

With respect to software, almost all can be made to run on W7 64, even some really old unsupported products.
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