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Author Topic: Advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890  (Read 10419 times)
gromit
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« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2011, 07:14:29 PM »
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With all due respect, I can't make sense of lists of numbers...I look at prints in hand....that's probably my "artist" side...I try not to get real techie but just do what works for me. eleanor

Fair comment, but with experience the visual and data results will become manifestations of the same thing. You'll be able to confirm suspicions of colour shifts by looking at the plots.
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Doombrain
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« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2011, 06:50:13 AM »
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I can't speak for Windows, but ABW is broken in Photoshop CS5 and/or Mac OS X 10.6 (and presumably Lion).

No, it isn't.

Also, reading through the rest of this topic i would say, "don't feed the troll".

Deanwork and Gromit should start their own forum  Wink

Regrads Lion, it's the same print sub system as 10.5/6 so i'm hoping there will be no issues other than the adobe/apple problem.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 07:00:14 AM by Doombrain » Logged
Light Seeker
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« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2011, 03:42:03 PM »
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Also, reading through the rest of this topic i would say, "don't feed the troll".

Deanwork and Gromit should start their own forum  Wink

Three things come to mind.

First . . .  I don't know Gromit, but he simply seems to be passionate about what he believes. John (Deanwork) is a world class printer, and he produces black and white prints at a level of quality few are able to achieve.

Second. . .  The scope of this forum is not limited to colour work, nor is it limited to manufacturer provided black and white solutions. While many here are satisfied with out of the box solutions,  some desire to go further and deeper. Just as there is nothing wrong with those who have chosen the manufacturer's solution, there is nothing wrong with those who wish to go beyond this.

Third. . .  The OP said "I'm searching for advanced info about b&w printing with Epson 9880 and 9890, links - books, everything is welcome.". We've done a poor job in responding to that.

Epson's ABW has made good quality b/w printing readily available to everyone. RIP's are no longer required to get nice prints. However, there are some compromises inherent to ABW, and some limitations. For example, the output may, or may not, be truly linear. The utility already mentioned, Create-ICC which comes as part of QTR (www.quadtonerip.com), is a relatively easy and inexpensive way to address this. You will need a device to measure density (e.g. a spectro) to use it.

ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism, and also impact print light-fastness. Using QTR to directly control K, and to purposefully choose which colours to add and by how much, can improve on this.  QTR gives you full control over ink limits, ink partitioning and linearization. This kind of control also means you have the abilty to print split tones, which is something ABW cannot do. QTR supports the 9880.

There is a Yahoo forum for QTR. . .

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/

There is also a Yahoo forum dedicated to black and white inkjet printing. QTR, ABW and various other topics, including custom ink mixing, are discussed. . . .

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

Whether you're interested in moving to a monochrome ink set, or not, there is a lot of material at Jon Cone's site, and on his Piezography Blog, that will still be helpful in general terms. . .

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/it.I/id.119/.f?sc=15&category=27707#

http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/category/blog/page/4/

In the blog above, I would start on the oldest page (#4) and work forward.

As a final comment I will say that if you're open to working with dedicated monochrome inks you will be rewarded with smoother gradations, longer tonal ranges, virtually no metamerism and better detail. There is an investment required, which you may or may feel to be worthwhile.

I truly hope you find some of the above helpful.

Terry.
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TylerB
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« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2011, 05:05:27 PM »
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Thank you Terry for a great post. There is indeed a universe of wonderful things going on in the world of ink and B&W, just as there has always been a unique, committed, and masterful community involved in B&W before digital.
Tyler
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MHMG
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« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2011, 12:17:15 AM »
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ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism, and also impact print light-fastness. Using QTR to directly control K, and to purposefully choose which colours to add and by how much, can improve on this.


Except that in some cases monochrome ink sets rely on additions of color pigments blended directly into the ink formulation in order to achieve visually neutral grays or near gray tones. In this situation with respect to lightfastness (not other properties) it seems to matter only from an academic rather than practical perspective whether the blending of additional colorants to achieve the desired final tint takes place in the ink formulation or later as the result of extra color droplets being jetted by the printer nozzles.  True carbon black is typically more brown in tone than neutral when ground to the fineness needed for inkjet nozzles. To neutralize this naturally brownish tint, other color pigments like cyan and magenta can therefore be inserted into the total ink formula, or added by the printer driver during printing. Hence, third party "full monochrome" ink sets may seem in theory to be more lightfast but often in practice are less stable than their OEM B&W printing mode counterparts because the chosen magenta pigments, for example, are less stable than the ones used in the OEM inks.  One really needs to test the printer/ink/driver/media/coating combination to know for sure. In my tests, numerous monochrome inkjet prints show early stages of light fading that is on a par with "traditional" color photos. They settle down and perform better than color prints over larger light exposure doses, but nonetheless should be treated as only moderately lightfast by discriminating collectors who might be concerned with delicate hue and tonal retention in the print over time.

regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 12:22:34 AM by MHMG » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2011, 12:36:19 PM »
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ABW uses colour inks in addition to black (K), to create a neutral print. The can lead to metamerism...

Can leas to metamerism?  Two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, producing a match?
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2011, 04:21:09 PM »
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Hence, third party "full monochrome" ink sets may seem in theory to be more lightfast but often in practice are less stable than their OEM B&W printing mode counterparts because the chosen magenta pigments, for example, are less stable than the ones used in the OEM inks.

Thanks for bringing this up Mark. I think the decision in this case would be based on aesthetics and/or relative ease of use.

My comments were made with HP's PK in mind, and using it as a neutral base for creating a dilute monochrome set. HP's PK seems quite "lightfast" and it remains relatively neutral as it fades.

Terry.
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2011, 04:32:34 PM »
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Can leas to metamerism?  Two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, producing a match?

From the ColorWiki. . .

Metamerism - "The phenomenon by which two materials that match under one circumstance appear different to different viewers or under different lighting. Metameric mismatch occurs when tristimulus values are the same but spectral characteristics are not."

Ernst Dinkla has been on a crusade to see the term "colour constancy" used, rather than "metamerism". I had considered putting both in but unfortunately, colour constancy was left out when I hit "Post".

Terry.
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2011, 04:35:33 PM »
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There is indeed a universe of wonderful things going on in the world of ink and B&W, just as there has always been a unique, committed, and masterful community involved in B&W before digital.

Things have simply moved from chemical mixing to ink mixing.   Wink

Terry.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2011, 04:52:05 PM »
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From the ColorWiki. . .
Metamerism - "The phenomenon by which two materials that match under one circumstance appear different to different viewers or under different lighting.

Correct (and what I wrote). But in the context of the print, what two materials were you referring to?

Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.

Without metamerism, we’d be in bad shape (how would say a display and a print, or a contract proof and press output match?)
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2011, 05:02:08 PM »
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Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.

I was commenting on colour inconsistency / metameric failure.

Terry.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2011, 06:16:37 AM »
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Taking a print and having it appear differently when moved under a different illuminants wouldn’t be metamerism and think the term Ernst is referring to in this example is color inconsistency. Metameric failure would be accepted by some as well.


Some color gurus on another list became quite aggressive in their messages when "metamerism" was used loosely.. So I started to describe it as "color inconstancy to different light sources".  Which is the formulation that covers the practice of taking just one sample/print from one light to the other by one observer. As it will not be understood by the common print maker I add "metamerism" next to it on other lists. Would an abbreviation like CI*^ be short enough for the lazy ones and suggest "authority" on the subject ?  I think the term "metamerism" has those qualities so will be hard to get rid off.

With a B&W print (= varying value/tone, same hue, same chroma/saturation) I think that there is a condition that comes close to the "two (or more) samples matching to one light source for one observer", or "two (or more) samples not matching to one light source for one observer", which is roughly what metameric match, metameric failure to  light, stand for. That point of view was supported by some (actually off line, with references to research done)  in the discussion that became so aggressive. The fact that a color deviation is much easier to see in B&W prints than the same deviation is in color prints is a sign that our eyes have a reference in B&W prints that they do not have in color prints. Which is getting close to the metameric conditions. Print areas that only differ on value/tone are a good reference. An overall color shift will not be so easily discriminated but one tone range deviating in hue from the rest will be seen immediately. The same can be seen in pictures where only the hue varies or where only the saturation varies. Odd ones, I know but a good friend made some 40 years ago (Munsell book next to the easel) so I was familiar with them before they became available with a few steps in Photoshop.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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digitaldog
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« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2011, 10:47:05 AM »
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So I started to describe it as "color inconstancy to different light sources". 

I have no problems with the term (I like it). I suspect the sentence here was just missing the ‘in’ in front of the word consistency:

Quote
Ernst Dinkla has been on a crusade to see the term "colour constancy"

The only reason I brought this up (and questioned the use of metamerism) was so we can proceed using these proper terms or at least avoid using the term metamerism incorrectly (something I am guilty of doing in the wee past).
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Andrew Rodney
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http://digitaldog.net/
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