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Author Topic: dell 2405  (Read 49340 times)
Ray
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« on: July 29, 2005, 06:55:12 PM »
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and as for the price, i believe you can even get it cheaper than 1000$ us now....i have even seen it for around 800$!!
Such equipment is usually cheaper in the US because of the larger market, but I see that Dell are now offering this monitor at A$200 less than just a few days ago. It's now the equivalent of US$1000 and about the same price as the LaCie 22" CRT in Australia.

To cause even more indecision, Lacie produce a 21" LCD, the 321, which is getting rave reviews. Amongst other features it boasts a 10 bit gamma correction (as opposed to the usual 6 or 8 bit for most LCDs), and a CRT-grade color gamut of 72% NTSC. (Is 72% of NTSC good? I wouldn't know  Cheesy ).

The current price in Australia is almost exactly double the 22" CRT. I doubt that LaCie are making an LCD monitor that's better than their top of the line CRT. Perhaps almost as good, so it seems if you want an LCD monitor as good as a CRT and the same size, you have to pay at least double the price. Would this be right?  Cheesy
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jani
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2005, 11:27:10 PM »
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Keep in mind that any adjustments to the display other than the analog brightness adjustment on the monitor will alter the video card's LUT tables reducing the number of luminosity values per 8-bit channel you have to display on the monitor.
Hmm, good point, and stupid of me to forget that possibility.

While you're probably right in this case, it is not given that it's the driver's adjustment of brightness and contrast that's the most detrimental to color accuracy. It depends on the quality of the panel's controls -- how badly does the panel take to squeezing gain (contrast), and what happens when you squeeze the backlighting -- and exactly what the graphics driver is tweaking in the first place.

It is, for instance, entirely possible that ATI's display drivers utilize MCCS to send at least some of the brightness/contrast/gamma/geometry/whatever adjustment commands to the display panel. That's what MCCS is there for, but ATI of course doesn't document whether they're using that, nor does Dell.

I've contacted ATI support with a set of questions regarding exactly what the gamma, brightness and contrast controls do, since that is completely undocumented. Well, except for "RTFB", which is beyond my combined patience and capability.

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In plain english that means that your monitor will suffer in color accuracy and is probably why you are having issues with softproofing (not counting many other variables such as light...)
Yes, that's absolutely a plausible explanation.

I'll keep on checking with alternate methods; I've just downloaded trial versions of MCCS aware applications, and I'll see if these give me greater control over the actual panel settings.

It may just be that the verdict "not suitable for color critical work" is warranted. If that is so, I'll definitely return the panel to Dell and say, "sorry, not good enough", and order a LaCie 321 if it's still in stock. I'd rather sacrifice the 320x1200 pixels of real estate than predictability and color accuracy.




Now for an excursion into the joys of the predictability of vendor software:

I've spent a few hours now researching how this brightness/contrast thing might work, so I may (yet again) be a bit too tired to do this properly, but I created a Granger test chart to see if it would be possible to see and problems with the display. I have, after all, calibrated the Samsung successfully (that is, without resorting to software controls).

Thanks to Windows's actually well-functioning Control+PrintScreen function, I was able to capture a screenshot of the Granger chart as I had placed it on the divider of the two monitors:

http://folk.uio.no/jani....405.PNG (587 KB)

What you should see here, is that the right side of the chart (Dell) shows clearly worse color gradations than the left (Samsung). That is, unless your monitor is really, really bad. I can even see the differences on the.

That I couldn't see this last night either might suggest that I was incredibly tired (how did I find my bed?), or that something changes with logout/login. And in case someone wants me to check the obvious: No, Adobe Gamma is not running at startup.

So what's happened?

Well, late at night yesterday, I did an attempt at finding some software controls for the disabled OSD settings, working from the assumption that adjusting things in the monitor would be better than doing it from ATI's control panel. I then noticed that there was one part of the monitor installation disk I'd ignored, and that was a document describing what Dell calls "driver installation". "Aha!" thought I, that's where I'll find the controls for better adjustment!

Guess what it does. :cool:

It does three things that I have noticed:

1) Updates the driver information database.
2) Installs Dell's factory profile to Windows' profile directory.
3) Removes the custom profiles from the available list, and sets the factory profile as the default.

Thanks, Dell, that was helpful. You could have at least asked sometime during the installation process whether I might want to keep my recent profile active or not.

For the record, the Granger chart now only looks slightly different on the two displays, and the difference is in a slightly softer and smoother expression on the Samsung (which has higher pixel density). If I'd left the brightness at minus whatever, the Samsung would clearly dispaly a wider range of colour intensities.


I'll try recalibrating for a higher luminance target when I'm awake again. And then I'll turn my critical eye back on.

Using that Granger chart may just have been one of the more clever things I've tried.
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Jan
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2005, 06:05:15 AM »
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but Samsung's pride and joy would appear to be its new 82" true high definition LCD TV (1920x1080), 1200:1 contrast ratio; color gamut of 92% NTSC and of course, super PVA. Phwoar!
But can you calibrate it?
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Jan
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2005, 07:11:35 PM »
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Perhaps I should not be so dismissive. It's probably good for all purposes other than critical work involving a high degree of color accuracy. After all, you've spent good money on this monitor and I believe it is good value. Just not ideal for photoshop nuts .
Well, I'd go one step further, and say that it could be good for PS nuts, too. Just not for people who are particular about equivalent color representation on the display and on print.

But it does require quite a lot of ambient lighting to do that. A regular desk lamp with an 11 watt tube and mirror placed just above the screen and helps ... wait, here's a couple of images explaining it better:




Okay, the lighting should obviously be a bit more even, but the point stands: ambient lighting helps, because there's less strain on the eyes.
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Jan
61Dynamic
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 10:59:02 AM »
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If you are at all serious about making prints you know you will have to calibrate the monitor and probably get custom profiles for your printer.
Of course, and I'm deliberating whether I should get the Blue-Eye Pro with the LaCie 321 (for hardware-to-hardware calibration), or if I should get the Eye-One Photo and have the option of making my own custom print profiles.
The Blue-Eye is nothing more than the original Eye-One (not the Eye-One 2) and according to DryCreek the Eye-One 2 will turn out better calibration results.
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abaazov
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2005, 02:51:58 PM »
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well then i must be doing something wrong. i hae had the dell for a month now, have tried calibrating it i dont know how many times, it is always too bright. it is absolutely a beautiful screen, but i just cant get the image to match the printout (or vice versa). the screen is always much brighter, and when i say much i mean much. can anyone suggest what the best way to remedy the situation is..short of buying another screen.
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abaazov
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2005, 10:00:57 PM »
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no the monitor is too bright, that is the prints are not at all what i see on the monitor (after calibration of course, i use monaco xrite). it is not that the image that i see on the monitor is necessarily too bright, it is just that the print is not at all as bright as the image on the monitor. i dont think it's the calibration device, i have used it before to calibrate other screens with a higher level of success. i dont know what the problem is with this dell, i just can't calibrate it even close enough. very very annoying.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2005, 11:03:41 PM »
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well then i must be doing something wrong. i hae had the dell for a month now, have tried calibrating it i dont know how many times, it is always too bright. it is absolutely a beautiful screen, but i just cant get the image to match the printout (or vice versa). the screen is always much brighter, and when i say much i mean much. can anyone suggest what the best way to remedy the situation is..short of buying another screen.
That's easy. Increase ambient light to match the screen. Any monitor-print match will only be valid for one lighting condition. Increasing ambient makes the print brighter and the monitor relatively darker; decreasing ambient has the opposite effect. If your monitor is "too bright" it's because your room is "too dark".
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Ray
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 07:46:21 PM »
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Jonathan,
Notice I mentioned this kludge fix as a last resort if the brighter lighting doesn't fix the problem. Increasing the lighting under which the print is viewed will certainly make a dark print look lighter but it does not have a reciprocal effect on the image on the screen, ie. make the screen image look darker; rather it makes the screen image look washed out and less contrasty.

I get the impression Abaazov's prints are still slightly too dark in bright daylight. If that's the case, he needs to create the conditions such that the screen image looks darker. I assume that the monitor's brightness adjustments are already at a minimum, therefore the only alternative I see is the kludge approach I suggested, unless Abaazov is able to get a different calibration result through perseverance and use of different settings, reducing the RGB values through the video adaptor and/or the monitor's controls, whatever.
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abaazov
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2005, 11:21:46 AM »
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well for whatever its worth guys, and obviously i am no expert, like i said before, i believe the color rendition to be quite accurate. in the monitor calibration process, i changed the room lighting parameter to dim and recalibrated a few times and i have gotten respectable results. i must point out again though that the final product varies greatly depending on the paper i use, namely with the premium luster the printout is very very good. i have done a few more tests with velvet fine art and the last couple of prints are pretty darn good. but i would have to do more tests with "tougher" images to be sure, although thats no fun given the cost of this beautiful paper. with the enhanced matte i am still having problems, i am using the epson profiles. either way, every single print, regardless of paper, looks much better and much truer when viewed in daylight, and i guess thats the way i want it. for my money this screen is worth it, as i am not a professional, and i doubt i'll be hanging up my prints in any gallery anytime soon.

amnon
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abaazov
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2005, 11:15:07 PM »
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hi, i just got the dell 2405. i was wondering if anyone out there has it, and if you could advise me as to the parameters to use when calibrating it. i am using monaco optix xr.
also, when i plug the monitor using the dvi outlet, i have no contrast option. does that make a difference when i calibrate? should i be using the dvi outlet?
thanks...
amnon
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jani
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2005, 08:06:55 PM »
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Here are some preliminary results after calibration, and impressions from the calibration process, which is a first-timer for me, although I've been convinced that calibration is healthy for a good while. Maybe someone will find this useful, perhaps the more recent members?


Introduction

I calibrated my recently acquired Dell 2405FPW (and my old Samsung SyncMaster 710T) with a borrowed Eye-One Proof set. The result was (unsurprisingly) an improvement over Adobe Gamma, but unfortunately not as good predictability for prints as I'd hoped. Printer calibration may rectify that. Viewing quality is pleasing, and I'm pretty sure I can live with the 2405FPW after this.


Setup and Equipment

As a minor note, I'd like to point out that it's very convenient to have a secondary monitor to place program windows in when the initial steps of the calibration process are done. It's especially important on DVI connected displays, where e.g. contrast is set in software rather than through the OSD (on-screen display).

My relevant equipment is:

Displays: Dell 2405FPW and Samsung SyncMaster 710T
Graphics adapter: Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro Atlantis
Printer: Epson R1800
Photo editing software: Adobe Photoshop CS2
Profiling/calibration: Eye-One Proof (borrowed from a friend's workplace, lucky me!)


The Profiling and Calibration Process

Since there were no instructions in the box (they have been misplaced, I suppose), I just inserted the CD and installed Eye-One Match 3 from there.

I started the software, and the user interface seemed quite okay. I selected monitor profiling, and advanced mode.

The first menu meeting me to select LCD, CRT or Laptop, so I changed to LCD from the default CRT.

The next menu asks me to select target white point, gamma and luminance.

This is where 2405 owners must beware; setting the target luminance to the LCD recommendation of 140 is only possible through the use of adjustments in the graphics driver combined with those of the OSD. Keep in mind that a warmer white point makes it easier to reach the LCD recommendation of 140.

I've tried setting the target white point to both 5000 and 6500. 5000 is what they recommend for proofing, and that's what I've ended up using.

I left gamma at 2.2.

At this point, I'm allowed to make an ambient light measurement. I already suspected that the ambient lighting in my apartment's workroom/guestroom wasn't up to par, and measuring as advised shows that while the luminance level is surprisingly good, the color temperature is approximately 2900 K instead of the recommended 5200 K. Oops. But there's nothing I can do about that right now; I probably have to repaint the walls and get white bookcases. ::

The next step is to calibrate the Eye-One. That was really easy, just placing the device on the holder with the ceramic calibration tile. A minor annoyance is that if you go back and forth between the steps, then you're still required to re-calibrate the device, which is an annoying waste of time. I'd like to be able to say "no, thanks, I just calibrated the thing, remember it for me".

Now to what turned out to be a tricky step; placing the Eye-One on the monitor, and as close to the center as possible. This is a problem both with my Samsung 710T and the Dell 2405FPW, and I suspect with any LCD, until the operator's brain engages and notices that the rubber band connecting the counterweight and the LCD holder is adjustable.

A more serious problem is that unless I tilt my monitor a bit or drag the USB cable underneath and behind the monitor, the LCD holder has a tendency to not lay flat, but rather leave a small gap at the bottom. This creates an uneven pressure, which of course can result in coloring artifacts near the top. And that's where the sensor is closest to.

Now comes the "bummer" for those of us using a DVI display: adjusting the contrast. I can do this by right-clicking on the empty desktop and selecting "ATI CATALYST™ Control Center", selecting View->Advanced View, and "Color" from the Graphics Settings. Then I'll see a nice contrast slider. At this point, it's wise to check that you're adjusting the right graphics adapter, as in the one controlling the monitor you plan to calibrate ...

While the Eye-One Match 3 instructions tell you to "Set the contrast to 100%", this means that the ATI contrast slider should be set to 200 (the maximum). I hope. :cool: I leave the other settings ("Gamma" and "Brightness" in their neutral positions, 1.0 and 100 respectively.

Clicking on "start" then initiates the procedure for locating where I've placed the Eye-One. When that's done, it's just an easy matter of resetting the contrast to a sane value, which is indicated by a black bar being as close to the middle of a green field (and a zero above it) as possible. For my graphics card and the 2405FPW, a contrast setting of 105 has consistently proven to be the nearest I can get.

The next step, RGB adjustments for setting the white point, is another tricky one with the 2405. There are two choices; RGB controls or RGB presets. The recommendation is to use the controls if the monitor supports it, and that is true for both my monitors.

The first attempt failed spectacularly when the Eye-One failed completely to detect adjustments in the blue channel above "50" (the midpoint), while I could clearly see the colors change onscreen. Ouch. I went back and wiped the ceramic tile for self-calibration with a lens microfiber cloth, and with the next two attempts, the Eye-One cooperated. I then did another calibration just for the sake of writing this up, and now suddenly the red channel adjustments above midpoint were undetected. Restarting the adjustment procedure for RGB doesn't help, setting the correct red channel value becomes guesswork. Am I supposed to be at 51, 52 or 53? My only clues are the changes in green and blue. Redoing the calibration yields the same problems with red. That's three failures out of five attempts.

Now to set the luminance. On my display, I had to set the OSD setting to 0 -- zero, and the Catalyst brightness slider to -87 (139.4-139.6 cd/m^2) or -86 (140.3-140.5 cd/m^2).

The final step is the easiest, the one where the Eye-One measures all the colors and hopefully shows some good results.

Edit:
During the last run, I also had a temporary problem with a green cast to the black background when the device was doing the last step of profiling. I aborted the step, touched the bottom part of the device, and restarted that last step. No cast.

But after this step, there is no stepping back to the previous point, and that's very bad user interface design. What if I want to rerun the last step because I realized I'd accidentally touched a color, brightness, contrast or gamma control and the result sucked? Well, obviously, I have to close the program completely. Come on!


So, What About the Results?

Here's a summary of the last runs tonight:

Run 4:

Color temperature is excellent, spot on. Ditto for gamma. Luminance is off; the target of 140 isn't reached, the measured luminance is 182.7. The minimum luminance measured is 0.9. That doesn't seem so bad.

Run 5 (attempting to detect changes in red again):

Color temperature is 4900 (off by 100 K), gamma is 2.1 (off by 0.1), luminance is 179.8 (off by 39.Cool. The minimum luminance measured is 4.5, and the screen's contrast is lousy.

I'm sticking to the profile from run 4.


The Important Part: How Good Does It Look?

Looking at a selection of a handful of images that I took on July 2nd, the colors look slightly more natural than they did before. And yes, the difference is only slight, compared to the manual adjustments I performed with Adobe Gamma. But shadow detail and gradation is also slightly better, and I see a marked improvement in the highlights; that's where my real gain has been.

Why did my highlights improve? Well, the color temperature has come down from around 6000 K to 5000 K, the contrast is up by 5%, and the brightness is down by a lot. These were the things that Adobe Gamma couldn't do for my eyes, and I've had as clear an advantage from profiling as I've expected and hoped for.

The Prints

The printer uses the canned profiles from Epson. I had a vague hope that I could use the Eye-One Proof to calibrate this one for my selection of papers (it's supposed to support "RGB easy"), but I could find no way to work around the error message for selecting an RGB printer.

For testing, I selected a picture of a rose, taken on a sunny day:



Soft-proofing revealed that a lot of the background, particularly the darker areas, were well out of gamut for one of my chosen papers of the day, Epson Premium Glossy Photo. The other paper, Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, did not show as much out-of-gamut (huh?). For the Epson paper, I created a hue/saturation adjustment layer based on a fuzzy selection of the out-of-gamut colors, and tuned down the saturation until I was close to in-gamut. I also did one version where I just converted to the Epson paper's profile before printing.

The results were somewhat surprising. The printed images are very similar in color tones, but the color balance is different from what I see on my monitor. The rose looks more pink on screen (regardless of soft proofing or not), and I'm tempted to say that the image on paper is both more red and yellow, and slightly less natural-looking. I think the representation on-screen (pre-softproofing) is closer to what the rose really looked like. But the yellow on this printer is really good.

Ilford's supplied profile for smooth pearl seems definitely better than the canned profile for Epson's own papers, or it's the paper itself. The Ilford paper's color gradations are smooth and nice, whereas Epson's paper seems to give me something similar to a posterization effect in the yellow, green and dark green transitions, especially visible in the lower right corner. This is visible in the soft proof, too. The Epson paper seems to deliver a wee bit more detail, but I didn't use USM, Focus Magic or anything similar to bring out the details in the first place, so it's really hard to tell. I think I'll be using smooth pearl quite a bit in the future, though.


Ruminations On Quality and Results

While some of the things I write may indicate that I'm unhappy with the performance of the calibration device -- which would be a correct observation -- I think that there may be reasons other than quality control on the manufacturer's side here.

For one thing, it was a borrowed device, it's been used many times by the owner. The way the device is constructed, it's entirely possible for dust to accumulate near and around the sensor. It's also possible for dust and grime to do their worst on the ceramic calibration tile. This probably happens when the owner/user isn't careful enough with handling. I'll be sure to notify the owner about this when I return it, their own calibration results may be off by quite a bit if they don't pay attention.

I'm mostly satisfied with the results for my part, though I wonder what I can do to fix that imprecision with red/yellow, except re-profiling, re-calibrating and hoping for the best. And if I squeeze things in that end, will my blues, cyans and magentas suffer next?


Conclusion

The Dell 2405FPW can definitely be profiled and calibrated, and it resulted in a clear improvement on both measurable and perceived image quality. This is in spite of technical problems with the profiling process.

Soft proofing still leaves a bit to desired for accuracy, but I'll work a bit on that by re-profiling and re-calibrating a few times more.
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Jan
Ray
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2005, 08:44:21 PM »
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The results were somewhat surprising. The printed images are very similar in color tones, but the color balance is different from what I see on my monitor. The rose looks more pink on screen (regardless of soft proofing or not), and I'm tempted to say that the image on paper is both more red and yellow, and slightly less natural-looking. I think the representation on-screen (pre-softproofing) is closer to what the rose really looked like. But the yellow on this printer is really good.
Jani,
Thanks for taking the trouble to describe your calibration attempts. The impression I'm getting is that you basically haven't succeeded in a proper calibration yet. As you say, it could be because the calibrator has been knocked around a bit, or maybe the canned Epson profiles you are using are simply not accurate enough.

I'm using an Epson 7600 with Bill Atkinson profiles. What I see on my 5 year old 19" Viewsonic CRT does not quite match the printed output interms of red saturation and over all 'pop'. But what I see with softproof on and 'simulate white paper' ticked does match the print output almost exactly.

I usually make a copy of the broadly adjusted image and fine tune that in relation to a specific paper profile with softproof on. This usually involves making a general increase in saturation (or specifically just the reds) and perhaps a local contrast adjustment.

The whole point of calibration is to provide the confidence that, when you hit the print button, the results are going to match what you expect and what you see on your monitor in all respects; degree of shadow detail, accuracy of colour and tone etc.

You don't seem to have arrived at this state yet, with your 2405.

I'm relying on you, Jani, to get a perfect match before I make the decision to buy this LCD monitor  .
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Ray
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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2005, 09:22:30 AM »
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But can you calibrate it?
Or more to the point, can you calibrate it sufficiently well to make viewing your photos on it, as a slide show, a pleasurable experience, which might even save lots of ink and paper.  Cheesy
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jani
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2005, 08:10:34 AM »
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jani, what is that contraption you have unearthed?? is there another, simpler way to get more ambient light? i'mnot sure i understand, is ambient light supposed to make everything else around me brighter, to compensate for the brightness of the screen? if i decrease the brightness on a monitor that has been calibrated, does that render the calibration completely useless?
It's not a contraption, it's just a regular desklamp, for illustrating the point about needing more ambient light.

Ambient light is the light around you, generated by the Sun, reflections, light bulbs, light tubes, ...

Having brighter ambient light in the workroom works just the same way as the difference of looking at a window to the sunny outside and being in the sunny outside.

But it's still just a poor solution for the problem.
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Jan
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2005, 10:03:27 AM »
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Perhaps I should not be so dismissive. It's probably good for all purposes other than critical work involving a high degree of color accuracy. After all, you've spent good money on this monitor and I believe it is good value. Just not ideal for photoshop nuts  Cheesy .
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Ray
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2005, 10:31:16 PM »
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I've got no experience calibrating LCD screens. Best ask those people at Rob Galbraith's site what the secret is  Cheesy .
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61Dynamic
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2005, 09:30:26 PM »
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ok, but it wont do anything to help me with the calibration problem, i.e. after calibrating the monitor the prints are too bright. or will it?

Sorry, I'm not followng. You saying the prints might be too bright if the abmient lighting was higher?

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The big question with the Dell 24" is whether the brightness control on the monitor is just playing with the numbers coming in, or whether it's actually putting less juice into the backlighting.

If the latter is the case, and providing it doesn't sacrifice 'evenness' in the backlighting, and calibration still works OK, then why shouln't this monitor be quite satisfactory?

-Milt
There is no question that the brightness controll on the monitor is adjusting the backlight; it is.

The problem is that with the backlight at its dimmest, the monitor is still too bright.
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abaazov
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2005, 12:35:53 AM »
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is there a simple way to measure ambient light?
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2005, 11:17:45 AM »
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And when you view the print in proper lighting it will be all jacked up. Ray, you should be ashamed of yourself.
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