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Author Topic: Sony 24mp line up  (Read 11153 times)
Ray
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2011, 08:16:52 PM »
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I believe the A77 and NEX-7 have a base ISO of 100.

Yes. It seems to be the case, which could be considered a disadvantage for such a high pixel-count sensor. But it also depends on the degree of IQ difference between ISO 100 and ISO 200.

On the D7k, there's a significant difference in DR and noise between ISOs 100 and 200, whereas on the 50D there isn't.  In fact there isn't any difference at all. The only purpose of ISO 100 on the 50D, as far as I can tell, is to allow one to use a slower shutter speed to create blurring effects.

I wasn't aware of this fact when I fist started using the camera. If I had been there would have been many occasions when I would have used ISO 200 at F4 instead of ISO 100 at F2.8.
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Ray
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2011, 10:31:34 PM »
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First impressions of the A77, compared with the D7000, don't look promising regarding deep-shadow noise. There seems to be some magenta-cast problem. However this may not be an issue in the production models. I understand in the following shot from the A77, Imaging Resources used a pre-production model.

The black cup and napkins have been raised with the middle slider in levels.
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tsjanik
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2011, 10:15:38 AM »
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I'm taking it with me to my grave. .......


Hi Dave, LOL, quite an endorsement.  How are you doing with Irene?

Tom
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 12:16:07 PM by tsjanik » Logged
lowep
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2011, 11:15:11 AM »
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"Some advantages of the NEX (over a dSLR) are the lack of vibration from mirror-slap and also lack of vibration from the shutter (due to the electronic first curtain), until after the exposure"

Super  Cheesy but how does it fare outside the camera store?

Does EVF effect reliability in extreme conditions and battery drain that maybe depends as much on the design, efficiency & cost of the new Sony line-ups power system compared with existing range of DSLRs than if any given model has EVF or not, and while I am at it what about weather proofing?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 11:40:53 AM by lowep » Logged
pegelli
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2011, 12:20:44 PM »
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"Some advantages of the NEX (over a dSLR) are the lack of vibration from mirror-slap and also lack of vibration from the shutter (due to the electronic first curtain), until after the exposure"

Super  Cheesy but how does it fare outside the camera store?

Does EVF effect reliability in extreme conditions and battery drain that maybe depends as much on the design, efficiency & cost of the new Sony line-ups power system compared with existing range of DSLRs than if any given model has EVF or not, and while I am at it what about weather proofing?

lowep, I think you're the kind of person that can dream up disadvantages of any system if you put your mind to it.

Any system you know that has no disadvantages?  Wink
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pieter, aka pegelli
lowep
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« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2011, 12:37:11 PM »
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I guess it depends on who you ask  Grin

actually what I was hoping was that somebody with experience with one of these things would be able to confirm that yes the EVF is more reliable than the old-fashioned SLR mirror systems and yes the latest generation Sony systems do use power more efficiently and yes the weather proofing is as good as with comparable DSLRs

but this by no means diminishes the acuity of your observation. 
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pegelli
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« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2011, 12:51:01 PM »
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lowep, I thought you were asking a retorical question, since you asked how these held up "outside the store".
None of them has been "outside the store" (for the general public I mean) since release is still a few weeks away.

From the press events the announced weather sealing of the A77 and new 16-50 has been tested a bit in a power boat and held up nicely.
Officially the Nex7 and A65 are not weathersealed, but no word on any experience what that really means.
I haven't found anything on battery life in actual use conditions yet.
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pieter, aka pegelli
lowep
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« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2011, 01:15:15 PM »
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Here is what Sony says:

Sony is taking professional quality imaging and artistic shooting options to new levels with the introduction of the new α NEX-7 camera...the viewfinder provides a bright, detail-packed, high contrast view of still images and video, with approximately 100 percent frame coverage and a wide field of view that rivals pro-grade optical viewfinders...Two control dials on the top of the camera are complemented by a control wheel, giving users three customizable, manual controls and the ability to create images with the flexibility and precision of an advanced DSLR camera.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 01:21:35 PM by lowep » Logged
pegelli
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« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2011, 01:36:43 PM »
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Here is what Sony says:

and.........  Huh




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pieter, aka pegelli
lowep
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2011, 01:45:25 PM »
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Sorry for not making my point more clearly that I try to do by adding bold:

Sony is taking professional quality imaging and artistic shooting options to new levels with the introduction of the new α NEX-7 camera...the viewfinder provides a bright, detail-packed, high contrast view of still images and video, with approximately 100 percent frame coverage and a wide field of view that rivals pro-grade optical viewfinders...Two control dials on the top of the camera are complemented by a control wheel, giving users three customizable, manual controls and the ability to create images with the flexibility and precision of an advanced DSLR camera.

what I am really trying to figure out is could this be a viable alternative to a full frame DSLR for my particular needs? I guess the only way to find out is as you say wait and see what users who buy one have to say so best for me to withdraw for now with thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 02:00:46 PM by lowep » Logged
pegelli
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2011, 02:15:13 PM »
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OK, I see what you're geting at
Well, for me it's just marketing speak. Let me give you my 5 c how I read these terms:

professional quality imaging: without a better definition that doesn't tell us anything, there's professionals that shoot with a holga  Grin
rivals pro-grade optical viewfinders: what does "rival" mean: better, as good as, almost as good, just as useful,..... for me it's horses for courses, OVF's will still trump in clarity, brightness, immediate feedback but are lousy for judging dof of the final picture and can't zoom in. EVF's will do much better at judging dof and can zoom in instantly for a precise focus check but will still (and some say always) lack the direct feedback and clarity of an image projected on a ground glass.
flexibility and precision of an advanced DSLR camera: I would read this as "advanced DSLR camera with the same sensor size", but maybe I'm too forgiving for the marketing dept here.

Obviously they want you to read more into it than I just wrote above and rush out to buy the camera unseen, but if you really analyse it their use of words it's just marketing speak that needs to be validated by real life test of people we trust (which is why we come to LL  Smiley)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 02:17:01 PM by pegelli » Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
aaykay
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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2011, 02:26:18 PM »
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Sorry for not making my point more clearly that I try to do by adding bold:

Sony is taking professional quality imaging and artistic shooting options to new levels with the introduction of the new α NEX-7 camera...the viewfinder provides a bright, detail-packed, high contrast view of still images and video, with approximately 100 percent frame coverage and a wide field of view that rivals pro-grade optical viewfinders...Two control dials on the top of the camera are complemented by a control wheel, giving users three customizable, manual controls and the ability to create images with the flexibility and precision of an advanced DSLR camera.

what I am really trying to figure out is could this be a viable alternative to a full frame DSLR for my particular needs? I guess the only way to find out is as you say wait and see what users who buy one have to say so best for me to withdraw for now with thanks for the feedback.

Well, the Full-frame Sony A900 has one of the largest/brightest 100% optical viewfinders among all makes/models, regardless of pricepoint (larger than the Nikon D3s/D3x).  The NEX7 and A77 viewfinders have been compared favorably against the A900, for size/brightness under most shooting conditions.   One additional advantage is the additional information that is present on the top and bottom of the EVF, that is not available in the OVF.  Sure, being an EVF, it will of course consume some power and display some lag when it comes to panning fast and so on, but for most shooting situations it should do just fine.

As with any such thing, there are pluses and minuses from all such systems, whether it be an OVF-based one or whether it be an EVF based one and you need to pick the one that works best for you.  What I would not do, is to bad-mouth something that you have never used or worked with.
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pegelli
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2011, 02:50:28 PM »
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Well, the Full-frame Sony A900 has one of the largest/brightest 100% optical viewfinders among all makes/models, regardless of pricepoint (larger than the Nikon D3s/D3x).  The NEX7 and A77 viewfinders have been compared favorably against the A900, for size/brightness under most shooting conditions.   ..........[some text deleted for space considerations].......

As with any such thing, there are pluses and minuses from all such systems, whether it be an OVF-based one or whether it be an EVF based one and you need to pick the one that works best for you.  ............


Quote from: Michael Reichmann
The EVF on the A77 is the largest, brightest, highest resolution and most contrasty electronic viewfinder yet, from anyone. Incidentely, it is the same 2.4 MP OLED device as the one on the A65, the NEX-7, and the FDA-EV1 accessory viewfinder for the NEX-5N.

Is it good? Yes, it's very good for an EVF. I would go so far as to say that it is much preferable to the dim and small reflex viewfinders found on most reduced frame DSLRs. This then begs the question how does it compare to the viewfinder on a full frame DSLR like the Sony A900.

Not so well. The viewfinder on the A900 is one of the brightest and largest found on any 35mm DSLR ever. Sony's new OLED EVF, as good as it is, is up against what may the gold standard, and it doesn't quite deliver.

While very good as EVF's come, Michael doesn't seem to agree regarding your statement on how it compares to the quality of the A900 OVF. Since I have an A850 (OVF nearly as good as the A900) I can't wait to actually hold and test one of these new OLED EVF's myself to further make up my mind.

On the other hand I fully agree with you that EVF's have some inherent advantages over OVF's in different aspects (dof preview and zooming, see my post above).
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pieter, aka pegelli
douglasf13
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2011, 04:31:44 PM »
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I remember the time they stated that a Full-frame version of the  Leica M-rangefinder was an impossibility and that at best it will need to be a 1.3x.....well, we have had a FF Leica-MR for a while now.  As long as the mount is large enough (and in fact the Sony E-mount is larger than the Full-frame Leica M-mount) a FF will arrive.  My prediction.

I'm not sure what that has to do with ISO 100, but the big difference there (and with 135 digital cameras in general) is that Leica has decades worth of legacy lens users to make happy. Nex is an entirely new system with lenses that are designed from the ground up for Aps-c. While Sony could fit a 135 sensor in the Nex mount, if they moved the electrical contacts, why would they? To sell Leica lenses?
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2011, 06:03:25 PM »
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56 mpx..... of bad quality!
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2011, 06:54:23 PM »
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No it won't! The 24mpx sensor of the Nex-7 will give to the camera much better video quality and worst photo quality than the Nex-5, same will apply to the a77 vs. a55 comparison! Hence the decision of Sony to cut the real viewfinder from the a-77! The 24 mpx sensor results in exactly 3x1920pix and hence 3x1080 vertically (after we throw away the top and bottom parts to create 16:9 from 3:2). This means, that there will be exactly 9 pixels recording for each of the imaginary 1920x1080 pixel, so...., there will be improved video sharpness because there is no interpolation in translating the 24mpx info to video2k, there will also be better video color, because again, there is exact color info for each of the 1080x1920pix info from the 9 pixels that are an RGB poled mixture!!! There will be worst photo performance because: a) the sensor has solutions to improve video (e.g. stronger AA) but damage stills b) the bloody sensor is too small to avoid noise, which will result in better per pixel definition of the Nex-5/a55!!!
 Why no FF? Simply because FF is wrong for filming...(!), too shallow depth of film....(!), in cinema 35mm film is shot vertically (in a width of 22-24mm) which is identical to APS-C sensor! Even the REDs have an APS-c sensor. No pro videocamera has an FF sensor and since Sony traditionally is a major video market leader and is (like everybody else) going hybrid, ......NO FF!!!!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:32:45 PM by fotometria gr » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2011, 08:07:36 PM »
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Hi,

I guess that the major issue is that a stills camera has an OLP (Optical Low Pass) filter that has been optimized for small sensor pixels. Whatever sampling method is used for video it will not be supported by an optimized OLP. On the other hand there will be a significant oversampling and that may be used for antialiasing in software but I'm not sure in camera electronics are fast enough.

If downsampling is done by binning there would be little negative effect on noise characteristics weather done in hardware or software. If unused pixels are simply discarded noise will significantly increase. But the difference between 24MP and 16MP would be small, anyway. Barely measurable?

Best regards
Erik

No it won't! The 24mpx sensor of the Nex-7 will give to the camera much better video quality and worst photo quality than the Nex-5, same will apply to the a77 vs, a55 comparison! Hence the decision of Sony to cut the real viewfinder from the a-77! The 24 mpx sensor results in exactly 3x1920pix and hence 3x1080 vertically (after we throw away the top and bottom parts). This means, that there will be exactly 9 pixels recording for each of the imaginary 1920x1080 pixel, so...., there will be improved video sharpness because there is no interpolation in translating the 24mpx info to video2k, there will also be better video color, because again, there is exact color info for each of the 1080x1920pix info from the 9 pixels that are an RGB mixture!!! There will be worst photo performance because: a) the sensor has solutions to improve video (e.g. stronger AA) but damage stills b) the bloody sensor is too small to avoid noise, which will result in better per pixel definition of the Nex-5/a55!!!
 Why no FF? Simply because FF is wrong for filming...(!), too shallow depth of film....(!), in cinema 35mm film is shot vertically (in a width of 22-24mm) which is identical to APS-C sensor! Even the REDs have an APS-c sensor. No pro videocamera has an FF sensor and since Sony who is traditionally a major video market leader is (like everybody else) going hybrid, ......NO FF!!!!
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2011, 08:18:31 PM »
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Hi,

I guess it may depend on viewing conditions. Electronic viewfinders show actual image and are more flexible.

The APS-C cameras using EVF should be compared to the Sony Alpha 700 which had similar sensor size.

I use both Alpha 55 and Alpha 900 and there are advantages to both.

My view is that you would go with different lens systems for APS-C and full frame. A 24-70/2.8 is in my view not very practical on an APS-C camera for instance, even if it would be very sharp.

Best regards
Erik

While very good as EVF's come, Michael doesn't seem to agree regarding your statement on how it compares to the quality of the A900 OVF. Since I have an A850 (OVF nearly as good as the A900) I can't wait to actually hold and test one of these new OLED EVF's myself to further make up my mind.

On the other hand I fully agree with you that EVF's have some inherent advantages over OVF's in different aspects (dof preview and zooming, see my post above).
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2011, 04:49:25 PM »
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Hi,

I guess that the major issue is that a stills camera has an OLP (Optical Low Pass) filter that has been optimized for small sensor pixels. Whatever sampling method is used for video it will not be supported by an optimized OLP. On the other hand there will be a significant oversampling and that may be used for antialiasing in software but I'm not sure in camera electronics are fast enough.

If downsampling is done by binning there would be little negative effect on noise characteristics weather done in hardware or software. If unused pixels are simply discarded noise will significantly increase. But the difference between 24MP and 16MP would be small, anyway. Barely measurable?

Best regards
Erik

It's more important than you think Erik, as you mention, "unused pixels will significantly increase noise" and this happens on the NEX-5 (or any other photo camera that does video). On the other hand there is also much more simplicity in the camera logic on the NEX-7/a77, less electronics and hence more reliability. I think that Sony's intention with the NEX-7 (or the a77 if one chooses) is to give the a900/850 professional user that needs video, a cost/space effective way to do so, either with the a77 or with the NEX-7+adapter. I also think that people have not realize yet that a77 and (the same performance) NEX-7 will prove to be (with the proper lens) the best "interchangeable lens cameras" in the market for video quality! I bet they will prove to be much better than Canon Eos7 or 5mkii, but much worst for stills, even from the NEX-5. Of course you are right on the importance of OLP in stills performance. Best regards Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:40:43 PM by fotometria gr » Logged
Greg D
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« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2011, 10:16:56 AM »
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Quote
Some advantages of the NEX (over a dSLR) are the lack of vibration from mirror-slap and also lack of vibration from the shutter (due to the electronic first curtain), until after the exposure,, all of which conspire to make it a lot more hand-holdable than an equivalent SLR.

Huh?  What does mirror-slap and shutter vibration have to do with handholding?  For me anyway, hand tremor would obliterate any blurring you might see from these sources.
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