Epson 7900 - LLK channel clogging, banding - what a disappointment!

[jeverton]

Thanks David!

I talked to Scott today at American Injet Systems and he also confirmed a growing problem with the LLK channel and users with the Epson 7900... It may just have something to do with the LLK ink formula that causes the print head to fail.  But without extensive scientific research we cannot prove this claim at this juncture.  I've also ordered the CLF007P and CLF007P+ Inkjet Nano Cleaning fluids for all types of water based pigment inkjet inks to apply on the capping station and rule out a clogged channel.

However, Scott and I both agree the only real way to ultimately solve the issue is to engage Decision One and replace the print head and recalibrate the printer.  What I find ironic with the entire experience is the lack of professionalism and support from Epson for a very well-known issue within the forum communities.  Perhaps it is time to shed more light on the subject matter with Epson's leadership team?  Who knows maybe they will turn things around and make things right with the consumers?  Time, money and more time will only tell.

If anyone else out there is experiencing similar issues with the LLK channel on an Epson 7900/9900, I would certainly appreciate a response.  Collectively our voices can carry and be heard up the corporate ladder.  I'm for one not willing to invest over $3500 in a professional grade printer only to be told two years later (with less than 108 prints using the second set of 350ml inks) to spend another $2800 in labor, parts and repairs to correct a known issue!  

It's time to raise our voices, document the issues and pursue Epson with the vigor of this community.
 

[Alexandra M]

Hi everyone!

Jeverton, I am sorry that I did not reply to you right away. Somehow this Luminous Landscape notification with your "topic reply" got trapped in my junk mail, and I just noticed it today.

Here is my update on the Epson 7900 LLK ink clog issue: sadly, there are NO updates. Nothing, still, have resolved this ink clog problem. Nothing. And ZERO support, still, has been offered by Epson to me so far.

I have ordered a solution from American Inkjet Systems. I have, too, had a lengthy conversation with Scott there about the LLK ink clog problem. Just like you, Jeverton, I was told by Scott that it is probably an issue with the ink formula. Scott suspects that the LLK ink used as a final coat on Epson 7900 prints to give them consistent texture (I am paraphrasing here, of course) and therefore it is formulated to dry faster than the rest of inks. His explanation, even though not scientifically proven, certainly makes sense. I used his solution "as prescribed", but unfortunately, it did not clear up the clog. I do hope that the solution works for you Jeverton, if you did order it (side note: the solution, although has no odor, made me VERY nauseous, even though I left the room immediately after spraying it every time. But I tend to be very sensitive to chemicals). 

In the meantime, I have been trying to communicate with Epson. (This is, to remind everyone, is AFTER I used all the common routes of contacting Epson tech support, via phone or email, multiple times).

A couple of people from this thread were nice enough - thank you, guys! - to email me privately and gave me email addresses of Epson individuals who helped them with with their Epson "out-of-warranty" printer issues in the past. So, I emailed those 2 Epson people with personal nice messages, detailing the LLK ink clog problem, and asking for any assistance. Got NO reply. NONE.

Then, searched for "Client relations" (or "customer relations") department on Epson website - which is different from "customer service." A "higher up" department, if you will. I found an email address there, and sent yet another message detailing my problem. I always mention right away that my printer is out of warranty and that is why I am emailing them (and not tech support). A lady replied to me, I got very hopeful. She asked me for additional info, such as a copy of my printer purchase invoice, and to tell her which departments I have contacted in the past. I provided all of that. Then she replies with: "Sorry, I have discussed this with our pro imaging manager, and since your issue began after your printer warranty had expired, we cannot assist you." Are you KIDDING me?

Mind you, I am not even asking for any free service from Epson (even though, this is obviously a DEFECT!). All I want them to do is communicate with Decision One, and provide me with a knowledgeable technician. I want to have a CLEAR idea of how much this will cost me, instead of less-than-qualified tech guy coming over and playing - as one of you said - a guessing game at my expense!  Perhaps give me a fixed rate repair option, instead of $175/hr at "no one knows how many" hours, and "no one knows how many" parts.

I guess this is to be continued. If I have any "break troughs" with Epson, I will be sure to post an update here. I am extremely disappointed with Epson customer service (or lack thereof), and with their plain refusal to even acknowledge this 7900 and 9900 LLK Ink Clog DEFECT!

Jeverton, perhaps you should too, contact their Customer Relations department. Even though my results were negative, you might have a different outcome.

As for "raising our voices and documenting the issues" - I'm game. This is just ridiculous.   

[jeverton]

Please send me any contact names or departments at Epson so I can elevate the issue.  I've also taken the liberty to contact the vendor where I purchased the unit and asked the owner for assistance in contacting Epson management.  This is highly irritating, unprofessional and warrants additional pressures from the consumer and business owners.  So net-net... the more names we can identify with this issue the easier it will be to approach the leadership team.

Jeff

[Alexandra M]

@Jeff,

I have sent you a private message with all the Epson contacts and additional info.
LL private messaging system is a bit weird - the message is not showing in my Outbox - so if for some reason you did not receive it, please let me know.

And if anyone else is experiencing Epson 7900 or 9000 LLK clogging issues and can shed any additional light on this 'situation' - please share.
Feel free to message me with any questions as well.

[jsch]

Two and a half stories:

1) I bought and an Epson V750 scanner. It had a defect when it arrived. It wouldn't change between focus planes. I was refered to the official repair center for this type of Epson scanners. It was not far away, so I decided to bring the scanner in personally. Wow. That was an experience. The "workshop" has a front end which is selling office stuff like folders, pens and birthday cards. And a DHL agency was there too. The place was so dusty that I feared for my scanner. It felt like being in bad movie. To make the long story short. The scanner had two visits there in total. They told me everything in the inside is exchanged. But the problem continued.
Epson on the phone was not very helpful. I then took a test negative and scanned it on 3 different V750 scanners. This clearly showed that my scanner was out of spec. I called again and again and I let my assistant call them on a day basis. Finally they gave up and said after a lot of back and forth send your scanner in. Without any letter, call or something I got the scanner replaced with a working one which was not new and came in a strange box without the usual shock absorbers and wrapping.
Everything happened during warranty.

2) I helped a young photographer with her start up. She bought a Canon 5D Mark II. The first problem: An unbelievable amount of noise at 400 ASA. An amount my 5Ds showed around 12800 ASA. She send the camera in the noise was gone. But also the ability of the camera to autofocus. She send the camera in for repair – 5 times, really. Nothing changed. She compared the camera with 3 other 5Ds she borrowed from friends one of mine was in the game too. Hers worked not, the others did. Canon Service treated her like the girl who doesn't understand technology. Interesting side info: She won the Cannon Award for one of the 5 best young fashion photographers and she told that the service guys. But they didn't care. I met her on a Canon roadshow for professionals. She told me that the problem still not was fixed. I went right up to the Canon Professional service stand on the fair, because I know some of the guys for years and told them to help her with her issue because she really is a very gifted photographer. Additionally I told her to contact the people who gave her the Canon photography price. She got her camera replaced the next week. Everything happened under warranty.

2 1/2) In this forum I once sang the song of Sinars brilliant customer service. Just to learn a few months later that this is history now. I just had a simple question which still isn't answered. Believe me, I tried hard to get the answer.

What do I want to say? Today I believe you have to make pressure in an reasonable firm tone. Don't stop till your issue is taken care of.

So Alexandra: Don't give up. I give you moral support.

Best,
Johannes

[Burnsides]

Greetings Folks,
    So last year around December(printer just out of it's 2 year warranty) I noticed the same problem on my green channel on my 9900.. Overnight a bunch of closely spaced green channels just stopped firing.. No amount of cleaning(power, and superstrongcleaning) alleviated the problem.. I stuck to mostly black and white prints and posters and such that were green light(have to keep the money rolling in). Eventually the green channel failed completely. Service was 2500 bucks, a new head, and inkpump assembly). and despite the fact that the tech failed to attach the ink lines correctly(flooding my studio with ~1 liter of ink)... After cleaning up the mess, he was able to get my printer printer correctly.. Upon examination, the old ink head had ink that flowed cleanly from ALL the nozzles. It was not clogged.. Most likely delaminated.
It is one year later and I am getting the same problem.. The printer is temperature controlled(65-75deg) humidity controlled(28-50% tops), only genuine inks, that I mix every time I swap an ink from that bank..
   I'm kinda ready to toss this thing out the window, but my prints are one of the few things that separates my business from everyone who just does digital only work.. Less than 1 year for a new head?  Seriously? What do I do here? 
                     Thanks!!
                     Burnsides

[davidh202]

I really have to question the rationalle of the LLK being used as a "coating"  and formulated to dry faster, consequently causing the clogging issues some are having. 
If the LLK was being used that way it would certainly be the first ink to be used up and needing replacementand,and that is not the case. It is in fact the LK that gets used the most and requires replacement sooner!
There seems to be no consistant issue that is the same on every problem machine according to my recollection of reading many 'clogging' threads. Reports vary from Green, Magenta,PK,MK, to LLK channels clogging.

 
Alexandra... sorry to hear your issue has not yet been resolved.
David

[jeverton]

I learned that Jean-Christian Rostagni is writing an article for Photo Technique magazine on the reliability of the 900 and 890 series, the best maintenance techniques and tips for them, and this very problem of head failure.  He has started a poll on the Epson Large Format usergroup here:
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/surveys?id=3081227
 
The vote gathers votes on whether people have had problems with any Epson L.F. printers and one can vote for every printer as apply.  Please consider doing that, even if you never had any problem, as it seems like we might get a better idea then if we are all hallucinating or if Epson is in denial.
 
Additionally, if you have had a serious issue with a x900 printer, you can direct your experience directly to  jeanius@artmessengers.com  so that he may report accordingly.

[Alexandra M]

David - good point. It seemed to me, from reading many user posts, that there are many more LLK clogging issues in comparison with any other color, but I am probably just predisposed to paying more attention to them since they mimic my Epson 7900 problem.

Burnsides, thanks for sharing your experience. That is just what happened with my LLK channel. So, you spent $2500 on parts and service and the printhead wasn't even clogged? And now the problem is back? YIKES!!!
What does "printhead delamination" mean exactly? It it normally caused by extremes in temperature?

It took Jean-Chrisian's survey from a link provided by Jeff. So far, it seems like approximately 50% of x900 owners who responded have had issues with their Epson 7900/9900 printers.

I am pretty much ready to put a lid on this Epson headache and to start shopping for an non-Epson pro imaging option.

[Burnsides]

Greetings!
    The piezoelectric effect is just that certain crystals"flex" when a current is applied to them.   So piezo fired liquid dispensers are made by laminating several components together..  There is the nozzle plate, the actual piezo plate, the ink transport channels, and a whole slew of electronic wiring that gets the current to the piezo.. I say either delamination or or destruction of the electronic control of the channels.. I'm less prone to think that the electronics are bad, as some nozzles spray sideways and lightly at that.. Perhaps the electronics fried, and dumped too much current to the print head?  Uncertain.. All I know, is that it does not seem to be a clog.
    The new repair scheduled for this coming wed has a $2000 part order.. Epson told the tech to replace all components. This repair includes control boards. So this is going to be a 3K repair.. A new Epson 9900 is only 5K with the discount. I will have spent $5500 in repairs in under three years.  That's a lot of money.. I don't have to tell all of you small business folks out there how tight the economy is, and how much a repair bill of this magnitude hurts a photography business.
  I think it's QUITE important to do a forensic on the head after the repairs.. Is it really a clog, a head delamination, or an electronics issue(in the head, there is a small board in the head itself). We need to determine if this is a head manufacturing problem, board issue, or whatnot..
I did hear something from my earlier repair guy who said that they tried to clean the heads, and after cleaning with fluid coming from all the nozzles, the channels will still not fire.. They said that this was true for the 7900/9900 printers.  BTW same electronics and heads for both..
   I shall update you after the repairs are completed..  I am scared that I am chasing good money after bad.  Do any other manufacturers have these kind of issues?  
     Thanks folks...
     Burnsides
      

[Alexandra M]

Thanks for the explanation @Burnsides.

So after you spend that amount of money (ouch! ouch! ouch!) it might make sense for you to also purchase an extended warranty this time around. Supposedly you usually have an option to purchase it after a tech repairs your machine. Good luck with the repair.

It has become clear to me that owing a 7900 or 9900 machine without an extended service plan is a crazy gamble. I wish I knew that going in.

Speaking of which, does anyone know for how many years you can keep purchasing an extended warranty on Epson x900 printers? Do they cut you off at some point, or can you keep extending it for every year you own the machine, regardless of how old your printer is? ...Just curious.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Speaking of which, does anyone know for how many years you can keep purchasing an extended warranty on Epson x900 printers? Do they cut you off at some point, or can you keep extending it for every year you own the machine, regardless of how old your printer is? ...Just curious.

According to the Epson website; one additional 2 year warranty can be purchased anytime during the first year the original warranty is still in effect.  Warranty period then expires 3 years from the date of purchase.

[Burnsides]

The 2 year warranty is a bit spendy.. I bought the 1 year extended.. and the printer died right after. I would have totally done this were I in a printhouse or 24/7 production environment.  Again.. I see many folks here with "light" usage..   
  To contrast.. I know folks with a few 3800 series that have higher linear footage a year than I do, no issues..  One does expect a certain increase in reliability with the increase in capitol outlay.. I'd have preferred a service plan pricing schedule rather than a warranty.. Service plans are generally 10% cost of the instrument/year for 5 year instruments.  This is a reasonable price given the cost of ink and paper(consumables).

[Burnsides]

Also.. It's really not all that difficult to swap out the print head.. Although the electronic and mechanical items that I rebuild on a daily basis are several orders of magnitude more so..  It's a very simple mechanical device. However.. It is not possible to buy replacement parts for the Epson. No heads, no ink assembly, no wiper blades..   Basically, you can replace the cutter blade, the ink and the paper.. Perhaps those little overrun strips as well.
   I do recall being at a seminar for the Epson 9900 at the Cambridge Mariott, and one of the engineers for Epson said that this was one of the most reliable printers that they had ever made..
Oh well..

[Jeff Magidson]

It has become clear to me that owing a 7900 or 9900 machine without an extended service plan is a crazy gamble. I wish I knew that going in.

Alexandra: I think you hit the nail on the head. Anytime you purchase a large/expensive piece of specialized equipment, you need to really consider buying the extended warranty to avoid "predatory" repair charges. 10+ years ago a photographer friend purchased a Fuji Pictograph photo printer and ran in to the same problem. Once the printer was out of warranty and it stopped working, it was $1,600 for this part and $700 for that part.

~ Jeff
 

[Alan Goldhammer]

The 2 year warranty is a bit spendy..

currently in the US, Epson offer a $1000 rebate on the 7900 and the 2 year extended warranty is $1400 so if I do the math correctly the extra warranty is really only $400.  Of course this is today and doesn't apply to those who paid full price without a rebate.  I don't have a 7900 (only a trouble free 3880) but I wonder if there are any 3rd parties out there that offer service contracts or if Epson won't provide parts to such third parties.  Certainly with many household appliances and other stuff one can get third part warranties (most new cars in the US can be warranteed through one's insurance company for up to 7 years on major repairs).  In many cases such warranties are not worth paying because of the reliability of the appliance but I guess in the case of a large format printer the story is different.

[Burnsides]

Normally I buy the extended warranties for everything.. This thing smacked my budget pretty hard just to get it in the door.  I expected a few things..  It to work for more than 3 years without issue. The ability to get parts and fix it myself, and if not.. A reasonable repair cost.. My company bills out less for me to fix a ~$1mil mass spec.

[Alan Goldhammer]

The ability to get parts and fix it myself, and if not.. A reasonable repair cost.. My company bills out less for me to fix a ~$1mil mass spec.

Yes, it would be great to get a repair manual and do this stuff.  It is likely not a difficult chore and I've repaired my share of laboratory instruments over the years though nothing as costly as a mass spec!   Epson's approach to this is unlike anything I've seen.

[Burnsides]

I actually have a copy of the full service manual.. Completely useless without the Service software and access to replacement parts. 

[migreen]

I agree with this "predominant advice" accurate for devices that are purely electronic, or close . . .    but I find it less useful for devices like printers which have a substantial mechanical component!