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Author Topic: An interesting publication: Lens Comparison Test-Hasselblad vs. Mamiya  (Read 17116 times)
design_freak
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« on: August 30, 2011, 05:23:14 PM »
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http://www.mamiya-usa.com/landing/files/Mamiya_LensTest_Report_Final.pdf

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neilwatson
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 09:01:37 PM »
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This was an interesting test and well presented.  I liked the practical way the test was performed.

I was surprised the Mamiya RZ lens did so well as the 110mm and 150mm are not the best performing lens in the RZ range.  Would it be right to assume that the more modern RZ lens with the floating elements would do even better ( eg 50mm uld, 140 macro etc )
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JdeV
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 03:26:29 AM »
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Have I misunderstood or was this test done with all the lenses wide open?

Not terribly interesting if so (given that they would typically be used at least a couple of stops down from this). Most people shooting medium format want to know how comparatively sharp lenses are at their best...not fully open.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 10:47:41 AM »
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yes, I was looking for the aperture value for the test data too.  Since the lenses were not mounted one would have to assume these were wide open.
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lance_schad
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 03:23:24 PM »
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If anyone is looking for one of these "Pearl Optical RPT-15A Resolution-Power-Test-Projectors" one is available on ebay for $399 euros link.

Lance
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 03:30:54 PM »
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It says all the lenses were wide open and focused at infinity.
It doesn't say a lot, but I have tested most of these lenses myself, and I totally
agree that the 80mm LS is the best of the tested lenses.

Henrik
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 04:59:31 PM »
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Henrick I've tested the mamiya 80 LS too with the aptus 12.  Its not bad at all, however have you tested the schneider 80mm xenotar (either f/2.0 or f/2.Cool

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JV
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 05:08:12 PM »
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People who use the Hasselblad HC 100mm/f2.2 lens as their main lens will look at this test and say,
oh really, the HC 150mm and the HC 80mm are better lenses than my 100mm...
they will have a good laugh and continue to use their 100mm lens...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 05:12:49 PM by JV » Logged
henrikfoto
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 05:09:10 PM »
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Henrick I've tested the mamiya 80 LS too with the aptus 12.  Its not bad at all, however have you tested the schneider 80mm xenotar (either f/2.0 or f/2.Cool



Hi Eric!

No I have not. They are both just for Rollei?

Henrik
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 09:48:17 PM »
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People who use the Hasselblad HC 100mm/f2.2 lens as their main lens will look at this test and say,
oh really, the HC 150mm and the HC 80mm are better lenses than my 100mm...
they will have a good laugh and continue to use their 100mm lens...

Completely agreed. I mean, this is almost a joke.

And also note that it's being tested purely as a lens without DAC corrections. I mean, it's no secret that Hasselblad uses DAC to pull out everything from the lenses possible. In fact it's a proud fact. You'd be hard-pressed to beat the HC100 2.2 or even the HC35-90 if there was a competing zoom lens.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 09:51:22 PM by BrendanStewart » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 04:52:45 AM »
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People who use the Hasselblad HC 100mm/f2.2 lens as their main lens will look at this test and say,
oh really, the HC 150mm and the HC 80mm are better lenses than my 100mm...
they will have a good laugh and continue to use their 100mm lens...

Exactly. I have all 3 of them. Maybe my eyes are wrong... after putting over 75K of shots per year on these lenses where about 75% is on the 100. Hasselblad could have just welded the 100 on my body...


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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 05:04:55 AM »
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Perhaps the point of the post was to bring up the fact that Mamiya's are usually under rated by most and can hold their own against other well regarded lenses?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
Dustbak
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 06:45:45 AM »
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Not sure about that. Pretty much every test I have read over the last 15 years tried to show that Hasselblad lenses were outperformed by Mamiya lenses.

I have not seen that many people claiming that Mamiya lenses are bad. A myfirst Sony type of body, shutter lag that allows a shot of espresso or even lenses that fall apart when looking at them or make so much noise you could seriously hurt your hearing but optically? I think most people acknowledge Mamiya makes damn sharp lenses and the LS lenses seem to be even better.

These tests appear mostly to have come from some sort of weird inferiority complex. To me it appears that way.

Anyway. The outcome of this test with regard to the differences between the HC80/100/150 are totally different than my own experience from daily use.
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ondebanks
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 06:49:29 AM »
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Completely agreed. I mean, this is almost a joke.

Brendan, the testing methodology looks perfectly sound. How could it be "a joke"? Rather than dismiss the scientific method outright (it really bugs me when people do that - climate-change deniers and the like), wouldn't you rather suggest that the tested random sample HC100 lens could have been drawn from the "poorer" side of the sample distribution? Or perhaps the lens is very dependent on DAC corrections (personally I'd see that as a negative, but if you only ever use DAC-aware software it won't matter to you). I'd settle for either of those Hasselblad-face-saving interpretations. It satisfies Occam's razor, leaves everyone happy with what they have, and gives the test the respect it deserves.

People who use the Hasselblad HC 100mm/f2.2 lens as their main lens will look at this test and say,
oh really, the HC 150mm and the HC 80mm are better lenses than my 100mm...
they will have a good laugh and continue to use their 100mm lens...

JV, I say exactly the same to you as I did to Brendan.

Exactly. I have all 3 of them. Maybe my eyes are wrong... after putting over 75K of shots per year on these lenses where about 75% is on the 100. Hasselblad could have just welded the 100 on my body...

Dustbak, ditto. Nothing wrong with your eyes; you either have a better sample or the lens really needs its DAC support, that's all.

Ray


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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 08:58:17 AM »
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If the test was carried out fully open at infinity then it doesn't tell us much at all!

Especially as HC lenses are optimised in the nearer field - the field that is most used.

Perhaps we would see somewhat different results if it was repeated at 3-4m at f8?

A comprehensive and fair test would have done so to give us the true impression of how each lens performs at a given set of factors.

Naturally it contradicts our own findings. Wink.

David
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David Grover
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ondebanks
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 10:15:28 AM »
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If the test was carried out fully open at infinity then it doesn't tell us much at all!

It does - it tells us how the lenses perform wide open at infinity. As would be used in astrophotography, for instance.

Especially as HC lenses are optimised in the nearer field - the field that is most used.

Holy crap! You're kidding me? Remind me to never buy a Hasselblad H system.
[Did I mention I do astrophotography?  Wink ]

I really am surprised by this. I postulated two "excuses" for the HC lens relative performance above; now it seems I must withdraw them.


Naturally it contradicts our own findings. Wink.


Are these findings published anywhere?

Ray
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 12:22:16 PM »
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Yeah, well you know.... What's important to Astrophotographwrs is important to the core demographic of MF manufacturers. :rolleyes:

I agree with David, this really proves nothing. And I'm calling the B.S. Flag that not a single Hassy lens outperformed a Mamiya lens.

Ray, enjoy your tall glass of Kool aid.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 12:52:19 PM »
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I once heard a report on a new study that revealed that walnuts have incredible health benefits.  It all sounded great and I was about to go out and buy some until I realized that this 'scientific' study was paid for by the walnut growers association. I'm not saying these tests are invalid, and as someone who does test a lot, I know how hard it is to satisfy the internet forum community.   It's always good to know if there are any vested interests in tests, and who the sponsors are, as well as what wasn't tested and why.  I don't know, maybe the lenses were chosen totally randomly, but why take new mamiya lenses and compare them to ones from a rental house (presumably with unknown used condition)?   I guess in the case of the pearl projector it would have been difficult to test stopped down - but as people have pointed out what does that prove unless you are planning to shoot wide open at infinity a lot?  And if a camera system was developed with DAC as part of the design, is it a fair comparison to test without? What camera system in the future is not going to take advantage of DAC?

There are some fantastic mamiya lenses especially if you count the 7 and RZ series, and I don't think anyone would argue that the lenses for the 645 are not sharp.  But would anyone expect less?  The parts of the optics that need to be tested and compared are the way the lens draws, near far focus optimization, distortion, build quality and operation.    I think most of the criticism of the mamiya glass stem from the appearance or cheap feel of the 645 lenses, or its carryover from the body (which unlike the lenses does deserve criticism).   
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 01:48:15 PM »
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It does - it tells us how the lenses perform wide open at infinity. As would be used in astrophotography, for instance.

Holy crap! You're kidding me? Remind me to never buy a Hasselblad H system.
[Did I mention I do astrophotography?  Wink ]

I really am surprised by this. I postulated two "excuses" for the HC lens relative performance above; now it seems I must withdraw them.

Are these findings published anywhere?

Ray

You are the CEO of Hasselblad and commission a survey to find out how many of our customers also indulge in astro photography.

The result comes back to less than 1%.  You tell our lens designer to....

You see my point.

Anyway, perhaps this technical article will provide an insight...

http://www.hasselblad.co.uk/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf

David
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KLaban
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 02:43:46 PM »
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I've been racking my brains trying to think when it was I last shot wide open and at infinity but actually don't think I ever have.

The last time I focused at infinity was c. 1991.
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