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Author Topic: Where does Hasselblad sell all their traded-in gear?  (Read 11479 times)
design_freak
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2011, 03:19:15 AM »
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In my view a MF system is all about interchangeability and flexibility that results from such an approach, I feel that this has been the traditional value (along with image size) that gave MF the status it had until it started fading with the rise of the digital age. I clearly don't see the competition following the same path with Has, they offer the same backs for all  cameras, doing the same things as their own cameras. I feel that even the V system is on a different path than the H system and that this shows confusion of company policy. I know many users of the V system that are using different maker backs on their system and most of them despise the H system. In fact I feel that their decision to stop supporting the rest of the cameras with the CFs is an unexplainable decision that can be of only harm to the company. I also feel that if Nikon will come up with the interchangeable sensor D3 replacement that is rumored, MF (starting with Has) is in real trouble. This can be avoided if they would give customers the opportunity to purchase a cheep, older S/H back ....instead of providing to the Elephant a new toy to make the poor animal happy!  Regards Theodoros www.fotometria.gr


I'm sorry but from a business standpoint it would be folly. People do not buy new cameras! This, however, is a company that needs to evolve to do so - that the company must make money. Remember that this market is really small! Your allegation that the system V is not consistent with the direction of the company. I agree, but note that the system V is an icon of photography. A huge mistake was the withdrawal of lenses for this system. I think this bug will be fixed. On this camera will always be demand. As for the system H, the only mistake is the inability to use the film. As for other companies, unfortunately, even if you do not follow the same path that you're wrong. Just look at all the changes in thinking have taken place since the release HxD.
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2011, 03:27:44 AM »
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The strength of MF cameras has always been that they are part of a system - with the notable exception of the Rolleiflex TLRs. But the others - Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Contax and the later Rolleis - started with the cube that is the camera. You then had a case of lenses, finders, magazines, bellows and so forth from which you built the camera you needed for that day's particular task. The size of your case of bits was limited only by desire, need and the size of your wallet.

This concept was, and is, a brilliant one. Hasselblad were the first and most accomplished exponents of the system camera, but others soon followed. In recent years we have seen the gradual erosion and abandonment of these principles, which is why a lot of folks hang on to their old Hasselblad V-system or Contax gear. Closed digital systems and cameras (which can no longer shoot film) with only a prism finder are yet another nail in the coffin for MF in general, or at least MF as I understand it. Because very soon 35mm format DSLRs will be just as competent in terms of image quality, and the advantages which MF truly had will have been pissed away in the wind.

John
It's always good to see that your opinion is supported by others, these others I feel are the majority, so I suggest we raise a strong voice here, come on guys, it's only a quote! let's hear from the rest of you. They may listen and sent the Elephant back to the jungle. Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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design_freak
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2011, 04:30:10 AM »
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The strength of MF cameras has always been that they are part of a system - with the notable exception of the Rolleiflex TLRs. But the others - Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Contax and the later Rolleis - started with the cube that is the camera. You then had a case of lenses, finders, magazines, bellows and so forth from which you built the camera you needed for that day's particular task. The size of your case of bits was limited only by desire, need and the size of your wallet.

This concept was, and is, a brilliant one. Hasselblad were the first and most accomplished exponents of the system camera, but others soon followed. In recent years we have seen the gradual erosion and abandonment of these principles, which is why a lot of folks hang on to their old Hasselblad V-system or Contax gear. Closed digital systems and cameras (which can no longer shoot film) with only a prism finder are yet another nail in the coffin for MF in general, or at least MF as I understand it. Because very soon 35mm format DSLRs will be just as competent in terms of image quality, and the advantages which MF truly had will have been pissed away in the wind.

John

I agree! You're right. But if the blocks fit the Mamiya or Contax or hasselblad or Rollei and vice versa? I'm talking about the good old days
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2011, 04:41:44 AM »
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I'm sorry but from a business standpoint it would be folly. People do not buy new cameras! This, however, is a company that needs to evolve to do so - that the company must make money. Remember that this market is really small! Your allegation that the system V is not consistent with the direction of the company. I agree, but note that the system V is an icon of photography. A huge mistake was the withdrawal of lenses for this system. I think this bug will be fixed. On this camera will always be demand. As for the system H, the only mistake is the inability to use the film. As for other companies, unfortunately, even if you do not follow the same path that you're wrong. Just look at all the changes in thinking have taken place since the release HxD.

Of course it's your opinion and it has to be respected, it's obvious that mine is different both from  the consumer point of view but to the benefit of the company as well. I had a conversation with a Phase One representative a couple of years back and my impression was that they are doing very well, he mentioned that before they seek the relationship with Mamiya, they offered a lot of money to Kyocera to buy the rights of reconstructing the C645, while they had Zeiss blessing. At the end it's Kyocera that was the problem. In this dicussion he did (PH is the initials of the name) mention that they have no intention of closing the system, they only need a camera body to be able to apply future developments and evolution of DB's. I feel that if one company has change hands 3 times and another with different policy expands all the time, its evidence of which policy is the correct one. Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. I find your quotes really to the benefit of this thread, I feel we have a beneficial discussion here (thanks to the OP and the ....elephant)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 05:11:50 AM by fotometria gr » Logged
fotometria gr
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« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2011, 05:09:42 AM »
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I agree! You're right. But if the blocks fit the Mamiya or Contax or hasselblad or Rollei and vice versa? I'm talking about the good old days
Maybe if the Elephant goes back to the jungle.... Tarzan will ride him again. Wink Have you notice the price for a brand new Aptus 5? I bet that in Has they will soon stop production of the CFVs, people only need the rest of the V system.. and some cheap S/H backs! Then we can be Tarzan again. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2011, 06:29:47 AM »
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I'm sorry but from a business standpoint it would be folly. People do not buy new cameras!
snip

Freak,

we would have bought new cameras but we cannot. I wonīt accept a cable to my 3rd party DB, so we bought some preowned H2 bodies to keep our equipment young (not too many actuations). I would never rely on a single body, our work requires at least one backup body for instant replacement, so come on, where is that matched pair integrated system advantage? We would have bought some additional lenses, if those could be used with our H2, unfortunately they are not suitable without the digital correction, so again we didnīt. We upgraded our DBs two times since the H system was closed, we stayed with Leaf and feel happy with this decision. I doubt we would have any better results with a H2+X camera, so I donīt complain, everything is working fine for us, but the photographer who is buying new into MF today and likes a Leaf or Phase back, will he seriously consider buying a preowned body?
Where is the profit for the company, the clever business strategy?

Cheers, Ulf
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2011, 08:37:25 AM »
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Freak,

we would have bought new cameras but we cannot. I wonīt accept a cable to my 3rd party DB, so we bought some preowned H2 bodies to keep our equipment young (not too many actuations). I would never rely on a single body, our work requires at least one backup body for instant replacement, so come on, where is that matched pair integrated system advantage? We would have bought some additional lenses, if those could be used with our H2, unfortunately they are not suitable without the digital correction, so again we didnīt. We upgraded our DBs two times since the H system was closed, we stayed with Leaf and feel happy with this decision. I doubt we would have any better results with a H2+X camera, so I donīt complain, everything is working fine for us, but the photographer who is buying new into MF today and likes a Leaf or Phase back, will he seriously consider buying a preowned body?
Where is the profit for the company, the clever business strategy?

Cheers, Ulf

I guess that there are 2 approaches to the matter, the short-term and the long term and I guess that history has proved for the second. If manufacturers will approach the matter from a long-term point of view they may loose some market from instant selling but there will be (I feel) a multiple benefit from market growth! Just to rephrase, I believe that "let the best photographer win" than "help the photographer than can pay us now" is a better policy, because photographers have prove in the past that they invest when they have results from their work! What is happening now is that great photographers say ...."f..... it, it doesn't worth the investment". Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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JV
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« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2011, 09:42:21 AM »
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fotomedia_gr,

you bypass the economic reality that Phase One with two strong brands "owns" the digital back market.  If Hasselblad, Leica or Pentax were to open up their system they would be reduced to merely medium format camera manufacturers and that is unfortunately a very small market space nowadays.  It would be pure madness for them to open up their system.  It would simply kill them.

Joris.
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design_freak
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« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2011, 09:43:26 AM »
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Freak,

we would have bought new cameras but we cannot. I wonīt accept a cable to my 3rd party DB, so we bought some preowned H2 bodies to keep our equipment young (not too many actuations). I would never rely on a single body, our work requires at least one backup body for instant replacement, so come on, where is that matched pair integrated system advantage? We would have bought some additional lenses, if those could be used with our H2, unfortunately they are not suitable without the digital correction, so again we didnīt. We upgraded our DBs two times since the H system was closed, we stayed with Leaf and feel happy with this decision. I doubt we would have any better results with a H2+X camera, so I donīt complain, everything is working fine for us, but the photographer who is buying new into MF today and likes a Leaf or Phase back, will he seriously consider buying a preowned body?
Where is the profit for the company, the clever business strategy?

Cheers, Ulf

Hi Ulf,
I thought that you are in a great league with Hasselblad. Nobody forbids you to have three spare body kit to your H4D. Only required to Digital Unit was electronically paired with these bodies. So it's not a problem. The more so that this body is not expensive. I see this strategy as follows: you have a body, you have the lenses. You have the opportunity to either stay with the Hasselblad because you do not want to lose what you already have. Either you sell the large loss of body and lenses and buy a PhaseOne body. And now the question is how much you're used to this body. 30% buy Phase One, 45% will go to the Hasselblad system, the rest will not know what to do, but either way will have to choose a system. If you like Phase, Leaf - and want to work on these DB that start to get used to the body P1. Hasselblad's strategy is probably to eliminate h1/h2 from the market. Why are you complaining about, buy the whole system from P1   Roll Eyes
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DF

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JV
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« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »
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Well, depends on what you trade up to.

$13,637 - P30+ credit towards IQ180
$11,467 - P30+ credit towards IQ160
$6,817 - P30+ credit towards IQ140
$9,917 - P30+ credit towards Aptus-II 80
$8,057 - P30+ credit towards Aptus-II 56


Steve Hendrix

Steve,

The Phase One trade up program is very generous for the higher end backs, it is unfortunately almost worthless for the lower end of backs...  Upgrading from the P30+ to a IQ140 will still cost me $15K+ whereas I can get a H4D (camera body included) for $18K  which will also allow me to keep my 5 HC lenses.  Given that imo the H4D is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market (already before the firmware upgrade) this is a no brainer... 

Thanks, Joris.
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design_freak
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« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2011, 10:30:33 AM »
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Steve,

The Phase One trade up program is very generous for the higher end backs, it is unfortunately almost worthless for the lower end of backs...  Upgrading from the P30+ to a IQ140 will still cost me $15K+ whereas I can get a H4D (camera body included) for $18K  which will also allow me to keep my 5 HC lenses.  Given that imo the H4D is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market (already before the firmware upgrade) this is a no brainer... 

Thanks, Joris.

Joris,
Hasselblad A trade-in system works in reverse :-) It is best to give the old 16mpix than, for example H3DII39. Assuming that I want H4D40 - I gives CFV16 or V96 - 11400Euro pay extra - also gives H3DII39 I have to pay extra 11,400 euros. New costs 14.500
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« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2011, 10:48:26 AM »
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Steve,

The Phase One trade up program is very generous for the higher end backs, it is unfortunately almost worthless for the lower end of backs...  Upgrading from the P30+ to a IQ140 will still cost me $15K+ whereas I can get a H4D (camera body included) for $18K  which will also allow me to keep my 5 HC lenses.  Given that imo the H4D is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market (already before the firmware upgrade) this is a no brainer... 

Thanks, Joris.


Joris -

Phase One doesn't make low end backs.  Grin

If you feel the H4D-40 is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market then it really doesn't matter what the price is, does it? If one feels the IQ140 is a superior solution and chooses that upgrade path, as many certainly do, then I guess they just got a bargain.


Steve Hendrix

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2011, 03:00:18 PM »
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Hi Ulf,
I thought that you are in a great league with Hasselblad. Nobody forbids you to have three spare body kit to your H4D. Only required to Digital Unit was electronically paired with these bodies. So it's not a problem. The more so that this body is not expensive. I see this strategy as follows: you have a body, you have the lenses. You have the opportunity to either stay with the Hasselblad because you do not want to lose what you already have. Either you sell the large loss of body and lenses and buy a PhaseOne body. And now the question is how much you're used to this body. 30% buy Phase One, 45% will go to the Hasselblad system, the rest will not know what to do, but either way will have to choose a system. If you like Phase, Leaf - and want to work on these DB that start to get used to the body P1. Hasselblad's strategy is probably to eliminate h1/h2 from the market. Why are you complaining about, buy the whole system from P1   Roll Eyes


Hi Design Freak,

If you reread my post youīll probably find out that Iīm not complaining. We are happy with what weīve got and I donīt feel Iīm missing something.
Hasselblad team and service has always been helpful and friendly. The H is a good working tool for us, but we also often use our DB with large format and from time to time I feel like using our old RZ and do so. I donīt know the number of units installed (I never used to sell those systems) but from my talk to dealers I feel there might be significantly less backs produced with the h-mount. If this is good for Hasselblad (long or short time view), I donīt know. Hasselblad has a great brand reputation and used to make good business with lenses and bodies for decades. They have been extremely late with the release of the h-system, probably close to death. But to get back to topic, I think it has never been easier and cheaper to get into MF, there are plenty of cameras, lenses and backs that will produce fantastic images when put in the right hands. YMMV.

Cheers, Ulf
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2011, 04:52:14 PM »
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fotomedia_gr,

you bypass the economic reality that Phase One with two strong brands "owns" the digital back market.  If Hasselblad, Leica or Pentax were to open up their system they would be reduced to merely medium format camera manufacturers and that is unfortunately a very small market space nowadays.  It would be pure madness for them to open up their system.  It would simply kill them.

Joris.
Leica and Pentax are DSLRs not systems, the same was true with the Mamyia DSLR (sorry I can't remember the name) but this didn't force Mamiya to close their system. Hasselblad is traditionally a camera manufacturer and Imacon a DB manufacturer, when they merged it started like all the rest, open system with integrated inside products that could expand communication between Camera and back, just like P1 is doing now, it was their (false) decision to abandon the other DB manufacturers from doing backs for their camera or stop producing backs for the other cameras. Leica now controls Sinar, do you see them closing their system? They have their DSLR and they have an open system as well! Pentax is a completely different story, it seems to me that they feel that the advancement from APS-c to FF isn't worthwhile (or that they lost time to FF competition to catch up) and decided to go a step further to keep in touch with some of the pro market. Cheers Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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design_freak
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« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2011, 05:29:34 PM »
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fotomedia_gr,

you bypass the economic reality that Phase One with two strong brands "owns" the digital back market.  If Hasselblad, Leica or Pentax were to open up their system they would be reduced to merely medium format camera manufacturers and that is unfortunately a very small market space nowadays.  It would be pure madness for them to open up their system.  It would simply kill them.

Joris.

It's good point !!!
They could afford it if it was owned by Panasonic...
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JV
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« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2011, 10:32:52 PM »
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Joris,
Hasselblad A trade-in system works in reverse :-) It is best to give the old 16mpix than, for example H3DII39. Assuming that I want H4D40 - I gives CFV16 or V96 - 11400Euro pay extra - also gives H3DII39 I have to pay extra 11,400 euros. New costs 14.500

design_freak, the hasselblad trade-in program is imo unfortunately almost always worthless... you are better off selling on your own...
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2011, 09:41:40 AM »
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design_freak, the hasselblad trade-in program is imo unfortunately almost always worthless... you are better off selling on your own...
Even more so...., when there is no trade, there is a discount!!! which means that they steal our investment! What I mean is simple, they suggest a buying price, (say 25000) then, IF you have a trade, they judge it for, say, 6000, but if there is no trade they give you a 4-5000 discount! This is not marketing, its the policy of a PROVEN (Capitalist) CROOK! Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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design_freak
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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2011, 04:58:50 AM »
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design_freak, the hasselblad trade-in program is imo unfortunately almost always worthless... you are better off selling on your own...

Quote
Even more so...., when there is no trade, there is a discount!!! which means that they steal our investment! What I mean is simple, they suggest a buying price, (say 25000) then, IF you have a trade, they judge it for, say, 6000, but if there is no trade they give you a 4-5000 discount! This is not marketing, its the policy of a PROVEN (Capitalist) CROOK! Regards, Theodoros

JV, Theodoros,

Gentlemen, It is true. This program does not work too well. Someone has failed again. Or such is the company policy. As I understand this program: This program is designed to cement and bind the customer with the brand. Life, however, shows that it works in the opposite way. Discouraged by the current holder of that equipment. It is encouraging for people who have equipment that is already in a sense monument. Nobody thinks about you that two years ago bought the equipment, and now he needs (or seems to) hardware currently produced. This approach to "professional" user is incomprehensible to me.
While the idea of ​​an integrated camera is a really good move. Is the old days you could swap the blocks between systems Hasselblad, Mamiya, Contax, Pentax?
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design_freak
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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2011, 05:11:34 AM »
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But to get back to topic, I think it has never been easier and cheaper to get into MF, there are plenty of cameras, lenses and backs that will produce fantastic images when put in the right hands. YMMV.

Cheers, Ulf

I'm very glad you've come to the same point. The most important element is the human factor. It's not the hardware takes pictures, is a man who uses it. You must also look to the manufacturer's point of view. If such professionals as you would buy a cheap used equipment, you need to ask yourself who can afford a new one. They must be very careful in order to survive in this very small market. Just be glad that the students can learn at a very good equipment, which now have better access than ever.
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2011, 05:57:48 PM »
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I'm very glad you've come to the same point. The most important element is the human factor. It's not the hardware takes pictures, is a man who uses it. You must also look to the manufacturer's point of view. If such professionals as you would buy a cheap used equipment, you need to ask yourself who can afford a new one. They must be very careful in order to survive in this very small market. Just be glad that the students can learn at a very good equipment, which now have better access than ever.
If I was one of those students and was to buy MF from scratch, I would buy S/H, I would go for the V system, I would buy 5 S/H lenses (40, 60, 80, 120m, 180), I would buy 3 S/H film backs, a contax or mamiya with a V adapter and a P6 adapter (for the arsat 30 and the CJZ 300), and my 528c if I needed to have 4-16x, or 132 or even sinarback at 22mpx if I didn't, with different adapters for my cameras, no matter my budget! The rest of the money that I would save to buy similar on a new H system, ......I would spend on a Porsche! That would guaranty classier models on my studio and thus more success than competition and hence much more money! I bet you in a year or so, I could buy the H system (or another Porsche), ....just from profit! Maybe we all have to think that those great pictures of the past ....are still great and they were done with much lesser(?) equipment than the one described above! That is why I'm saying that their policy of vanishing useful staff from the S/H market is suicidal, this way they forbid people to get to know MF and thus shrink their own market from potential buyers! Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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