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Author Topic: Where does Hasselblad sell all their traded-in gear?  (Read 13353 times)
eronald
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« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2011, 06:11:36 PM »
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If I was one of those students I would pick up a 5D2, a portrait lens, a Nikon adapter and $500 worth of antique MF Nikon F lenses, and go out and do some music videos and studio shots. Medium format has become obscenely expensive, and you can get commercial quality easily out of $3K of gear.

Edmund


If I was one of those students and was to buy MF from scratch, I would buy S/H, I would go for the V system, I would buy 5 S/H lenses (40, 60, 80, 120m, 180), I would buy 3 S/H film backs, a contax or mamiya with a V adapter and a P6 adapter (for the arsat 30 and the CJZ 300), and my 528c if I needed to have 4-16x, or 132 or even sinarback at 22mpx if I didn't, with different adapters for my cameras, no matter my budget! The rest of the money that I would save to buy similar on a new H system, ......I would spend on a Porsche! That would guaranty classier models on my studio and thus more success than competition and hence much more money! I bet you in a year or so, I could buy the H system (or another Porsche), ....just from profit! Maybe we all have to think that those great pictures of the past ....are still great and they were done with much lesser(?) equipment than the one described above! That is why I'm saying that their policy of vanishing useful staff from the S/H market is suicidal, this way they forbid people to get to know MF and thus shrink their own market from potential buyers! Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2011, 06:56:20 AM »
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Wow - a spirited debate regarding the pre-owned equipment market and illuminating with meaningful ideas...congrats!

Reading the new comments, it occurs to me that it is important to say that the elephant does not stay busy; we sell any working equipment traded in - including a recent sale of a 22MP that uses an imagebank. Why? Because this photographer now is shooting MF at a low cost of entry and will work her way up over the next few years by trading up and her equipment retains the value of a trade-in (or fair market value) should she choose to exercise that option.

This is an alternate strategy to buying new and then staying on top of advances by trading up every few years; same concept with the difference being the starting point.

I have several interested buyers for the 528 multishot - even though this system is several years old, so it is hard to say that the value is diminished (like a computer for example.)

Also, there is a minimum value to a Hasselblad (and other) MF by way of the official trade-in program; varies from $3,000 to $9,000 depending on what is being trading in and what is being acquired. See your local Hasselblad reseller for details in your area.

In some cases, the fair market value exceeds the credit for the trade-in and we can provide an alternative trade-in option to maximize the value of the equipment to the seller (a system may have a trade-in value of $5,000 but fair market is $7,000 so we can help the seller retain the extra $2,000.)

The point is that if you are a MF owner, there is:
  • a path to stay current without large expenditures every couple of years,
  • if you are looking to get into MF and trade-up over time, there is a healthy pre-owned market to select equipment from,
  • and if you are already a MF owner, you have multiple options to trade-up (either new or used.)

I agree that the trade-up program has not been as clear from a Hasselblad message and it gives us the opportunity to present the variety of options to the unique needs of each client.

John
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« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2011, 07:32:41 AM »
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Wow - a spirited debate regarding the pre-owned equipment market and illuminating with meaningful ideas...congrats!

Reading the new comments, it occurs to me that it is important to say that the elephant does not stay busy; we sell any working equipment traded in - including a recent sale of a 22MP that uses an imagebank. Why? Because this photographer now is shooting MF at a low cost of entry and will work her way up over the next few years by trading up and her equipment retains the value of a trade-in (or fair market value) should she choose to exercise that option.

This is an alternate strategy to buying new and then staying on top of advances by trading up every few years; same concept with the difference being the starting point.

I have several interested buyers for the 528 multishot - even though this system is several years old, so it is hard to say that the value is diminished (like a computer for example.)

Also, there is a minimum value to a Hasselblad (and other) MF by way of the official trade-in program; varies from $3,000 to $9,000 depending on what is being trading in and what is being acquired. See your local Hasselblad reseller for details in your area.

In some cases, the fair market value exceeds the credit for the trade-in and we can provide an alternative trade-in option to maximize the value of the equipment to the seller (a system may have a trade-in value of $5,000 but fair market is $7,000 so we can help the seller retain the extra $2,000.)

The point is that if you are a MF owner, there is:
  • a path to stay current without large expenditures every couple of years,
  • if you are looking to get into MF and trade-up over time, there is a healthy pre-owned market to select equipment from,
  • and if you are already a MF owner, you have multiple options to trade-up (either new or used.)

I agree that the trade-up program has not been as clear from a Hasselblad message and it gives us the opportunity to present the variety of options to the unique needs of each client.

John


WOW, beautifully written. Maybe let's examine this in a concrete example. What you recommend a client who has H3D39. He wants to have H4D40. How does it look from the financial side.
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« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2011, 08:12:13 AM »
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Yeah... that is probably the worst possible example and as a former HB dealer you are very well aware of this. Ask an owner of a P40+ what his upgrade options are towards an IQ140 and you will have a very similar situation. How about the upgrade price from an Imacon 132 or 96 towards a H4D60? Which is probably the other end of the spectrum.

If I would be the H3DII39 owner I would look for someone that has a H1D39/22 (or even a 96C) looking to upgrade. Change the H3DII for the H1D39/22 with some change and upgrade from there. If you have a great dealer he will help you in this area.

This route will probably be the most beneficial

Or sell the H3D39 and buy a H4D40 and try to get a discount.

Anyway, upgrading from a H3D39 towards the H4D40 remains a difficult one and not the cheapest or most cost effective. You have to have a very compelling
reason to do so. I think many will continue using the H3D39 and wait for a next generation or even a generation beyond that.

There are multiple ways to do this if you are really adamant in upgrading. If you are, don't expect to get the deal of the century.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 08:16:59 AM by Dustbak » Logged
design_freak
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« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2011, 08:51:16 AM »
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Yeah... that is probably the worst possible example and as a former HB dealer you are very well aware of this. Ask an owner of a P40+ what his upgrade options are towards an IQ140 and you will have a very similar situation. How about the upgrade price from an Imacon 132 or 96 towards a H4D60? Which is probably the other end of the spectrum.

If I would be the H3DII39 owner I would look for someone that has a H1D39/22 (or even a 96C) looking to upgrade. Change the H3DII for the H1D39/22 with some change and upgrade from there. If you have a great dealer he will help you in this area.

This route will probably be the most beneficial

Or sell the H3D39 and buy a H4D40 and try to get a discount.

Anyway, upgrading from a H3D39 towards the H4D40 remains a difficult one and not the cheapest or most cost effective. You have to have a very compelling
reason to do so. I think many will continue using the H3D39 and wait for a next generation or even a generation beyond that.

There are multiple ways to do this if you are really adamant in upgrading. If you are, don't expect to get the deal of the century.



As I wrote, it pays me to change only the monuments. Or go to the competition. So in a sense, this program is not considered.
The same is if I wanted to have H4D60. It pays me more to give 96c. So I have to buy a 96c. H3D39 sell or keep them. And it can be embarrassing / not convenient. This shows that this program is poorly designed. Please consider what equipment needs commercial photographer who is on top. Market forces him to have the latest equipment. On one hand, the company depends heavily on sales of new products, on the other hand there is no developed a strategy to keep that customer. It's 2 cents from my side
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 08:59:02 AM by design_freak » Logged

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design_freak
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« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2011, 10:58:42 AM »
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If I was one of those students I would pick up a 5D2, a portrait lens, a Nikon adapter and $500 worth of antique MF Nikon F lenses, and go out and do some music videos and studio shots. Medium format has become obscenely expensive, and you can get commercial quality easily out of $3K of gear.

Edmund



+1
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MrSmith
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« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2011, 02:57:39 PM »
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what about cross platform trade-ups? do the manufacturers do deals to get you to move over to their product.
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lance_schad
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« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2011, 04:37:16 PM »
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what about cross platform trade-ups? do the manufacturers do deals to get you to move over to their product.

Yes we are currently offering the Phase One competitive trade in program. The offer is currently 1% per megapixel towards the purchase of a New Phase One Digital Back.

For example:

Hasselblad 39Mpix back to IQ180 = $43,990 - $17,156 = $26,834
Hasselblad 60Mpix back to IQ180 = $43,990 - $26,394 = $17,596
Sinar 33Mpix back to IQ160 = $36,990 - $12,207 = $24,783

Lance

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« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2011, 08:42:10 PM »
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As I wrote, it pays me to change only the monuments. Or go to the competition. So in a sense, this program is not considered.
The same is if I wanted to have H4D60. It pays me more to give 96c. So I have to buy a 96c. H3D39 sell or keep them. And it can be embarrassing / not convenient. This shows that this program is poorly designed. Please consider what equipment needs commercial photographer who is on top. Market forces him to have the latest equipment. On one hand, the company depends heavily on sales of new products, on the other hand there is no developed a strategy to keep that customer. It's 2 cents from my side

It is a situation like the above upgrade from the H3D-39 to the 40 that is an excellent use case for the alternative method of locating a buyer for the H3D-39, then using those proceeds to purchase the H4D-40. Simple. Does not require complex trade-in rules.

I think it is a bit unconventional to expect any company to sell something for less than the cost to make it, so it is unproductive to desire a trade-in policy that causes a negative profit; this means not all trade-in possibilities can be addressed and remain simple.

In this example, the changes are the ISO range of 50-800 is moved up one stop to 100-1600 via the sensor difference (microlenses on the 40) and the additional technology of locking the focal plane known as TruFocus is added. Are those features worth the cost of the upgrade? For some, yes,; for others, no.

So it really comes back to the reasons for moving up from the 39 to the 40 - what are the motivators from the photographer's desire? The reason will drive the method. The key point is there is a path to get from where you are to where you want to be that is market-driven; does not rely on rules of a particular manufacturer's trade-up program because the path may/not be within that scope.

These are the same reasons why a photographer examines the best tool to compete in the market against other photographers; why one brand may be a better fit than another. For some, the technical capability of the Hasselblad and complete lens portfolio, accessories, software, and digital back on technical camera accelerate the business and artistic goals of the photographer.

Which leads to programs by Hasselblad and PhaseOne to court each other's client base for the right matching of needs versus tools, Lance has supplied the figures for his organization's competitive trade-in. A little research effort will yield similar results for those who seek it for the Hasselblad matrix.

It is not all rainbows and butterflies out there; you do need to validate what is told. Verify the information from all sources. I recommend getting your questions answered about a manufacturer's products from that manufacturer. Nothing takes the place of your first-hand experience.

So where does Hasselblad sell all their traded-in gear? : )

John
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« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2011, 04:59:02 AM »
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It is a situation like the above upgrade from the H3D-39 to the 40 that is an excellent use case for the alternative method of locating a buyer for the H3D-39, then using those proceeds to purchase the H4D-40. Simple. Does not require complex trade-in rules.

I think it is a bit unconventional to expect any company to sell something for less than the cost to make it, so it is unproductive to desire a trade-in policy that causes a negative profit; this means not all trade-in possibilities can be addressed and remain simple.

In this example, the changes are the ISO range of 50-800 is moved up one stop to 100-1600 via the sensor difference (microlenses on the 40) and the additional technology of locking the focal plane known as TruFocus is added. Are those features worth the cost of the upgrade? For some, yes,; for others, no.

So it really comes back to the reasons for moving up from the 39 to the 40 - what are the motivators from the photographer's desire? The reason will drive the method. The key point is there is a path to get from where you are to where you want to be that is market-driven; does not rely on rules of a particular manufacturer's trade-up program because the path may/not be within that scope.

These are the same reasons why a photographer examines the best tool to compete in the market against other photographers; why one brand may be a better fit than another. For some, the technical capability of the Hasselblad and complete lens portfolio, accessories, software, and digital back on technical camera accelerate the business and artistic goals of the photographer.

Which leads to programs by Hasselblad and PhaseOne to court each other's client base for the right matching of needs versus tools, Lance has supplied the figures for his organization's competitive trade-in. A little research effort will yield similar results for those who seek it for the Hasselblad matrix.

It is not all rainbows and butterflies out there; you do need to validate what is told. Verify the information from all sources. I recommend getting your questions answered about a manufacturer's products from that manufacturer. Nothing takes the place of your first-hand experience.

So where does Hasselblad sell all their traded-in gear? : )

John

This program is devised in order to keep the customer with you. But if the customer gets a better offer from P1, is not a reason to think about this? Why H4D40, because it is the best camera from the manufacturer. It is very versatile. But back to topic. Putting the holder DB 96c, on the same shelf as the holder H3D39 is at least not understandable. (The same discount, even if you buy H4D60). Summary: the poor elephant should return to his family, running the scrap can harm him. Where Hasselblad sells? Only the museum might be interested.

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fotometria gr
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« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2011, 08:16:27 AM »
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 +1. If they really have the same trade for 96c and Hd39 it just proves them crooks. This proves that the trade price is the actual price and that the one that trades the 96 should seriously consider what his new toy will worth in the next trade if he becomes member of a closed system. It also proves that after you bite, they blackmail you for extra profit, because now they know that you are in a path that makes it much more difficult (and costly) to jump to another maker! I will never buy from a closed system, just like I would never buy an ultra expensive DSLR. This shows that they stopped producing the adapters for the CFs, just to stop people of continuing with an open system. I bet that CFVs sales must have dropped considerably after that, because now if somebody buys a CFV, he can't sell it S/H to an owner of a different system, he has to stay with Hasselblad and suffer the blackmail. Regards Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2011, 11:10:27 AM »
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If I may:
Mr. Design_freak and now Mr. Fotometria, are keeping the entertainment level very high.
Great to have them on this board, innit?
Kind regards
E.
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« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2011, 11:29:47 AM »
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If I may:
Mr. Design_freak and now Mr. Fotometria, are keeping the entertainment level very high.
Great to have them on this board, innit?
Kind regards
E.


At a very good start, welcome you on this forum.  Smiley We are glad that you joined. Introduce yourself to us who you are, what you do, for whom you work.  Smiley
With all due respect I do not see even a little entertainment here ...  But I'm happy with that, in this grim reality, you see a bit of fun

Best regards,
Design Freak
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« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2011, 11:37:26 AM »
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+1. If they really have the same trade for 96c and Hd39 it just proves them crooks. This proves that the trade price is the actual price and that the one that trades the 96 should seriously consider what his new toy will worth in the next trade if he becomes member of a closed system. It also proves that after you bite, they blackmail you for extra profit, because now they know that you are in a path that makes it much more difficult (and costly) to jump to another maker!

The Hasselblad trade-in program is not very useful or not useful at all but terms like crooks and blackmail are probably a bit too strong...

I will never buy from a closed system, just like I would never buy an ultra expensive DSLR.

As said "all" medum format digital is in reality closed now...

This shows that they stopped producing the adapters for the CFs, just to stop people of continuing with an open system.

I would not look for any conspiracies where there are none.  Phase + Leaf own the standalone digital back market.  The market share of Hasselblad and Sinar is/was insignificant.  If Hasselblad could make money selling CF backs they would have stayed in that business.

I bet that CFVs sales must have dropped considerably after that, because now if somebody buys a CFV, he can't sell it S/H to an owner of a different system, he has to stay with Hasselblad and suffer the blackmail. Regards Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr

Everybody who buys a CFV back perfectly knows that he can only use it on a V system and on a tech camera.  The reason that Hasselblad is still in this business is because of the amount of V cameras out there and the fact that CFV backs require no cable which gives them a advantage over other backs (although other backs might have other advantages like rotating sensors, etc).
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« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2011, 02:08:03 PM »
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The Hasselblad trade-in program is not very useful or not useful at all but terms like crooks and blackmail are probably a bit too strong...

As said "all" medum format digital is in reality closed now...

I would not look for any conspiracies where there are none.  Phase + Leaf own the standalone digital back market.  The market share of Hasselblad and Sinar is/was insignificant.  If Hasselblad could make money selling CF backs they would have stayed in that business.

Everybody who buys a CFV back perfectly knows that he can only use it on a V system and on a tech camera.  The reason that Hasselblad is still in this business is because of the amount of V cameras out there and the fact that CFV backs require no cable which gives them a advantage over other backs (although other backs might have other advantages like rotating sensors, etc).

You may be right on "too strong", but as I see you agree, so I felt that if I shout they may listen... As I quoted earlier their policy is Suicidal and I believe that there is none on this thread that would like them "dead" we all have to benefit from competition, imagine if P1 was left alone to the market.... that wouldn't be to a photographers interest, would it?
  I already quoted earlier that its not "closed" not from P1 or Leaf or Sinar... and that I happened to have a discussion with a P1 representative that they do not intend to close it. I feel that in Hass, they changed their policy because they thought they would profit from that.... it turned to be a huge mistake, they have to return to that policy and they can start by sending the Elephant back to the jungle.
  OK! but there was no reason to stop producing the CFs. Thanks for the quote, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2011, 10:10:10 PM »
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Many come here to learn and decipher the rhetoric from fact, like a trip to the library or mayhap, local park with soapbox.

Part of my participation in the board is to present the alternative to opinion masquerading as fact; some posts are factually incorrect, some posts are left to "interpretation by the reader." On each of these counts, you will likely see my posts as the argument for the reader to measure between both.

Dear reader, it is your duty to examine the material and come to your conclusion.

*sigh* Like David Grover has stated before, it is with a tired yawn that again we must address the well-beaten horse of those who cannot accept that Hasselblad made the decision to produce empowered systems that provide a new tool for the 2011 photographer to differentiate himself/herself from the other photographers shooting with ___fill__in__the__blank__ camera system. No logic can penetrate their opinion. I accept this because I hear daily of photographers who are growing their business in this tough time and going out to get things done. Shoot. Earn income. Rinse and Repeat as necessary.

What's the proof? Lenses. Lots of them. Sharper than the ones made 20 years ago...30 years ago...40 years ago when mankind landed on the moon. Why should we be shocked that in two or three decades we can produce a better lens when in the same time period the computer has reduced from millions of dollars and several thousand feet to a few hundred dollars in the palm of our hand?

And software that can improve the performance of the lenses - not because of need - but because the technical capability exists to do so. Man did not climb to the top of Everest because he needed the view - it was incredibly difficult to do as an achievement to demonstrate what can be done, but certainly not a requirement. And the Ad Director likes it.

IMHO, Brand loyalty should not triumph personal credibility. Opinions are rightful and personal. I have not yet found any photographer who is "locked" into any solution. Don't like what you have? Sell it and buy what you want.

Review the forums. Rant from review is apparent. You will find value in a variety of brands with experts in each to provide advice here.

So dear reader, where does Hasselblad sell ... their trade-in gear? To buyers who want to shoot bigger than before, with better color than before, and with more capability than before. Don't fear change - it is the world we live in.

Be well, stay creative!

John
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« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2011, 12:48:55 PM »
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So dear reader, where does Hasselblad sell ... their trade-in gear? To buyers who want to shoot bigger than before, with better color than before, and with more capability than before. Don't fear change - it is the world we live in.
Now, this may be considered as an opinion masquerading as fact! If you remember they give it to "Jumbo" instead and that's not an opinion but a fact! The whole discussion thereafter is opinions that agree or disagree with this policy and how that policy affects MF market and potential MF buyers. Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 01:03:30 PM by fotometria gr » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2011, 01:48:25 PM »
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Now, this may be considered as an opinion masquerading as fact! If you remember they give it to "Jumbo" instead and that's not an opinion but a fact! The whole discussion thereafter is opinions that agree or disagree with this policy and how that policy affects MF market and potential MF buyers. Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Theodoros,

If I remember correctly, Hasselblad never gave anything to Jumbo. Wasnīt it P1 who tried to prove better mechanical stability of their backs against the competitors? Are you trying to find a deeper sense in advertising? If you look at their market share today it seems that their efforts paid out well. Silly enough, though - for a piece of equipment probably everybody takes maximum care of.

Again, there are lots of backs and cameras around and it has never been easier and cheaper to enter the MF game.
Letīs stop beating that dead horse and create great images instead.

Cheers, Ulf
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« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2011, 02:18:54 PM »
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Theodoros,

If I remember correctly, Hasselblad never gave anything to Jumbo. Wasnīt it P1 who tried to prove better mechanical stability of their backs against the competitors? Are you trying to find a deeper sense in advertising? If you look at their market share today it seems that their efforts paid out well. Silly enough, though - for a piece of equipment probably everybody takes maximum care of.

Again, there are lots of backs and cameras around and it has never been easier and cheaper to enter the MF game.
Letīs stop beating that dead horse and create great images instead.

Cheers, Ulf
You've misunderstood me Ulf, P1 DOES THE SAME THING, I've quoted that right from the beggining. They both do it with anything that they don't produce anymore. P1 with any non +series and lower than P25+ from the +series and Hass with everything that has an interchangeable mount. The extra problem with Hass is that they have the system closed so If I was to upgrade my very capable 528c and keep my Contax I can't do it with them and if I would change my Contax system (which I don't want) and decide to go with them, my 528c will ...disappear to ....Jumbo! Not back to a newcomer (!), now isn't that suicidal for MF makers? Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2011, 03:06:50 PM »
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You've misunderstood me Ulf, P1 DOES THE SAME THING, I've quoted that right from the beggining. They both do it with anything that they don't produce anymore. P1 with any non +series and lower than P25+ from the +series and Hass with everything that has an interchangeable mount. The extra problem with Hass is that they have the system closed so If I was to upgrade my very capable 528c and keep my Contax I can't do it with them and if I would change my Contax system (which I don't want) and decide to go with them, my 528c will ...disappear to ....Jumbo! Not back to a newcomer (!), now isn't that suicidal for MF makers? Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr

Ok, I understand, but that is how business is done: If you decide to upgrade your system you would:
A: Keep your old equipment as backup, buy something else.
B: Sell the whole Contax kit including the back to a newcomer, buy something else.
C: Sell the back seperately and go with a competitor DB, ask for a good deal.
D: Trade the back to the new manufacturer, because he offers a better price than the market and you accept that it might be trashed, whereas it was already mentioned in this thread that dealers try to bring those trade-in backs back to life.
E: Find another solution, Iīm not aware of at the moment.

I understand your complains about the broken upgrade path, but I may stand corrected, but that 528 has been an Imacon, not Hassy back? It has been a rollercoaster for MF during the last years, Hasselblad and Imacon went together, kept on developing, Contax is discontinued, Mamiya digital has vanished and the AFI/Sinar/Rollei is a question mark, Leaf was bought by Phase, what happened to Sinar and Eyelike? Leica and Pentax launched new products. Letīs hope we keep all those companys healthy, because they deliver excellent tools today. I do not (nor would probably anybody else) miss my first DB which is easily outperformed by any DSLR today.

Cheers, Ulf
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 03:09:02 PM by UlfKrentz » Logged
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