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Author Topic: EVF/Live View for the advanced user (brainstorming)  (Read 5270 times)
Guillermo Luijk
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« on: September 09, 2011, 12:20:24 PM »
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With the new EVF's appearing on the market, specially thanks to mirrorless cameras that have no OVF, I wanted to start a discussion of how your favourite EVF view would be for the advanced user. This is also applicable to LCD's Live View.

For advanced user I mean a RAW shooter who wants to have the capture process under total control, not caring to obtain a finished image in the camera. Surely camera makers will insist on JPEG related information since most users are not so demanding about the RAW capture, but it can be interesting to share points of view.

Here is my proposal V1.0:
  • Exposure parameters: shutter, aperture and ISO.
  • B&W image display: to make other information more easily visible (colour is secondary since WB will be adjusted in the RAW development). The display exposure (brightness) of the image could be either normalised regardless the exposure parameters chosen, or be correlated with the actual exposure parameters chosen. I.e. it could always appear well visible, or dark/blown according to selected exposure parameters.
  • RAW histogram in EV divisions: the histogram displayed corresponds strictly to RAW data (the camera would approximate the RAW data that would be obtained with the selected exposure parameters based on its real time sampling of the scene), and it is displayed in EV divisions. Changing exposure parameters would shift the histogram but would not affect its shape. Just by counting how many vertical divisions contain information, we know the scene's DR.
  • RAW clipping warning: areas saturated in some RAW channel would blink red (or any combination of colours allowing to find out which precise combination of channels saturated), areas with such a low exposure that falls out of the sensor's DR (e.g. SNR=12dB criteria) would blink blue (or again any combination of colours allowing to find out which precise combination of channels saturated).
  • Focus Peaking: yellow tinted.


Any suggestions? what do you miss? what would you add/change?

Regards
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 06:14:02 PM by Guillermo Luijk » Logged

Peter_DL
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2011, 01:05:55 PM »
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B&W image display: to make other information more easily visible (colour is secondary since WB will be adjusted in the RAW development)...

Any suggestions? what do you miss?
 
Colour !
Thatís why we are doing photographs.
Image details or noise are negotiable for me.

See e.g. your own example of a severe underexposure which could still be Raw-processed still to a decent rendition.
Iím expecting (the) improved sensor technology to sort these "details" out for us.

Peter

--
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 05:06:12 PM by Peter_DL » Logged
NikoJorj
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2011, 03:35:33 PM »
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From what I see on my CHDK'ed SD800, a color preview image is no problem as long as the clipping and focus indicators blink. It makes also much easier to guess which channel is blown.
The focus mask could blink at a different frequency to make it more distinct of the clipping masks.

For the histogram, of course it shall be raw based (how could one possibly imagine it else?) but it could be nice to have it outside of the frame, to allow easier composing/framing.
Ditto for the exposure parameters (and a few other optional indicators, as a flash-ready icon or the # of shots left in a burst and/or on the card, could be useful too).
Hard decision as EVF real estate is quite scarce, but ideally I'd say that only image-based indicators (clipping and focus masks) do belong to the image area and others should go in the margins.

And then, there still is a big question : even if we've put the WB out of our way (but I also see and dream in colors Wink ), how to render the tonalities in the preview image?
I really like the ground glass, among other reasons because I can see into the shadows with it (and maybe more generally because the scene is prettier than a default rendering). Some automatic fill light could be useful there... It's actually not a problem if the preview is not that pretty as long as information (ie the detail recorded in shadows and highlights) is readable. Btw, that would make me prefer a brightness correlated to the exposure parameters.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 03:37:31 PM by NikoJorj » Logged

Nicolas from Grenoble
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Guillermo Luijk
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2011, 03:56:01 PM »
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how to render the tonalities in the preview image?

Combining a white balanced (with any currently existing approach) and coloured image with RAW based clipping indicators is no problem; you look at the image for composition and look at the clipping indicator to know what you'll find on both ends of the histogram. I just put colour away to visually enhance the other indicators.

I don't like the histogram over the image either, but I cannot think of a way to put it somewhere else at the same time the dimensions of the EVF frame are respected and all the surface is used.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 03:58:12 PM by Guillermo Luijk » Logged

aduke
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »
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I don't like the histogram over the image either, but I cannot think of a way to put it somewhere else at the same time the dimensions of the EVF frame are respected and all the surface is used.

You could alternate the metadata, including the histogram, for (user specified) seconds followed by the image itself, for (user specified) seconds.

Alan
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 04:22:02 PM »
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I don't like the histogram over the image either, but I cannot think of a way to put it somewhere else at the same time the dimensions of the EVF frame are respected and all the surface is used.
Perhaps alpha-blended on top?

Perhaps place it dynamically somewhere in the picture where the focus is not?

-h
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JonathanRimmel
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 05:03:52 PM »
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More than anything having the histogram be for the RAW image based on actual camera settings and what the sensor is seeing would be fantastic. This way we can more easily fine tune our exposures. (It would be great if this worked outside of EVF/Live View as well)
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 05:58:58 PM »
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You could alternate the metadata, including the histogram, for (user specified) seconds followed by the image itself, for (user specified) seconds.

Alan
I would prefer a dedicated button that cycles between three versions:
1.   Small BW image (with blinkers) and good-sized histogram (exactly as described),
2.   Full-sized BW image with all the blinking indicators, and
3.   A full-sized color image, adjusted to a preset color balance.

Eric M.
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Fine_Art
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 06:34:31 PM »
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The 2 EVF views I always use in the A55 are histogram overlay and camera level bars. I often switch back and forth so I would like these on 1 screen. Having a bubble on the tripod with ball head is not as good as the very good level indicators in the EVF.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 02:01:37 AM »
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We only care about the right most stop of the histogram, right?

In fact we only care about the exposure distance between the right most significant bright area of the image and clipping.

One number expressed in stops (positive means under-exposure relative to ETTR, negative means over-exposure) in a color showing the clipping channel is enough together with a blinking display in the same clipping color of that area.

Cheers,
Bernard
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NikoJorj
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2011, 05:20:10 AM »
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One number expressed in stops (positive means under-exposure relative to ETTR, negative means over-exposure) in a color showing the clipping channel is enough together with a blinking display in the same clipping color of that area.
There may be some cases where having the full histogram is better (mostly to assess if there will be more or less noise in the shadows), but yes, it's a good way to simplify information!
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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Guillermo Luijk
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 07:54:25 AM »
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If the sensor is continuously sampling the scene (and this is a fact in Live View/EVF cameras), it can predict based on sufficiently underexposed RAW data collected, the portion of the histogram that would get clipped/underexposed if shooting with currently selected aperture/shutter/ISO parameters.

I see no reason not to have an interactive histogram estimation like this:




The gray EV divisions correspond to the RAW histogram that would be generated with current exposure parameters, being dark gray those with too much noise because of underexposure to have textures properly recorded (of course the number of divisions in dak gray would depend on camera's ISO). The orange divisions correspond to the highlights that would get clipped if we shoot with currently selected parameters. The image display would blink red the estimated clipped areas, and blink blue those with such a severe underexposure to fall in the dark gray divisions.

With such an information, adjusting the perfect RAW exposure would become a very intuitive task, similar to using a RAW developer.

In HDR situations, it can help to have a quick overview of how the scene's DR spreads and where we should sacrifice S/H information.

Regards

« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 09:45:21 AM by Guillermo Luijk » Logged

ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 11:55:38 PM »
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Hi,

In my view a blinking highlight is most effective. We want essentially to ETTR so we want to have an exposure where specular highlights are overexposed but normal highlights just within ETTR. The histogram doesn't actually tell what is clipped. Shadow clipping is in my view less useful, with the DR we now have. Focus mask is a bright idea, but I have no clue how effective it is.

I really want to be able to enable each feature, so I can have my own combinations. For instance I want histogram and virtual horizon at the same time.

Best regards
Erik


With the new EVF's appearing on the market, specially thanks to mirrorless cameras that have no OVF, I wanted to start a discussion of how your favourite EVF view would be for the advanced user. This is also applicable to LCD's Live View.

For advanced user I mean a RAW shooter who wants to have the capture process under total control, not caring to obtain a finished image in the camera. Surely camera makers will insist on JPEG related information since most users are not so demanding about the RAW capture, but it can be interesting to share points of view.

Here is my proposal V1.0:
  • Exposure parameters: shutter, aperture and ISO.
  • B&W image display: to make other information more easily visible (colour is secondary since WB will be adjusted in the RAW development). The display exposure (brightness) of the image could be either normalised regardless the exposure parameters chosen, or be correlated with the actual exposure parameters chosen. I.e. it could always appear well visible, or dark/blown according to selected exposure parameters.
  • RAW histogram in EV divisions: the histogram displayed corresponds strictly to RAW data (the camera would approximate the RAW data that would be obtained with the selected exposure parameters based on its real time sampling of the scene), and it is displayed in EV divisions. Changing exposure parameters would shift the histogram but would not affect its shape. Just by counting how many vertical divisions contain information, we know the scene's DR.
  • RAW clipping warning: areas saturated in some RAW channel would blink red (or any combination of colours allowing to find out which precise combination of channels saturated), areas with such a low exposure that falls out of the sensor's DR (e.g. SNR=12dB criteria) would blink blue (or again any combination of colours allowing to find out which precise combination of channels saturated).
  • Focus Peaking: yellow tinted.


Any suggestions? what do you miss? what would you add/change?

Regards

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