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Author Topic: Museo Silver Rag problem?  (Read 10435 times)
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 04:18:16 PM »
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Quote from the factory:

Actually the maximum width we could achieve is 50". We are ready to plan a special batch for this.

/Sven

As ambiguous as "We" in the royal sense I guess :-)


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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fetish
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2011, 12:04:49 AM »
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updated thoughts on the 'new' silver rag surface:

After a week and about 10 prints made with this paper, I found a lot of noticeable cracks and 'holes' on the surface, especially visible in the areas with lots of black. they're not caused by material flaking off but more like the coating is unstable and cracking.
I could easily find 7 or more within a 16"x20" print.

Altho the gloss looks good, I must say that I cant use this paper professionally at this point of time due to the amount of problems it has. :-/
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MuseoFineArt
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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2011, 11:20:29 AM »
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We are sorry to hear about your recent concerns with Silver Rag. The industry has experienced several cotton shortages throughout 2011. These shortages have forced manufacturers like us to find alternative base paper suppliers to keep an ample supply of product in the marketplace. There are stringent qualification parameters around any new base consideration, all of which keep the product within specification. In the process of base qualification, we have seen slight variations in white point, which in turn accentuates gloss level. That said, the imaging performance and archival expectations have not been compromised.

As it pertains to the actual inkjet receptive coating, which is the most critical part, there have been absolutely no changes to the technology. We are working diligently to dial the product in. As a valued customer, it would be very helpful to us if you would participate in the testing as your feedback is valued. Please email me directly at museo@intelicoat.com or respond to this post if you are interested in participating in this testing.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:46:51 PM by MuseoFineArt » Logged

Jennifer Chagnon
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fetish
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« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 12:05:07 PM »
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Hi MuseoFineArt,

I find it difficult to understand why the  surface texture of the Silver Rag 44" Roll batch F1H5401P differs so much from the Silver Rag Cutsheet batch F1B5602 (which has the old familiar silver rag surface which I've used for so long) when there has been no change in the technology?

I have absolutely no issues printing on the cut sheet but the new surface on the roll paper is entirely unuseable IMHO.
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MuseoFineArt
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« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 12:18:56 PM »
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Fetish,

The F1B5602 lot was manufactured in February 2011,  prior to the cotton shortage.The surface texture is inherent in the base paper, not the inkjet coating, however, we can mask surface excess texture through coating technique. We have the product dialed in at this point and are running a coating campaign this week. I would be happy to send you samples of the latest run for your review and feedback.
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Jennifer Chagnon
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MuseoFineArt
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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 12:29:23 PM »
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The statements made by jdoyle1713 regarding InteliCoat Technologies are completely inaccurate. The Museo products are in stock and available.

InteliCoat Technologies® is a world leader in the manufacture of coated paper, film, and specialty substrates for imaging technologies, and has earned a reputation for producing innovative, highly effective digital imaging products for the ink jet printing market. A pioneer in the digital imaging arena, InteliCoat's brands of digital imaging media are award-winning industry favorites.

The InteliCoat Inkjet Coatings are what makes substrates perform in inkjet printers, not the substrates themselves. The Museo product line is consistant, repeatable and continues to be a leading brand in the inkjet fine art marketplace.

www.museofineart.com
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Jennifer Chagnon
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fetish
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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 12:34:00 PM »
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sent a pm to you!
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Rick Popham
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2011, 05:19:29 PM »
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...The industry has experienced several cotton shortages throughout 2011. These shortages have forced manufacturers like us to find alternative base paper suppliers to keep an ample supply of product in the marketplace.

I was under the impression that Crane was producing the Museo base papers, but this seems to indicate otherwise.  Is Crane involved at all any more with the Museo line?
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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2011, 08:35:32 PM »
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Hello Newbie Museo Fine art..why don’t you put your actual name out here..HMMM..

Happy New Year.. Museo Finally Got a Batch of paper made.. It’s very accurate.. I had backorders for over 3 months and you could not fill product So Stop..

It’s very accurate!

Tell the truth!!! If you want to question what I actually know as a Fact Put your name out here or call me directly!!


By The way.. Just because you use the " there have been absolutely no changes to the technology. We are working diligently to dial the product in” Hit reality if you change the cotton linter supplier than its different. Otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to dial it in..Hahnemuhle tried that and ended up with a totally new product..You’re dealing with professional photographers, artists and expert printmakers that have trained eyes.. Not the consumer who is clueless on this board..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper
856-787-9200 ( Just in case you want to call ) Grin
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Jeff Magidson
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2011, 09:00:28 PM »
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MuseoFineArt;

First, thank's for taking the time to answer questions about your products on the forum! I am a Museo customer, so I am interested in the info. It would be more forthright of you to post under your real name. Also, please stick to the facts and spare us the marketing pablum, you will be much better received.

best,

~ Jeff Magidson

http://artslidesboston.com


InteliCoat Technologies® is a world leader in the manufacture of coated paper, film, and specialty substrates for imaging technologies, and has earned a reputation for producing innovative, highly effective digital imaging products for the ink jet printing market. A pioneer in the digital imaging arena, InteliCoat's brands of digital imaging media are award-winning industry favorites.

The InteliCoat Inkjet Coatings are what makes substrates perform in inkjet printers, not the substrates themselves. The Museo product line is consistant, repeatable and continues to be a leading brand in the inkjet fine art marketplace.

www.museofineart.com

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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2011, 06:36:59 AM »
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All it took was an e-mail to Museo to get a courteous response back with the poster's real name and position within Museo.  I volunteered to test the new batch of MSR paper (I have a couple of boxes of "pre-shortage" MSR and should be able to adequately test black and white points as well as color gamut differences.  I will report my findings back here as well as to Museo.

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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 03:04:26 PM »
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Last week I received a roll of the “new” Silver Rag from Museo.  I should have told them to send me a small sample of letter size cut sheets since I have an Epson 3880 printer and it is cumbersome to cut and decurl sheets from rolls.  Nonetheless, I cut several sheets for testing with the “old” Silver Rag of which I have several boxes.  According to Museo’s posts on LuLa, the coating process is unchanged but the paper stock is sourced from a new supplier.  The stiffness of the new paper appears identical which is a positive for me since the Museo cut sheets stay flat during prolonged storage and don’t cause problems with head strikes as some other manufacturer’s sheets.

Visual inspection of the paper surface shows little or no difference.  I did not observe any blotches, specks or any other foreign debris on the surface of the “new” paper.  However, the “new” paper is slightly less smooth under a magnifying glass (evident in the printed color patches).  I don’t think that this show up on prints but I have not tested that yet.
I used ArgyllCMS for generating target patches and reading them.  I printed 482 random patches that included four white patches and a 21 step grey set on letter sized paper.  Targets were dried overnight and read with an i1 Pro.  Duplicate patch sets were printed and each set read twice changing the direction of the reading (ArgyllCMS permits bidirectional or unidirectional reading using an i1 Pro).  CIE as D50 L*a*b* as well as XYZ data were recorded.  Black and white densities were calculated using this data and tool on Bruce Lindbloom’s website .  Those results are:

“new” Silver Rag:  white – 0.0387; black – 2.2453
“old” Silver Rag:  white -  0.0375; black – 2.235

a difference that is measurable but likely visually indistinguishable.

Examination of the data on the color patches does not show much statistical difference at all except for three patches which are random colors.  This was a result of a strange reading on one of the sheets of the “old” paper for which I have no explanation.   I will probably print another set of patches just to confirm that these were anomalies.
I am satisfied that the with the exception of the very slight surface difference that these two papers are identical in color and grey scale response.  I have enjoyed printing on Museo Silver Rag and will reorder once my current stock of paper is used up.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2011, 08:20:26 PM »
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we have seen slight variations in white point, which in turn accentuates gloss level. That said, the imaging performance and archival expectations have not been compromised.

If the white point is changing then it DOES change the imaging performance unless we're talking about a dE of less than 1. Have you ever printed something in black and white? Wink The white point of the paper kinda plays a huge role there! When you say you've "seen" a difference in white point... have you seen that difference with your eyes, or have you seen that difference with a spectrophotometer during QA? I'll assume it's the latter in which case, what kind of difference are you seeing?

Cheers, Joe
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2011, 12:36:37 AM »
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All it took was an e-mail to Museo to get a courteous response back with the poster's real name and position within Museo. 
That's nice ... but it should have been disclosed to everyone.  If you are going to come onto a board claiming to be/speak for/represent a manufacturer, it's inappropriate to not validate your credentials including your actual relationship/authority.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2011, 07:35:30 AM »
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If the white point is changing then it DOES change the imaging performance unless we're talking about a dE of less than 1. Have you ever printed something in black and white? Wink The white point of the paper kinda plays a huge role there! When you say you've "seen" a difference in white point... have you seen that difference with your eyes, or have you seen that difference with a spectrophotometer during QA? I'll assume it's the latter in which case, what kind of difference are you seeing?

Cheers, Joe
Joe, the 21 step grey scale data that I generated really show no difference between the two papers.  The plots superimpose on top of one another.

Alan
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fetish
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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2011, 07:39:42 AM »
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Last week I received a roll of the “new” Silver Rag from Museo.  I should have told them to send me a small sample of letter size cut sheets since I have an Epson 3880 printer and it is cumbersome to cut and decurl sheets from rolls.  Nonetheless, I cut several sheets for testing with the “old” Silver Rag of which I have several boxes.  According to Museo’s posts on LuLa, the coating process is unchanged but the paper stock is sourced from a new supplier.  The stiffness of the new paper appears identical which is a positive for me since the Museo cut sheets stay flat during prolonged storage and don’t cause problems with head strikes as some other manufacturer’s sheets.

Visual inspection of the paper surface shows little or no difference.  I did not observe any blotches, specks or any other foreign debris on the surface of the “new” paper.  However, the “new” paper is slightly less smooth under a magnifying glass (evident in the printed color patches).  I don’t think that this show up on prints but I have not tested that yet.
I used ArgyllCMS for generating target patches and reading them.  I printed 482 random patches that included four white patches and a 21 step grey set on letter sized paper.  Targets were dried overnight and read with an i1 Pro.  Duplicate patch sets were printed and each set read twice changing the direction of the reading (ArgyllCMS permits bidirectional or unidirectional reading using an i1 Pro).  CIE as D50 L*a*b* as well as XYZ data were recorded.  Black and white densities were calculated using this data and tool on Bruce Lindbloom’s website .  Those results are:

“new” Silver Rag:  white – 0.0387; black – 2.2453
“old” Silver Rag:  white -  0.0375; black – 2.235

a difference that is measurable but likely visually indistinguishable.

Examination of the data on the color patches does not show much statistical difference at all except for three patches which are random colors.  This was a result of a strange reading on one of the sheets of the “old” paper for which I have no explanation.   I will probably print another set of patches just to confirm that these were anomalies.
I am satisfied that the with the exception of the very slight surface difference that these two papers are identical in color and grey scale response.  I have enjoyed printing on Museo Silver Rag and will reorder once my current stock of paper is used up.


Thanks for your efforts testing the paper Alan,

this test shows much promise that the problem is solved, hopefully.
the difference in white and black points are probably from the minute ageing of the coating between the batches.

looking forward to test the samples Jen promised me too.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 07:41:40 AM by fetish » Logged
MuseoFineArt
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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2011, 08:01:35 AM »
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That's nice ... but it should have been disclosed to everyone.  If you are going to come onto a board claiming to be/speak for/represent a manufacturer, it's inappropriate to not validate your credentials including your actual relationship/authority.

My intent in not stating my name and position within the company was certainly not to take credibility away from my statements. The intent was to keep the focus on the product itself versus back and fourth banter with former resellers. My name is Jennifer Chagnon and I am the Senior Marketing Manager at InteliCoat.

I acknowleged that there was a cotton shortage back in May that resulted in a stock shortage to the marketplace. We have since identified a cotton base paper source that is consitant and comparable to the former supplier. The inkjet receptive coating has not changed, and as previously mentioned, this is the primary performance driver for the product. Ofcourse white point is a key attribute in imaging output, however, this too can be controlled at the coating level. I am hopeful this response has cleared up any misconceptions.
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Jennifer Chagnon
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2011, 10:40:50 AM »
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Jennifer - thanks for your presence here.  Please know that most people's comments/ critiques are because of a love for this paper, which is one of the very best out there. I hope you can get things back to good stability of coating, substrate, etc,

Silver Rag certainly was available in 60" before, so it can be made, but maybe not on your current machines.

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MuseoFineArt
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« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2011, 07:44:59 AM »
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Hi snowygst,

I appreciate your response. All of the feedback on the latest run of Silver Rag gives me a high level of confidence that we have achieved comparable and repeatable product with our new base supplier. We will be running again next week to prove replication, at which point, the new qualification will be complete and behind us.

The Silver Rag is in fact still available in the 60 inch width. This is scheduled in our next coating campaign and should be on the shelf within a week.

Thank you for your business!
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Jennifer Chagnon
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« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2011, 08:05:31 AM »
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The Silver Rag is in fact still available in the 60 inch width. This is scheduled in our next coating campaign and should be on the shelf within a week.

That will be amazing if true.  We badly need a high quality 60" width baryta type. Everything great stops at 44", unless you go to Matte.
I hear Canson Platine is also coming in 60", so things seem on the move at last for big prints.
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