Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Museo Silver Rag problem?  (Read 10918 times)
Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1674


WWW
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2011, 12:29:53 PM »
ReplyReply

That will be amazing if true.  We badly need a high quality 60" width baryta type. Everything great stops at 44", unless you go to Matte.
I hear Canson Platine is also coming in 60", so things seem on the move at last for big prints.
Just note that neither Museo Silver Rag nor the Plantine from Canson are baryta papers.
Logged

jdoyle1713
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 172



WWW
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2012, 12:55:21 PM »
ReplyReply

Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 Grin
Logged

Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1674


WWW
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2012, 06:41:10 PM »
ReplyReply

Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 Grin
The bigger question will be how it stands up in light fast testing.  I got the e-mail from Shades of Paper last week about this new paper and when I looked at some comparable Innova papers in the Aardenburg tests, they were not as good as Museo Silver Rag.  Maybe this new paper will test better, I don't know but would be happy to sponsor a test of it.  I'm glad to see that Dave Williams is still working in the business (he used to work at Museo) and am also disappointed that Shades of Paper is no longer carrying Museo products though I can appreciate business decisions that you have to make.
Logged

nemophoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 507



WWW
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2012, 08:13:34 AM »
ReplyReply

I beta tested the new Innova Fibaprint. Very, very nice paper. If you liked the original Silver Rag, which I did -- my paper of choice, you'll love this paper. David Williams did a great job getting this paper out. I had a lot of the older Silver Rag, but as I run low, I'll refill with the new Innova.

Also, the comments on Silver Rag explains why my canned profiles from Museo for my new Pixma Pro-1 seemed out of wack. Obviously created with the "new" Silver Rag versus the "old"' which I have. Too bad Intellicoat messed with a good product. Museo's loss, Innova's gain.

Nemo
Logged

narikin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 861


« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2012, 08:19:14 PM »
ReplyReply

Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 Grin

Not in 60"rolls?  :-(
Logged
narikin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 861


« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2012, 07:24:00 AM »
ReplyReply

Not in 60"rolls?  :-(

whoops it IS in 60" rolls. hurrah.
 
Innova say it comes "at a price point well below the competitive products", but looks the same price to me - damn expensive!
$420 for just 50ft.  about 4x the price of high quality 300gsm 60" Alpha Cellulose photo paper. Plus the photo paper comes off the roll without any coating errors. Ever. With these papers some prints will always be lost to flaking, marks and glitches.

Hopefully the curl is not so fierce as IFA49 was, though?  Look forward to trying out a test piece at some point.

Logged
jdoyle1713
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 172



WWW
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2012, 09:35:31 AM »
ReplyReply

Its 100% Cotton Thats what makes it more expensive than an Alpha cell Paper.. It will also de curl alot better!

If Interested  on Orders Write LuLu and I will give everyone a 10% Discount off  until the end of the month!

Its a real nice Product and just needs to be seen

Best
Jim Doyle
http://shadesofpaper.com Cheesy
Logged

Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1674


WWW
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2012, 12:38:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Its 100% Cotton Thats what makes it more expensive than an Alpha cell Paper.. It will also de curl alot better!

Its a real nice Product and just needs to be seen

Best
Jim Doyle
http://shadesofpaper.com Cheesy
Jack,

Cellulose is cellulose regardless of the source.  Just because one paper may be made out of cotton lint (they really don't use rag stock any longer) or another is made out of properly processed alpha-cellulose really doesn't affect the property of the paper one iota.  All that it means is that sourced cellulose is different.  Cotton just requires less processing, it's no better or worse source for cellulose.  Paper manufacturers are simply promoting "100% cotton" paper as something special and probably have a much higher profit margin as a result.  Those of us who print on a variety of papers know this and the fact that Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and Canson Baryta Photographique have been so widely accepted indicates that alpha-cellulose papers perform at the highest level.

Alan
Logged

abiggs
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 555



WWW
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2012, 02:59:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
[cotton]..it's no better or worse source for cellulose.

That's a pretty bold statement, and one that I doubt is supported by many people.
Logged

Andy Biggs
http://www.andybiggs.com
Africa Photo Safaris | Workshops | Fine Art Prints
TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 361


WWW
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2012, 03:54:05 PM »
ReplyReply

for me the d curling is a huge issue, so I hope it's true. Some of these thick photo surface hard papers coming off a large roll are almost unmanagable. HPR BAryta is far better in that regard, and it is cotton. Still way too many flecks though.
I hope this new paper performs well and I hope to try it, in the same category, Cone Type 5 is a beautiful paper that looks similar, not quite as shiny though. It's been my warmer photo surface paper here for some time, replacing SilverRag.
Tyler
Logged
narikin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 861


« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2012, 04:01:54 PM »
ReplyReply

That's a pretty bold statement, and one that I doubt is supported by many people.

well Aardenberg shows Alpha Cellulose papers can be great. but I guess that isn't "many people"?

Don't mix up short longevity of some papers with the fact that they are alpha cellulose. Yes lots of cheap nasty papers with high OBA's in them are made with Alpha Cellulose because its... cheaper.

That doesn't mean great high quality AC one can't exist. Look at Canon Heavyweight 300gsm Satin in Aardenberg. goes over 100years. Affordable, durable, great gamut, 100% coating defect free, and near the very top of longevity ratings. Or try Canson Baryta - that's near very top too.  Or the closely related (wink) IGFS.

Put away one's need for the "feel" of "art papers" - which is completely irrelevant once they are framed - and you find some excellent AC products out there.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 04:20:50 PM by narikin » Logged
JimGoshorn
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 174



« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2012, 04:13:59 PM »
ReplyReply

I like Canson Baryta Photographique and the only thing about it that seems odd is that the back of the print feels almost as smooth as an RC paper. Would prefer more of a cotton paper feel with some tooth like the Platine.

Jim
Logged
KeithR
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 632


« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »
ReplyReply

Hello Gang

Just a quick Note Dave Williams and Innova Fine art must have been reading my thread.. They have come out with a 100% cotton Gloss just like "Silver Rag"

After Testing Several Rolls The prints look really alike .. at least they look like the original SR..

Thanks Mike, Dave & Wayne at Innova for listening..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
htpp:/www.shadesofpaper.com
 Grin

Is there a name for this substrate? Shocked
Logged

The destination is our goal but its the journey that educates us.
MHMG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 623


« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2012, 04:31:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Jack,

Cellulose is cellulose regardless of the source.  Just because one paper may be made out of cotton lint (they really don't use rag stock any longer) or another is made out of properly processed alpha-cellulose really doesn't affect the property of the paper one iota.  All that it means is that sourced cellulose is different.  
Alan

Alan, I think from a chemical perspective you are essentially correct, and hence a high quality alphacellulose paper may very well have the chemical stability (and longevity) of a "100%" cotton paper. However, there are distinct material property differences between cotton and alphacellulose papers that do give credence to what Jim D is saying about de-curling as well as other materials handling attributes. The molecular chain lengths of the fibers can differ.  

All papers have anisotropic material properties which leads to craft terms like "warp and weft" or "long-grain" and "short grain" paper characteristics. These material properties are influenced by the molecular chain length of the chosen linters, i.e., cotton or wood pulp, and many other factors as well, including the mechanical press properties of the paper making machinery. In other words, you could supply the same linters to two different paper mills and the products produced will still have different chemical, physical, and mechanical properties. Much of this reality is due to the fact that terms like "100% cotton" paper are really a misnomer. While the source of the linters used in the paper may be 100% cotton, the final product has many other chemical components including sizings, surfactants, whiteners, inorganic fillers like calcium carbonate, etc. Bottom line: cotton and high-quality alpha cellulose acid and lignin-free papers are still two very different final products. It's not just chemistry of the linters. It's all the other junk, plus the unique mechanical paper-forming properties associated with individual mills that produce the papers.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 04:35:16 PM by MHMG » Logged
Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1674


WWW
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2012, 04:33:29 PM »
ReplyReply

That's a pretty bold statement, and one that I doubt is supported by many people.
Andy, I'm not talking about the coating on the paper but only about cellulose.  There is NO chemical difference between cellulose derived from cotton vs. any other source.  The issue with non-cotton sources is processing to make sure that lignin is removed.  This paper chemistry is very well understood and good paper can be made with cotton, hemp, bamboo, sugar cane, trees, etc.  PROVIDING it is processed correctly.  Cotton has commanded a premium price because of it's history and not necessarily it's performance.  Clearly there are differences in papers relative to coating, weight, OBA content and other factors but don't confuse cellulose with this.
Logged

Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1674


WWW
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2012, 04:40:47 PM »
ReplyReply

While the source of the linters used in the paper may be 100% cotton, the final product has many other chemical components including sizings, surfactants, whiteners, inorganic fillers like calcium carbonate, etc. Bottom line: cotton and high-quality alpha cellulose acid and lignin-free papers are still two very different final products. It's not just chemistry of the linters. It's all the other junk, plus the unique mechanical paper-forming properties associated with individual mills that produce the papers.
Thanks for the comment Mark.  Of course this is true which is why you see a marked difference between "cotton" papers from different manufacturers (same applies to "alpha-cellulose" papers but of course cotton is also an alpha-cellulose paper).  One of the great features of the Museo Silver and Portfolio Rag papers was their stiffness (talking about sheets and not rolls) and I've never had any problems with edge curl upon prolonged storage.  The few Hahnemuhle papers that I've used (also "cotton" based) tend to exhibit edge and corner curl pretty quickly and one needs to take some precautions prior to printing to avoid head strikes (Epson 3880) despite the fact that these are essentially the same weight and thickness as their Museo counterparts.
Logged

MHMG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 623


« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2012, 04:54:42 PM »
ReplyReply

The few Hahnemuhle papers that I've used (also "cotton" based) tend to exhibit edge and corner curl pretty quickly and one needs to take some precautions prior to printing to avoid head strikes (Epson 3880) despite the fact that these are essentially the same weight and thickness as their Museo counterparts.


Yup, there's a lot of anti-curl layer coating technology going into inkjet papers as well. Very few media have no back coating. Take a close look at any one of your favorite inkjet papers. Odds are good there's at least some level of back coating to counteract the curl of the top coating. Anti-curl technology is a whole other discussion, but I agree with you, Alan. HN could use a little R&D improvement there. Intellicoat has "lay-flat" characteristics in its Museo line of paper down to a science, but the coating chemistry has some interactions with the OEM inks that could use some improvement, and, of course, some supply-chain issues that were the original basis for this topic. I could go on vendor after vendor with pros and cons, but eyes would glaze over. Simply put, as end-users we have to keep pressing all the manufacturers to keep striving for better and better  Smiley
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 05:00:49 PM by MHMG » Logged
kdphotography
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


WWW
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2012, 05:08:37 PM »
ReplyReply

Is there a name for this substrate? Shocked

This should be the link to the Innova paper:  http://www.shadesofpaper.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=706
Logged

Canson21
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


WWW
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2012, 12:07:33 PM »
ReplyReply

CANSON INFINITY Platine Fibre Rag 310gsm is available in  60"x50' Roll

Logged

Regards,  and still learning...
Canson21
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


WWW
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2012, 12:10:22 PM »
ReplyReply

CANSON INFINITY Platine Fibre Rag 310gsm Is available in a 60"x50' Roll

Logged

Regards,  and still learning...
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad