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Author Topic: H2&P45+ or H4d-40?  (Read 10142 times)
eronald
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« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2011, 01:43:45 AM »
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I bought a Phase One but state freely that I would not recommend that experience to anyone else. Does that mark me as dishonest or a fraud? I think I can answer the question for myself. It just marks me as an idiot. No news here.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 01:48:46 AM by eronald » Logged
JV
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« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2011, 07:50:24 AM »
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Nobody tried to write anything just lying like you. Each equipment has disadvantages. I do not write only about the shortcomings of Hasselblad equipment. You are forewarned. I have written many times about the shortcomings of the P1 camera. So I demand an apology. And who are you really? Also there is no signature. Destroy the Hasselblad brand? you're kidding yourself. Leadership commits to something! Maybe that's why often points out the flaws. Until then, I believe that the equipment P1 is more stable and reliable, despite some ergonomic shortcomings. When it comes to the same DB, there are still a lot in the front before the Hasselblad. I'm not trying to destroy anyone, quite the contrary. I believe that competition is good. Time will tell us, who used his chance and who does not.

OP should buy  p45 + h2 - if not completely allowed transition options for system p1. Larger sensor, 1h exposure, lack of microlenses.The ability to use film. Very stable, proven design of this equipment. Price is the same, and many more possibilities.

Dear design_freak, last post on this topic, you are putting words in my mouth that I never used.  I never said that you “only” wrote about the shortcomings of Hasselblad.  I said that you overemphasized and enlarged its shortcomings and I stick to that.  I also never said that you were “destroying” Hasselblad. I would never give you that much credit.  I said that you deliberately were trying to damage Hasselblad and I stick to that.  As to my identity,  I am an amateur shooter with a H1/P30+ combo and 5 lenses.  I have no affiliation with Hasselblad nor Phase One whatsoever.  Besides that  I have no intentions whatsoever to offer any apologies to somebody who calls me a liar.   BTW, if you were truly trying to be objective you might also want to mention to the OP that the Phase One camera has a mirror lockup problem, that Capture 1 only supports 6 out of 9 HC lenses, that the P45+ has a much poorer ISO performance, etc.   If these were shortcomings of the Hasselblad system you would be repeating them over and over again in each and every discussed thread…
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« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2011, 08:17:45 AM »
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Dear design_freak, last post on this topic, you are putting words in my mouth that I never used.  I never said that you “only” wrote about the shortcomings of Hasselblad.  I said that you overemphasized and enlarged its shortcomings and I stick to that.  I also never said that you were “destroying” Hasselblad. I would never give you that much credit.  I said that you deliberately were trying to damage Hasselblad and I stick to that.  As to my identity,  I am an amateur shooter with a H1/P30+ combo and 5 lenses.  I have no affiliation with Hasselblad nor Phase One whatsoever.  Besides that  I have no intentions whatsoever to offer any apologies to somebody who calls me a liar.   BTW, if you were truly trying to be objective you might also want to mention to the OP that the Phase One camera has a mirror lockup problem, that Capture 1 only supports 6 out of 9 HC lenses, that the P45+ has a much poorer ISO performance, etc.   If these were shortcomings of the Hasselblad system you would be repeating them over and over again in each and every discussed thread…

You wrote that I do not see flaws of others, and just exaggerate flaws Hasselblad.  Listen, it's hard to pass by some problems, especially when you disturb or even prevent your job. You mention that there are any problems with the HC lenses in Capture 1, what exactly is it? What does it mean that it is not support? It does not show a picture made ​​of these lenses? What kind of problems you have with the Phase One camera? What model do you have?
If you are using a H1+P30+. How do you know that H4D40 is better than h2+P45 +? hmmm?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 08:22:31 AM by design_freak » Logged

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Ajoy Roy
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« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2011, 08:21:10 AM »
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What happened to the original discussion?

Some of us are still interested in getting the views of actual users. Here is my take

. If you want long exposures, then P45+ is a no brainer.
. If you are like me, satisfied with normal exposure times and would love to get higher ISO, as well as an integrated camera/back system, then it is H4D-40 or some may prefer P40 with Phase camera, especially those who do not mind 10MP at higher ISO once in a while, P40 is definitely better choice.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 08:24:15 AM by Ajoy Roy » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2011, 11:01:56 AM »
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In addition to superior handling, TrueFocus, a wide range of leaf shutter lenses, the HTS tilt and shift adapter, competitive pricing,and an unrivalled support network Hasselblad now has much better integration with Lightroom and Camera Raw.  No contest in my view.  It is the H4D all the way!
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« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2011, 11:22:34 AM »
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I'm an actual user of a H4D-50.  I see advantages in the integrated approach adopted by Hasselblad.  

Perhaps the difference between Phase and Hasselblad is that Phase One are primarily makers of digital backs, whereas Hasselblad are primarily makers of Cameras.  That may be too simplistic, but it does inform their design approach.   Hasselblad have gone for the integrated approach where the digital back is but one part of the bigger picture.   This allows them to offer True Focus better system integration.  

I have been and remain happy with my H4D-50 and would recommend Hasselblad.  With Hasselblad you are buying a system, not a component in a system.
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design_freak
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« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2011, 02:15:29 PM »
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In addition to superior handling, TrueFocus, a wide range of leaf shutter lenses, the HTS tilt and shift adapter, competitive pricing,and an unrivalled support network Hasselblad now has much better integration with Lightroom and Camera Raw.  No contest in my view.  It is the H4D all the way!

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news/hts-15-notification.aspx

If it's true ...
The question is why

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2011, 02:30:37 PM »
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I'm an actual user of a H4D-50.  I see advantages in the integrated approach adopted by Hasselblad.  

Perhaps the difference between Phase and Hasselblad is that Phase One are primarily makers of digital backs, whereas Hasselblad are primarily makers of Cameras.  That may be too simplistic, but it does inform their design approach.   Hasselblad have gone for the integrated approach where the digital back is but one part of the bigger picture.   This allows them to offer True Focus better system integration.  

I have been and remain happy with my H4D-50 and would recommend Hasselblad.  With Hasselblad you are buying a system, not a component in a system.



Yes, I agree that is too simplistic to consider Phase One a maker of digital backs, considering that in addition to making digital backs, Phase One also has a dominant ownership position with Mamiya, and counts in its product line Leaf Imaging, who have their own unique digital back technology as well as 6x6 camera technology (via the AFi). In addition, Phase One has forged a long term, formalized partnership with Schneider Optics who, in a relatively short period of time, have announced 6 Leaf Shutter lenses (4 currently shipping), and a 120mm T/S lens. This doesn't even touch on the software side of their business with Media Pro and Capture One.

The primary difference between the approach of Hasselblad and Phase One in terms of camera systems, is the level of integration and the fact that while their is indeed integration between the Phase One and Leaf digital backs and the Phase One/Mamiya DF Camera, Phase One/Mamiya have not restricted the ability of 3rd parties to create a digital back end for their front end product.While currently selling options for that are scarce, there are still a very large number of 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation digital backs that still have that option. The level of integration is certainly different, and that is due to the very different electronic design starting points of each camera.

Considering that there are not one, but two new cameras in development by Phase One/Mamiya, combined with the Schneider partnership, and factoring the Leaf technology team, I'd say Phase One is anything but primarily a digital back maker.

So back to the original OP, who probably fled for good reason, it is likely that his choice of H4D-40 and P45+ were based on pricing similarities, and as such, certainly there is merit in comparing the two products. Since he did not embellish his intended usage, the positives of each system stand alone.

P45+

*Best long, long exposure solution on the market for large sensors and high resolution
*Close to 90% 645 frame coverage
*Lower ISO starting point
*Significantly superior software platform with Capture One
*Ability to be used on other medium format camera platforms
*Ability to be used on technical/view cameras with a very wide array of the sharpest lenses available


Perhaps one of the most important unstated advantages for a Phase One owner is investing into a company that is internally-owned, with no one to answer to but themselves and who, from any objective accounting, are thriving as a company that possesses a desirable collection of segment-leading technology with a robust R&D department. And based on what we saw this year with the introduction of the IQ series, there's a lot more to come.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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Nick-T
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« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2011, 04:55:25 PM »
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Freak  HTS sales in the US are currently on hold because of a patent dispute, just ya know FYI.

Nick-T
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2011, 05:12:16 PM »
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Yes, I agree that is too simplistic to consider Phase One a maker of digital backs, considering that in addition to making digital backs, Phase One also has a dominant ownership position with Mamiya, and counts in its product line Leaf Imaging, who have their own unique digital back technology as well as 6x6 camera technology (via the AFi). In addition, Phase One has forged a long term, formalized partnership with Schneider Optics who, in a relatively short period of time, have announced 6 Leaf Shutter lenses (4 currently shipping), and a 120mm T/S lens. This doesn't even touch on the software side of their business with Media Pro and Capture One.

The primary difference between the approach of Hasselblad and Phase One in terms of camera systems, is the level of integration and the fact that while their is indeed integration between the Phase One and Leaf digital backs and the Phase One/Mamiya DF Camera, Phase One/Mamiya have not restricted the ability of 3rd parties to create a digital back end for their front end product.While currently selling options for that are scarce, there are still a very large number of 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation digital backs that still have that option. The level of integration is certainly different, and that is due to the very different electronic design starting points of each camera.

Considering that there are not one, but two new cameras in development by Phase One/Mamiya, combined with the Schneider partnership, and factoring the Leaf technology team, I'd say Phase One is anything but primarily a digital back maker.

So back to the original OP, who probably fled for good reason, it is likely that his choice of H4D-40 and P45+ were based on pricing similarities, and as such, certainly there is merit in comparing the two products. Since he did not embellish his intended usage, the positives of each system stand alone.

P45+

*Best long, long exposure solution on the market for large sensors and high resolution
*Close to 90% 645 frame coverage
*Lower ISO starting point
*Significantly superior software platform with Capture One
*Ability to be used on other medium format camera platforms
*Ability to be used on technical/view cameras with a very wide array of the sharpest lenses available


Perhaps one of the most important unstated advantages for a Phase One owner is investing into a company that is internally-owned, with no one to answer to but themselves and who, from any objective accounting, are thriving as a company that possesses a desirable collection of segment-leading technology with a robust R&D department. And based on what we saw this year with the introduction of the IQ series, there's a lot more to come.


Steve Hendrix
In addition to your correct post, I feel that it must be added that "buying price" is not "the actual cost". Buying from a "closed" system demands to "sign a contract" of loyalty with the manufacturer for future upgrade, lens dependence and mutual trust for the future. Such a loyalty can be very costly and even more so if a ...."divorce" will happen. If I would buy Hass I would go for the V system with P1, or Leaf, or Sinar, or S/H Imacon or CF, DBs. Thus I could use 2 DBs if I needed, use film, upgrade the back, keep the back and lenses and buy another makers camera, or whatever! But then again I'm more than happy with my Contax645 12 lens system and Imacon multishot back. If I was to upgrade the back, I would buy a modern refurbished one and keep my 528c for its superb multishot true color capabilities, If i was to upgrade my lenses..... upgrade to what?  Grin Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 05:37:36 PM by fotometria gr » Logged
design_freak
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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2011, 05:44:27 PM »
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Freak  HTS sales in the US are currently on hold because of a patent dispute, just ya know FYI.

Nick-T

Hi Nick,
It's just a shame, because it's really cool device. I trust that everything will end happily.

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John.Williams
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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2011, 08:22:31 PM »
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As many readers come here as a clearinghouse of information, I also wanted to be sure there was no confusion on the H4D-40 vs H2/P45+

  • The Hasselblad digital magazine can be removed and used on any mount that supports the "H" style, so this means a variety of technical cameras with digitar lenses;
  • The operation of Phocus in live video mode is not limited to short durations, a real value to studio shooters
  • RAW processing by Phocus versus CaptureOne is a toss-up, I am sure to get some noise about this and I welcome the opportunity to show the possibilities of Phocus to those who have experience with C1

There is something to be said about the differences in capability and compatibility as it relates to the H4D-40 and the H2/P45+:
The H4D is designed for the components to work together without barriers; the electronic autofocusing lens communicates real-time with the rest of the system as does the viewfinder, body, and digital magazine. The H2 cannot communicate with the P45+ at this level, so while compatible, it is at the expense of capable.

It is apparent that Hasselblad has pursued the capability route in terms of creating a DSLR system (body, lenses, magazine, software) that is capable of doing things that are unmatched by modular solutions; these were once features of 35mm but now expected performance basics by photographers in 2011.

Additionally, it appears that PhaseOne with agreements mentioned by Steve above with Mamiya, Schneider, and Leaf are also pursuing a DSLR system in parallel to the existing modular "compatibility" solution. One form of compatibility is manually focusing a lens instead of controlling the lens electronically, another is leaving the lens open in order to focus while in live video mode, yet another means supporting a camera system no longer in production (i.e. Fuji GX680 or Contax) I argue: Is this the way forward?

The challenges are not insignificant in either route; I will say that it is incredibly difficult to get many teams working in conjunction to produce the equipment that is available for you to purchase at your leisure.

Each company has selected a strategic avenue to you - the paying client - who vote with your $$$. In the process of competing, you benefit from the R&D, the contributions of each manufacturer to the photographic community (Hasselblad Masters, etc.) and advancement of imaging to distinguish your capabilities from the masses that do not (yet) possess matching capability.

Do your research, solicit opinions from users (and brand affectionados) then get a hands-on demo! This will allow you to determine if the equipment solution will work for your specific requirements.

Be Well!

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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2011, 11:10:22 PM »
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I should make clear a couple things.

First, my bullet point regarding P45+ and use on Technical/View Cameras with a large assortment of Schneider/Rodenstock lenses means lenses that range from the 23mm Rodenstock on up, with the ability to take full advantage or nearly full advantage of the image circles of any of these lenses. I don't know that the H4D-40, with its microlenses - similarly to the P30+ or H4D-31 -  can provide the same performance. John - you'll have to let us know the results of your testing.  Smiley

While I did not mention it, we certainly have many clients who still utilize a Hasselblad H1 or H2 camera system with the Phase One or Leaf digital back of their choice, despite the H2 being discontinued by Hasselblad. This is a choice. There's nothing wrong with the choice if it works for them (and it does). But though the OP mentioned P45+/H2, it should be pointed out that he can also consider the P45+ on numerous other camera platforms (Contax, Hasselbald V, and certainly Phase One/Mamiya). Indeed he went so far as to mention the flash sync speed advantage the Phase One DF has over the Hasselblad H system as a particular desire for him.

I also want to say that while a camera system may be made up of "modular" components, I don't necessarily agree that "integration", the idea that the camera system is a complete unit rather than a set of modular components, is not an option for a modular system. There is substantial integration between the Phase One/Mamiya DF Camera and Leaf and Phase One digital backs. I don't believe they necessarily need to be exclusive.

Will the new camera systems from Phase One in the coming years prove to be completely proprietary (non-modular)? That remains to be seen. At this point, however, Phase One has shown that enhanced integration can be achieved while still maintaining a modular system.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2011, 12:46:05 AM »
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You mention that there are any problems with the HC lenses in Capture 1, what exactly is it? What does it mean that it is not support? It does not show a picture made ​​of these lenses?

Capture One supports the 35mm, 80mm, 100mm, 120mm, 150mm and 50-110mm lenses.  It does not support the 50mm(-II), 210mm and 300mm lenses.  As I am looking to buy the 50mm-II lens this is a concern.  If I had a fully integrated Hasselblad solution I wouldn't have to worry about this. 

What kind of problems you have with the Phase One camera? What model do you have?

I don't have a Phase One camera but I can read that it has a mirror lockup problem:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30729
and even on this let's say rather Phase One minded site there was a recent article saying "The use of the DF camera is far from being comfortably and reliable – a big step downwards even from the H1! I still have at least one camera lockup per 50 exposures and AF is not reliable enough. "
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/iq180_vs_8x10.shtml

I did try out the Phase One camera once and I fully agree with how it was once worded on this forum: "Phase One body is very poor ergonomics, poorly balanced, the grip is too short (sticks in hand), by fitting the V-grip can work, but unfortunately it is not well designed, bad choice of wheels are arranged, after an hour of work is being felt pain. All the time you have to use two batteries, one for the body, one for DB. Also circulated a myth that the Phase One camera is smaller, lighter and has better optics. I strongly invite you to test, I use both systems and I know what I say. In the case of the Hasselblad can talk about your system, in the case of Phase One did not. Still a lot of work on the Phase One camera system.

Now, who was it again who said that?  Oh wait, it was you!!!!!

If you are using a H1+P30+. How do you know that H4D40 is better than h2+P45 +? hmmm?

I don't.  Even if I had shot both systems for years it would still be my opinion and somebody else could have an entirely different opinion.  Luckily I have the same author as above to guide me: "H4D40 is according to me the best camera, which was developed over the last few years.".  I believe at the moment you wrote that the H2/P45+ combination was already available, wasn't it...  Wink
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Ajoy Roy
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« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2011, 01:06:22 AM »
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The interesting point to note is that the original query boils down to the choice between H4D-40 and P45+ backs, as both options were for the Hasselblad Camera. Which to a certain extent shows the desirability of a Hasselblad body over the Phase body to the thread starter.

Till phase comes up with a better camera, the Hasselblad Camera with its leaf shutter lenses seems to be more desirable, compared to the Phase camera. But that has to change; if Phase wants to keep all the sales dollars to itself; it needs a comparable (if not better) camera soon.
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« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2011, 03:41:04 AM »
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Will the new camera systems from Phase One in the coming years prove to be completely proprietary (non-modular)? That remains to be seen. At this point, however, Phase One has shown that enhanced integration can be achieved while still maintaining a modular system.


Steve Hendrix
+1. Enhanced "system integration" is one thing, "closed system" is another, I guess we wouldn't have this discussion at all if Hass would offer the opportunity for an H4 body version that would be able to accept different makers DBs, even if this would mean that true focus wouldn't work. OTOH their decision to stop the production of the CFs, shows that they want to "close" the V system as well (having a dedicated back for V-only means that when want to upgrade the back, the back can only return on another V). I want to make clear that the last thing we photographers want is to be the "victims" of a single supplier, either if its P1 or Hass. I feel that excuses for "system integration" can't fool anybody since its independent from opening the system. I'm sure that their (suicidal) policy is a wrong marketing decision that may at the end prove to be fatal and I hope they change it before its too late. They drive customers to the competition AND shrink the MF market at the same time!  Cry Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2011, 04:20:10 AM »
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Capture One supports the 35mm, 80mm, 100mm, 120mm, 150mm and 50-110mm lenses.  It does not support the 50mm(-II), 210mm and 300mm lenses.  As I am looking to buy the 50mm-II lens this is a concern.  If I had a fully integrated Hasselblad solution I wouldn't have to worry about this. 

I don't have a Phase One camera but I can read that it has a mirror lockup problem:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30729
and even on this let's say rather Phase One minded site there was a recent article saying "The use of the DF camera is far from being comfortably and reliable – a big step downwards even from the H1! I still have at least one camera lockup per 50 exposures and AF is not reliable enough. "
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/iq180_vs_8x10.shtml

I did try out the Phase One camera once and I fully agree with how it was once worded on this forum: "Phase One body is very poor ergonomics, poorly balanced, the grip is too short (sticks in hand), by fitting the V-grip can work, but unfortunately it is not well designed, bad choice of wheels are arranged, after an hour of work is being felt pain. All the time you have to use two batteries, one for the body, one for DB. Also circulated a myth that the Phase One camera is smaller, lighter and has better optics. I strongly invite you to test, I use both systems and I know what I say. In the case of the Hasselblad can talk about your system, in the case of Phase One did not. Still a lot of work on the Phase One camera system.

Now, who was it again who said that?  Oh wait, it was you!!!!!

I don't.  Even if I had shot both systems for years it would still be my opinion and somebody else could have an entirely different opinion.  Luckily I have the same author as above to guide me: "H4D40 is according to me the best camera, which was developed over the last few years.".  I believe at the moment you wrote that the H2/P45+ combination was already available, wasn't it...  Wink



1. Learn one thing, the most important element of any system is the man. Cameras do not decide whether the picture is good. It's you decide about it. The camera is only a tool. For the professional, the problem about which you write does not exist. Annie Leibovitz takes pictures Mamiya RZ67 camera (analog), and her pictures are worse than your? Certainly not! They are far more important elements that determine the choice of the system. Only an amateur might think so! Marketing goal was achieved :-)

2. As for ergonomics, there is nothing to discuss, I am still upholds sentence on camera ergonomics P1. But this again is not so important. 8x10, RZ67, even 503cw also are not somehow special ergonomic, but the professionals around the world are using them successfully to this day. Keep in mind that P1 has prepared two new systems of cameras that will be presented soon. I am confident that they will be very thought-constructions, very ergonomic. Do not forget also that it was "Hasselblad" forced "P1" to build a camera, in a relatively short time. Unfortunately I fear that if it had hasselblad do something like that, to this day we would see only a prototype in a glass case.

3. It should be noted also that confident about who writes these posts. My impression is that this man was again substituted. I use this camera and I know that does not crash every 10 images. Mayby ones at 500 shots.
May I say that is a big problem with the hot shoe of Hasselblad. Also very annoying ailment.

4. I still think this is the best camera(H4D40) Hasselblad factory which produced  (digital). But the camera itself is not enough, this camera has yet to be reliable, software needs to be polished and stable. But how would you know, people call me with problems, they do not call you. I've used this equipment a few years and every day. I met a P1 system, now I know its a huge advantage. Now waiting for a new camera.
For me it is logical that the op should buy a system P1.New lenses LS are great, just be able to buy another 4 new models.  But he asked which option to choose. (Between H4D40 and H2 + p45 +)
Of the two options I would choose H2 + p45 +.  For reasons already given on previous posts.

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« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2011, 03:39:21 PM »
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My last thoughts on this, speaking as a long time hasselblad user.

If we return to the OPs original question we can assume he likes the H camera.

An H2 and an H4 are visually the same but the integration on the H4D40 means that there are some nice features:

Automated lens corrections and distortion corrections, (amazing with the HTS) that are much better than any other corrections due to the exact metadata being leveraged.

True Focus, the focus/recompose correction thingy. I'm a big fan and use this everyday, check it out.

One battery powers body/back

Camera control (thumbwheels) of back LCD and a bunch of other clever stuff that you'll need someone like John Williams to show you.


Then it comes down to a choice between sensor and software.

Sensor first. The Kodak 39 chip is a good chip and with Phase's implementation you can shoot up to an hour, but do note you will then need to shoot another one hour exposure for a black frame to calculate out noise specific to that exposure.

The 40 is also a Kodak but microlensed, this means you get better ISO performance than the 39 but may cause problems on tech cameras (not that the OP asked about that)

The 40 is a much newer generation chip I would guess 5 years newer than the 39 (Steve is this right?)

I have compared the 40 with the 31 and it is much better (I own a 31) apparently the 40 has better dies making for better colours.

Lastly get someone who knows both Capture One and Phocus to show you how they work. Capture One has long been the gold standard but Phocus has come on leaps and bounds and has some neat party tricks (Phocus mobile for one) again get someone who knows their stuff to give you a demo.

HTH
Nick-T

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« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2011, 06:00:29 PM »
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To answer the original post, I feel the H system offers far more options than the P45 combo, such as True Focus and the HTS, among other features. I like an integrated system, Hasselblad support has been there for me, including Steve when he was an H-man. I will also add that the H lens line up is superb. You can't go wrong. In fact, if you went with an H2 and a film back, as I did for a number of years, you'd be able to produce incredible results, trust me. Good luck.

Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
www.jecxz.com
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vduault
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« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2011, 06:33:21 AM »
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What is your current gear ? if you want to go to MF equipment, is it just for image quality ? are you considering to work differently ?
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