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Author Topic: New "mirrorless" Nikon  (Read 18537 times)
Wayne Fox
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« on: September 21, 2011, 05:12:35 PM »
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Wraps finally came off on this ... a few surprises.  They went with a smaller than 4/3rds sensor, I assume to make the camera smaller.  Guess we'll see some IQ tests in the near future to see if this was  a good move or not.

http://nikon.com/news/2011/0921_digital_01.htm
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uaiomex
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 08:39:11 PM »
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Apparently the only thing smaller than 4/3 is the sensor. Cry
Eduardo


Wraps finally came off on this ... a few surprises.  They went with a smaller than 4/3rds sensor, I assume to make the camera smaller.  Guess we'll see some IQ tests in the near future to see if this was  a good move or not.

http://nikon.com/news/2011/0921_digital_01.htm
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stever
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 09:32:56 PM »
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it looks like Nikon bent over backward to protect the DSLR line - ultimately i think this is the wrong choice and larger sensors will prevail

if you're investing in a camera system the small sensor IQ limitations are a big negative

at least they got the VF right, hope Panasonic and Olympus will take a lesson here
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 10:00:39 PM »
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Just as an aside to that, today my Canon rep was in with some sample prints from the s100. While the original announcement seemed sort of a yawner, after seeing the IQ gains (very usable ISO 1600)  there is a lot more to this camera than I originally thought.  Personally I think it might be very close to the new Nikons in IQ.  I'm not sure why nikon thought an upgraded point and shoot (which isn't small enough to be a point and shoot) was the way to go.  Guess we'll see.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 10:46:01 PM »
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Hi,

I fail to see the benefits of small cameras, unless they are flat so they will fit into a pocket. Aside from that, the Sony NEX cameras with APS sensors are small, definitively small compared to the lenses. With a small sensor the lenses can also be small. That is of course and advantage. But I guess that the EVIL market is perhaps not about you and me.

Best regards
Erik


Just as an aside to that, today my Canon rep was in with some sample prints from the s100. While the original announcement seemed sort of a yawner, after seeing the IQ gains (very usable ISO 1600)  there is a lot more to this camera than I originally thought.  Personally I think it might be very close to the new Nikons in IQ.  I'm not sure why nikon thought an upgraded point and shoot (which isn't small enough to be a point and shoot) was the way to go.  Guess we'll see.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 10:58:24 PM »
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Hi,

I fail to see the benefits of small cameras, unless they are flat so they will fit into a pocket. Aside from that, the Sony NEX cameras with APS sensors are small, definitively small compared to the lenses. With a small sensor the lenses can also be small. That is of course and advantage. But I guess that the EVIL market is perhaps not about you and me.

Best regards
Erik



I'd agree.  I like my NEX-5 with the 16mm and my Fuji x100.  I'd rather carry a small DSLR than the NEX-5 with the 18-55 or anything bigger..
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 10:59:44 PM »
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Just as an aside to that, today my Canon rep was in with some sample prints from the s100. While the original announcement seemed sort of a yawner, after seeing the IQ gains (very usable ISO 1600)  there is a lot more to this camera than I originally thought.  Personally I think it might be very close to the new Nikons in IQ.  I'm not sure why nikon thought an upgraded point and shoot (which isn't small enough to be a point and shoot) was the way to go.  Guess we'll see.

Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?

Now, the J1/V1 is not targeting folks like us. It is targeting all the mothers in the world who are tired of being unable to get sharp pictures of their fast moving young children with compact cameras. From its design and spec, I belive that the J1/V1 is likely to be without much competition for those people.

God nows this market in much larger than that of high end shooters.

Cheers,
Bernard


Cheers,
Bernard
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 12:14:04 AM »
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Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?

Now, the J1/V1 is not targeting folks like us. It is targeting all the mothers in the world who are tired of being unable to get sharp pictures of their fast moving young children with compact cameras. From its design and spec, I belive that the J1/V1 is likely to be without much competition for those people.

God nows this market in much larger than that of high end shooters.

Some good points.  No, I haven't seen files yet, my Canon rep is much more aggressive and helpful than my Nikon rep.  I assume he'll get around some day.  And they could be very good, so my comment was more about how the s100 (a true pocket camera) is a pretty big improvement in many regards to the s95 (cmos not ccd, smart image stability, major improvements in high ISO, 8 fps burst rate, improved focusing, smart white balance ... can use two different white balances in a scene (foreground flash background tungsten), greater zoom range.

I can see that's where Nikons "target" is, but no one at a best buy or other type of store will really be able to sell this well.  A lot of those moms come to camera stores, where there are several other choices (such as sony NEX or a55/65).  I can't imagine a camera store pushing these when they can sell a Sony ... better margins, protected pricing so no price slashing etc. and proven technology.

Guess we'll see ... we'll probably bring a couple into the store so maybe after having one in hand I'll see things differently.
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 12:37:10 AM »
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Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?

J1 @ http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NIKONJ1/NIKONJ1GALLERY.HTM

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 12:48:39 AM »
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The small versions seem incredibly good on the screen of my iPhone (:-)), how are they when watched at 100% on a real screen?

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 12:58:40 AM »
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I can see that's where Nikons "target" is, but no one at a best buy or other type of store will really be able to sell this well.  A lot of those moms come to camera stores, where there are several other choices (such as sony NEX or a55/65).  I can't imagine a camera store pushing these when they can sell a Sony ... better margins, protected pricing so no price slashing etc. and proven technology.

I believe that it will be an easy sell in Tokyo. My mother will litteraly run to get one if it performs per the specs.

Which somehow doesn't mean that my mother lives in Tokyo, contrary to a widespread popular belief.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 01:33:14 AM »
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Has Nikon posted high ISO raw files shot with the V1?

Now, the J1/V1 is not targeting folks like us. It is targeting all the mothers in the world who are tired of being unable to get sharp pictures of their fast moving young children with compact cameras. From its design and spec, I belive that the J1/V1 is likely to be without much competition for those people.

God nows this market in much larger than that of high end shooters.

Cheers,
Bernard


Cheers,
Bernard

I think so too.  Yet, I don't see many mothers looking to spend $649 or $899 to do this.  Even very capable HD video cameras which are more appealing to this genre go for half the price.  I can't help but feel, if this is their main target, that they missed in a huge way.

Now.. put that focusing technology in a $300 Coolpix.. and they'd have a winner.  And eventually they probably will.  But banking on the 'dissatisfied' segment of the $200-$300 PNS market to all of a sudden be willing to plunk down $700-$900 because of a promise of better focused images?  Not a chance.
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LKaven
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 02:32:48 AM »
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I agree that this camera system is not aimed at us.  I don't even think that it's aimed at the US market.  I think this is more intended for the asian market, and especially the Japanese domestic market.  I guess I look at it as a kind of an upper-middle class snapshot camera.  I guess the series 1 cameras are what I always thought P&S cameras should be in the first place.

The spectrum of digital image quality, from cell phone cameras to MFDBs, is now officially vast. 

Meanwhile, EXPEED 3 is officially here.  If the D4/D400/D800 have two of those, that will be 1200MP/sec theoretical throughput, and that's enough to do some interesting work in real-time.  If it could process 40MP times 30 FPS, or 20MP times 60 FPS, it might be possible to create video frames from downsampling in real-time, instead of from decimation.  A rapid-readout sensor would make all the difference here.  Any such camera Canon/Nikon would close out the 5DII video generation in an instant and begin a new one. 

I also think the idea of motion snapshot will find its way into professional cameras as the equivalent of a recording engineer's "pre-roll".  The idea of pre-roll on a digital audio recorder is that the "tape" is always running, so when you hit the record button, the recorder already has several seconds of material recorded, just in case you missed the cue.  I would not mind if the camera -- silently -- took 30 portrait frames at full resolution, starting when I half-pressed the shutter release, and let me review them quickly before saving.  [The motion snapshot also reminds me of something that SNL has been doing recently when going to and from commercial, and it's a cool effect.]
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 03:38:10 AM »
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I think so too.  Yet, I don't see many mothers looking to spend $649 or $899 to do this.  Even very capable HD video cameras which are more appealing to this genre go for half the price.  I can't help but feel, if this is their main target, that they missed in a huge way.

Now.. put that focusing technology in a $300 Coolpix.. and they'd have a winner.  And eventually they probably will.  But banking on the 'dissatisfied' segment of the $200-$300 PNS market to all of a sudden be willing to plunk down $700-$900 because of a promise of better focused images?  Not a chance.

I guess that the question is how much the average memories sensitive mother did spend over the past 3 years in compacts that ended up frustrating them. Buy 2 and you are in the price range.

Most people don't look at things this way, but buying the right equipment is often a way to save money.

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 04:44:06 AM »
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Another thing that is striking with the J1/V1 is IMHO what I see as a strong iPhone influence. Ungortunately, as Thom pointed out, it is only partial.

There are 3 things remarkable about the iPhone:
- unless you use Camera+, there are zero settings yet pictures come out mostly Ok. This approach will have a tremendous impact on what we come to see as a good camera experience. The 1 series is trying to replicate this settingless-yet-works experience at the level of the UI,
- connectivity. I would be surprised if a 3g or wifi accesory were proposed by Nikon soon to enable iPhone like connectivity to the 1 series,
- open platform with embedded apps to enhance images before uploading. The 1 series come short here for now.

Besides I am amazed by the violence of the negative reactions on DPreview. How can prople get that excited about a camera they have not even touched or seen? :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 06:10:39 AM »
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It's always a disappointment when a camera manufacturer starts a new system and from a photographer's point of view gets so many things utterly wrong. People who know a bit about cameras don't really have to see this in flesh to understand about all its limitations.

I, for myself, really can't understand how anyone who is really serious about photography should ever consider this. Exept the (truly remarkable!) 60fps feature is needed for some very special circumstances, or the high crop factor in combination with the interchangeable lens system (e.g. good for birdwatching, maybe surveillance as well). Apart from that, it's a Nikon-branded gadget with funky styling that comes in lots of colors if you like it, go for it, sure.

But anyone else... why bother with this? It's just sad that Nikon, as one of the biggest camera brands ever, have now definitely chosen to not offer demanding photographers an innovative mirrorless solution. There's of course nothing inherently wrong with ignoring serious photographers regarding possible future camera systems. Sure it's any company's free right.

Thomas
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 07:15:49 AM »
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I don't know why people insist on comparing this with large sensor cameras. If you compare it to Pany LX-5 or Oly OZ-1 instead, there is some appeal. It's not far off the price of those "high-end" p&s digicams if you include the price of the optional EVF finder, you get a much bigger sensor, and if you want some day, you can fit other lenses onto it. Lots of people are buying those high-end digicams, so now someone is offering a super-digicam upgrade/alternate for them. Of course, the system may turn out not to be commercially successful, but I don't see it as a failed attempt to compete with micro-4/3 or NEX.
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 07:48:32 AM »
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I don't know why people insist on comparing this with large sensor cameras. If you compare it to Pany LX-5 or Oly OZ-1 instead, there is some appeal.

(1)
It's got the size and weight of a "large sensor" system camera (The bigger model with the built-in viewfinder weighs 3 gramms more than the NEX-7 which in addition also has a built-in flash.)

(2)
The lenses have just as well the size of a "large sensor" system camera. Yes there are other system's zoom lenses out there that are bigger, but also others that are the same size or even smaller, e.g. the 10-100 for the Nikon has exactly the same size and weight as the APS-C 18-200 for Sony NEX. The new 14-42 for MFT is much smaller than the 10-30 for this Nikon.

(3)
The Nikon comes with the same limitations as most "large sensor" system cameras (they make two different models with either built-in flash or built-in viewfinder the same time....)

(4)
And last not least it comes with the same price as "large sensor" system cameras.

In contrast to that, I can't see the big similarity to a LX-5 or Canon S95 or other similar offerings which are really a different class in physical size.... truly pocketable, almost like a cell phone, and also substantially less expensive.

Another funny thing is that the Nikon, despite its super small sensor, comes with dull f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom lenses, which are standard for much bigger sensor sizes but really should not be produced for a sensor that small. Yes, most of the smaller all-in-one-cameras have much faster lenses than the Nikon. Another thing they just did not get right.

Thomas
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 08:15:41 AM »
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Perhaps we should take into account aspects such as image quality and user experience as key aspects of this product before casting a judgement on it?

Since when have cameras become nothing but a list of numbers on a spec sheet? I would expect the good people of LL to know better. Smiley

Anyway, the old principle still applies, don't like it, don't buy it. I personnaly need a compact camera to replace my dead G10 and S90, a camera that focuses well in dark places and that my wife will have to be able to use also without spending too much time reading the manual. Right now the specs of the J1/V1 appear closest to my needs. It is a bit expensive, but I am not sure why people here even mention price as a factor considering the price of other equipment already owned...

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 08:55:53 AM »
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What is it that makes the Nikon appeal to you more than, say, any MFT camera? Why would you want that Nikon more than a GF3 with a much smaller 14-42 "pancake" lens and an already much more proven system behind it? Why should that Panasonic, for example, make your wife need to read the manual and a Nikon should not? Why do you not simply replace the S90 with a S95 that does not come with the size penalty of the new Nikon and a much faster lens?

Everyone is free to buy what he or she wants. But everyone is also free to point on issues when a manufacturer makes a new product with a lot of questionable characteristics. It's not that the Nikon won't be able to take photos. It's rather that there is so much good competition out there already that it makes the Nikon just look a bit lame. But if you like it, why discuss any more. Go out and buy it! It's as simple as that!
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