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Author Topic: New "mirrorless" Nikon  (Read 18518 times)
deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2011, 09:04:27 AM »
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What is it that makes the Nikon appeal to you more than, say, any MFT camera? Why would you want that Nikon more than a GF3 with a much smaller 14-42 "pancake" lens and an already much more proven system behind it? Why should that Panasonic, for example, make your wife need to read the manual and a Nikon should not? Why do you not simply replace the S90 with a S95 that does not come with the size penalty of the new Nikon and a much faster lens?if you like it, why discuss any more. Go out and buy it! It's as simple as that!

try to shot erratically running (= not in one direction) child w/ GF3
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2011, 10:18:07 AM »
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I agree that this camera system is not aimed at us.  I don't even think that it's aimed at the US market.  I think this is more intended for the asian market, and especially the Japanese domestic market.  I guess I look at it as a kind of an upper-middle class snapshot camera. 

I'd agree with this as well.  Having spent over 23+ years in Asia you can't help but recognize photography is one of their few almost national hobbies.. like ham radio was in Japan in the 80's.. not sure what it's like now.  In Thailand the NEX-5 sold like hotcakes, it was new and stylish and from Sony.  Everyone with a benz or better SUV had to have one hanging around their neck.  The Fuji x100 still hasn't made it to the shelves, it's old and not nearly as stylish.  Same with Malaysia and Singapore.

But to ignore the US and European markets?  Risky.
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Peter_DL
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 11:16:52 AM »
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I personnaly need a compact camera to replace my ... G10 ...

+1
One key point might be the definition of "pocketability" (if this an ok English term).
Canon had a nice belt-bag for the G10. Any larger camera is not pocketable for my purposes.

What I really don’t understand is why we already had high quality, pocketable P&S FF film cameras more than 10 years ago. But hardly anything like this since "digital". For example, at the risk of sounding snobby, the Leica Minilux Zoom (Ti Bogner edition) sometimes still finds the way in my pocket for a day trip or so. Seems not every buyer of a small camera is a price buyer.

Peter

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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 12:34:25 PM »
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I thought Tom Hogan (http://bythom.com/) had some interesting comments about why the "1" might be useful/preferred under the paragraph heading "Don't Undersell...".
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Robert55
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 01:43:01 PM »
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Well, in post #15 you said it also means "... that Nikon, as one of the biggest camera brands ever, have now definitely chosen to not offer demanding photographers an innovative mirrorless solution."
This may have colored your perspective on the new Nikon. I would add "for now" to that statement. This new concept is so far from the capabilities of DX that it cannot really replace the larger format. Something close to say m4/3 could be made far more easily into a DX replacement, even if slightly inferior to it.

BTW: I kind of like the esthetics of te V1 (I also admit to liking the nex-es): clean lines, modern, no attempt to emulate  '70s rangefinder (PEN) or 90's über-slr [GH3] looks.
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Lonnie Utah
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2011, 02:08:01 PM »
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Some good points.  No, I haven't seen files yet, my Canon rep is much more aggressive and helpful than my Nikon rep.  I assume he'll get around some day.  And they could be very good, so my comment was more about how the s100 (a true pocket camera) is a pretty big improvement in many regards to the s95 (cmos not ccd, smart image stability, major improvements in high ISO, 8 fps burst rate, improved focusing, smart white balance ... can use two different white balances in a scene (foreground flash background tungsten), greater zoom range.

I can see that's where Nikons "target" is, but no one at a best buy or other type of store will really be able to sell this well.  A lot of those moms come to camera stores, where there are several other choices (such as sony NEX or a55/65).  I can't imagine a camera store pushing these when they can sell a Sony ... better margins, protected pricing so no price slashing etc. and proven technology.

Guess we'll see ... we'll probably bring a couple into the store so maybe after having one in hand I'll see things differently.

Wayne, I agree with you an all points. 

This is a camera that is aimed at the intermediate market, but with a price that is too high for that market ($1149 for the V1 and the 2 lens kit, $649 for the J1 and the 10-30mm zoom).  Personally, for $150 less, if one wanting to stay "brand loyal", I'll get the coolpic p7100.  Sure the sensor is smaller and it's a lower video resolution, but I get real pocketability, much better controls, a standard flash hotshoe, stereo sound (the 1 is mono  Huh) and an articulating screen.  Did mention it was $150 less?

The 5 variants of this thing make it a nightmare for brick and mortar retailers like yourself. You now have to keep shelf space for 5 versions of this camera. I can see situations where folks end up with a silver body and pink lens...
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John Camp
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2011, 02:27:14 PM »
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It'll take a while before all this shakes out, but one thing about the 1 system that surprised me was the size of the lenses -- it has the same drawback as the NEX, which is small body, large system. If you bought a D7000 instead of the NEX, you'd hardly notice the overall difference in size when you're carrying the bag onto the airplane, or humping it up the mountain...and you'd get the D7000 viewfinder. The 1 system components simply aren't small enough. IMHO, about the only reason to buy an EVF is for size, but that has to include the lenses.

There's a similar discussion going on at The Online Photographer, where I found this link, which is worth thinking about, in the overall context of EVF systems: http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lense.html

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2011, 05:00:19 PM »
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Why would you want that Nikon more than a GF3 with a much smaller 14-42 "pancake" lens and an already much more proven system behind it? Why should that Panasonic, for example, make your wife need to read the manual and a Nikon should not? Why do you not simply replace the S90 with a S95 that does not come with the size penalty of the new Nikon and a much faster lens?

What I find more appealing with the Nikon based on the partial information available today:
- the long term potential for a more compact system, I agree that it is only partially realized today,
- the promise of an AF system faster than that of the D3s, which is needed if you want to take sharp images of young children, which would be the main usage of this camera (I use my D3x when I am on a photographic mission),
- sensor specs that make me feel that we might have best in class high iso image quality (remember the D3s),
- the possibility to use my large collection of Nikon lenses,
- a highly simplified interface similar in essence to an iPhone experience.

AF speed alone is a no go with all the alternatives on the market today for my target applications. I liked the S90 until it died at young age, but don't even think of using it for moving subjects.

Cheers,
Bernard
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K.C.
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2011, 09:11:02 PM »
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Since when have cameras become nothing but a list of numbers on a spec sheet? Smiley

Since the advent of digital and forms like this one. At least in the minds of many.

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rethmeier
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2011, 02:22:34 AM »
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Well,
it looks promising to me.
However I got to have a peek trough that viewfinder first,
Cheers,
W
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2011, 04:44:28 AM »
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Warehouse Express (clicky) are advertising the J1 & V1 with a bundle worth £150, possibly as recognition that it's over-priced. At the moment the deal is for so-called 'pre-orders', which is the same as ordering or reserving one, but with 'pre' added. Leaving aside the mangling of the English language, it's a pretty crappy deal - who wants a Nikon t-shirt, gorrilapod & Nikon training voucher etc? The only positive is the memory card. But I think it's indication that the price will fall by at least this amount, if not more.
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Lonnie Utah
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2011, 09:38:31 PM »
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- sensor specs that make me feel that we might have best in class high iso image quality (remember the D3s),

Yeah, keep dreaming with that one.   Check out this Link  It's in French, but they tested the V1 vs the Nikon P7100, Olympus E-P3, Panasonic G3 and the Sony NEX-5N.  Look at the images full sized.  To my eyes, it looks like the NEX has at least a two stop advantage over the V1.  
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2011, 11:00:08 PM »
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Yeah, keep dreaming with that one.   Check out this Link  It's in French, but they tested the V1 vs the Nikon P7100, Olympus E-P3, Panasonic G3 and the Sony NEX-5N.  Look at the images full sized.  To my eyes, it looks like the NEX has at least a two stop advantage over the V1.  

There is no question that the Nex will be much better. They don't belong to the same class. The only thing they have in common is the lack of mirror.

On the other hand the samples I have seen at 3200 Iso showed very little gao btwn J1 and GF3.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2011, 12:47:28 AM »
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There is no question that the Nex will be much better. They don't belong to the same class. The only thing they have in common is the lack of mirror.

On the other hand the samples I have seen at 3200 Iso showed very little gao btwn J1 and GF3.

Cheers,
Bernard
Same approximate size/weight, same approximate cost, no mirror, new lens mount so new lenses, approx same rear LCD, comes in different designer colors, lots of features are the same..  I think they're remarkably similar.  What we should be looking for isn't how much the same they are, but where there is a significant difference which offsets the difference in image quality.  Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps mode?
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LKaven
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2011, 02:07:32 AM »
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I'd agree with this as well.  Having spent over 23+ years in Asia you can't help but recognize photography is one of their few almost national hobbies.. like ham radio was in Japan in the 80's.. not sure what it's like now.  In Thailand the NEX-5 sold like hotcakes, it was new and stylish and from Sony.  Everyone with a benz or better SUV had to have one hanging around their neck.  The Fuji x100 still hasn't made it to the shelves, it's old and not nearly as stylish.  Same with Malaysia and Singapore.

But to ignore the US and European markets?  Risky.
Nikon's promo video for the J1 depicts upscale Asian women on their way to various social functions...birthday parties, engagements, etc.  They use the camera's specialty features in order to really deliver the best pictures.  They show the pictures to their friends and their friends are pleased to no end.  This is a well-focused message with a clear target.  The V1 seems to be targeted more at men, and promos I've seen emphasize control, power, technology.

[Did anyone in marketing wonder about the combined meaning of the letters VJ in US-Japanese history.]
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2011, 02:33:33 AM »
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Hi there is another country in Asia, sometimes called PCR also known as China...

Best regards
Erik

Nikon's promo video for the J1 depicts upscale Asian women on their way to various social functions...birthday parties, engagements, etc.  They use the camera's specialty features in order to really deliver the best pictures.  They show the pictures to their friends and their friends are pleased to no end.  This is a well-focused message with a clear target.  The V1 seems to be targeted more at men, and promos I've seen emphasize control, power, technology.

[Did anyone in marketing wonder about the combined meaning of the letters VJ in US-Japanese history.]
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2011, 03:08:33 AM »
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Nikon's promo video for the J1 depicts upscale Asian women on their way to various social functions...birthday parties, engagements, etc.  They use the camera's specialty features in order to really deliver the best pictures.  They show the pictures to their friends and their friends are pleased to no end.  This is a well-focused message with a clear target.  The V1 seems to be targeted more at men, and promos I've seen emphasize control, power, technology.

[Did anyone in marketing wonder about the combined meaning of the letters VJ in US-Japanese history.]
I haven't seen them, but it sounds exactly how they promote this type of product.

When you're in a country with "classes" so well defined, you'll often see very targeted advertising.  Example:  A very small portion of Thailand's citizens can afford to own a car, less drive the car they own, and even less afford the Expressway that charges more for a single toll than most Thai's spend on dinner.  The Expressway is elevated, about 20-50 meters.  As you drive the Expressway there are big giant billboards planted in the ground, but rising to the Expressway level, one after the other, promoting mostly luxury goods (fancy condo's, cars, purses, cosmetics, high end drink, etc).  From the ground you can't see them, but from the Expressway it's like watching television.

When they released the NEX-3/NEX-5.. they took pre-orders and your contact information with the order.. and then called and invited us to a catered event in the Siam Paragon (an uber high end mall with Ferrari dealer store (a regular mall store stuffed with Ferrari's), Porsche, Louis Vitton, Rolex, etc, etc) with lots of bling and free stuff for showing up.  Pretty young things handed out the cameras, helped attach straps, and then modeled so you could test it out.  They turned the release into a fun social event and their target was clear.  Fuji did something similar for the F200exr, Canon had a big one for the 5d Mark II..  buying a new camera at it's release gets you a fun time..
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2011, 03:11:43 AM »
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Same approximate size/weight, same approximate cost, no mirror, new lens mount so new lenses, approx same rear LCD, comes in different designer colors, lots of features are the same..  I think they're remarkably similar.  What we should be looking for isn't how much the same they are, but where there is a significant difference which offsets the difference in image quality.  Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps mode?

They both are cameras yes, but they target different people for different applications.

If you feel there has to be a better camera, a winner, let's agree that the Sony wins and move on. Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2011, 03:50:14 AM »
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They both are cameras yes, but they target different people for different applications.

If you feel there has to be a better camera, a winner, let's agree that the Sony wins and move on. Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not yet sure about the NEX-7, but the NEX-3/NEX-5 targeted the same customer base in Asia.  Who the Nikon is targeting in the west remains a mystery.

Why do you feel there must be a "better camera?"  To simplify to such an extent stifles discussion.

There are a few ways to look at this.  We can discuss the main marketing target base (of the Nikons) which I'll agree with others is Asia, with the west being secondary.  The market in the USA is so large, even a relatively small percentage of the market means significant numbers sold. 

Or we can look at if/how the Nikon's appeal to forum members.  I think this is of a higher interest.  If we do this, it's natural to compare to the competition.  I think most would agree the Sony NEX series is a close if not the closest competition.  The cameras are remarkably similar, but obviously different in some respects.  The similarities should be obvious if our eyes aren't closed, but the differences not so much.  The knowledge to be gained by discussing the differences, I think, is of the most immediate value. 

So I'll ask you (or anyone else) again, with so much being similar (size, weight, price, rear LCD, color choices, new lens mount/lenses, no mirror, etc, etc), what do you think the most significant differences are with the Nikon, that would sway you from the Sony with it's obvious sensor/image IQ advantages?  To those in the forum I'd guess we care an awful lot about image quality/noise/sensor.. so I'm interested in what the Nikon has to offer that would motivate you to accept less in this area?  I gave two examples immediately apparent to me.  Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps at full rez.

I've noticed a tendency for some to insist on very focused threads when the subject has no clear focal point.  Seems silly if not obnoxious.  It's a discussion forum, we shouldn't sacrifice discussion for focus unless it serves a specific purpose of value.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2011, 04:14:15 AM »
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I'm not yet sure about the NEX-7, but the NEX-3/NEX-5 targeted the same customer base in Asia.  Who the Nikon is targeting in the west remains a mystery.

Why do you feel there must be a "better camera?"  To simplify to such an extent stifles discussion.

Hi Steve,

I don't, that was the point I was trying to make, but some folks around seem motivated in trying to convince me that the Sony is the better camera. Smiley

There are a few ways to look at this.  We can discuss the main marketing target base (of the Nikons) which I'll agree with others is Asia, with the west being secondary.  The market in the USA is so large, even a relatively small percentage of the market means significant numbers sold. 

Or we can look at if/how the Nikon's appeal to forum members.  I think this is of a higher interest.  If we do this, it's natural to compare to the competition.  I think most would agree the Sony NEX series is a close if not the closest competition.  The cameras are remarkably similar, but obviously different in some respects.  The similarities should be obvious if our eyes aren't closed, but the differences not so much.  The knowledge to be gained by discussing the differences, I think, is of the most immediate value. 

So I'll ask you (or anyone else) again, with so much being similar (size, weight, price, rear LCD, color choices, new lens mount/lenses, no mirror, etc, etc), what do you think the most significant differences are with the Nikon, that would sway you from the Sony with it's obvious sensor/image IQ advantages?  To those in the forum I'd guess we care an awful lot about image quality/noise/sensor.. so I'm interested in what the Nikon has to offer that would motivate you to accept less in this area?  I gave two examples immediately apparent to me.  Focus speed (reported) and the 60fps at full rez.

As mentioned before, this is the camera I would use when I don't intend to do "serious" photography, I use the D3x otherwise either by itself or with a robust pano kit when I need serious resolution.

In this context, here is the value I see with the Nikon 1 series:
- the zoom lenses are smaller (18mm shorter for basic lens kit, 47mm shorter for tele zoom) and the system has the potential be become even smaller in the future,
- the AF seems much faster indeed,
- I'll be able to use my existing set of Nikon lenses if the need arises.

Cheers,
Bernard
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