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Author Topic: Help needed, please  (Read 4638 times)
Elena
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« on: October 18, 2011, 11:19:52 AM »
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hello,
we bought Epson 9800 a few years ago with a hope to print reproductions of my painting. My husband even took course how to make good photos for this purpose( here on the Luminous Landscape). We spent so much money on everything, equipment, courses, lessons,..but we never succeeded in printing. Here is the problem. When we print on Epson, it gives us light grey tint on everything. A few years ago we ( after playing with icc profiles) found one profile which had the lightest grey tint and we did some prints. But we never got rid of the tint completely.
I would like to ask for the basic information, what profile should be the photo assinged to, and what to pay attention when setting the printer.
thank you very much,
Elena.
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louoates
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 12:42:24 PM »
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Sorry you're having so much trouble with your 9800. I've used my 9800 for many years making prints for artists with zero problems. I suspect many reasons why you can be having those problems--as many others can who read what you described. But you need to provide much more information to get some focused advice.

It would really help for whomever is doing the printing to describe each step taken, from the color-space designated in the camera to all the Photoshop procedures, the Photoshop preferences that are set, and the paper brand, surface, and the printing profile you select before sending the print job to the 9800. I'm assuming that you are using the Epson paper profiles that come with CS5, if that's the version you are using. My first thought is that you're missing one or two critical steps that should be easily corrected.
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Stephen G
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 01:34:31 PM »
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I agree with louoates - you need to describe each step you take very clearly for anyone to help you properly.

guess/speculation:
'light grey tint" makes me think that you are printing with Photo black ink on matte paper/canvas, which would need Matte black ink.
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Elena
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 06:33:47 PM »
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thank you both,
i do print with matte black ink. i print on presentation paper matte( former photo quality ink jet paper)
here are my steps: ( i was following this instructions-http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps12_colour/ps12_1.htm)
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Elena
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 06:37:36 PM »
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i also wanted to add in the last step the profile is Adobe RGB, it's because i tryied the all others and they are worse (more grey) than this one
i also wanted to tell that before epson 9800 we had HPZ3100, and we printed on it the same files and prints were good... so, i don't think its about the files, more about how i send them to the printer...
thank you
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Schewe
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 08:21:57 PM »
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i also wanted to add in the last step the profile is Adobe RGB, it's because i tryied the all others and they are worse (more grey) than this one
i also wanted to tell that before epson 9800 we had HPZ3100, and we printed on it the same files and prints were good... so, i don't think its about the files, more about how i send them to the printer...
thank you

Seriously, your PS Color Settings are seriously wacked–it's a sin to try to turn off RGB color management policies (cause you really can't), it's wrong to assign a profile as you are doing, Then, why are you converting from a screwed up color space (sRGB) to Adobe RGB and then why the hell would you try to have Photoshop manage color and use Adobe RGB as the printer profile?

Sorry to say that your settings and color profiles are totally FUBAR...seriously screwed up...to screwed up that, really, it would take much longer than I have to correct you about just about everything. Blatant plug–you guys seriously need a bootstrap from where you are to where you need to be and the best bet is to get the LuLa Color Management section of the Camera to Print & Scree video tutorial–hell, you should get the whole thing.

Seriously if you have been flailing about for a while, you need to buckle up and strap down and get your shyte together...otherwise you are ruining perfectly good paper to no good end.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 08:50:28 PM »
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And Jeff is putting it delicately. Roll Eyes

Just some consolation, Elena, you're not the only one that's poured money down a hole to still wind up with the problems you're facing.

I consulted with a gallery owner attempting to do the same thing as you where he coincidentally ended up buying the HPZ3100 with a built in calibration spectro. He'ld already sunk over $20K before I told him where all the folks he paid to make it work steered him wrong, mainly a business machine outfit that had their hands out only they were not helping hands. They wanted to charge the poor guy $200 a session over the phone color management advice. Hell, I had to admit to him I was in over my head with all the gear he invested in including an unknown brand wide format scanner for scanning canvas paintings. Its software was indecipherable and he had no manual to it.

I can tell you what you're attempting is doable as long as you follow Jeff's video tutorial to the letter with regards to the screenshots you posted.

 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:37:20 AM by tlooknbill » Logged
Elena
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 07:26:36 AM »
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thank you tlooknbill

i think HP people are VERY modest with their fee for color session, i am not joking. My husband had a private lesson here on L.L, so  i know.
thank you for promoting your video here Jeff
but i don't believe your video would solve my problem. As i said, my husband was doing printing, he had learned everything,he got all the softwares he needed and started. and prints were not good. He already went throuht everything a few years ago. The only solution was Qimage. He gave up on Photoshop. You might think that if i will buy your Lula video everything will change... not so fast... we were there already...
can anybody give me basic recipe to print a small square image i will create in PHotoshop, please
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louoates
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 09:00:03 AM »
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Elena, I'm afraid that attitude won't help you. If you've given up on Photoshop and think that what you and your husband went through years ago invalidated our comments here then there's not much hope you'll get through this. Maybe someone here will spend a lot of time with a basic recipe but I doubt that would make much of a difference. Good luck.
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Schewe
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 09:01:24 AM »
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thank you for promoting your video here Jeff

Uh huh...that ain't what I was doing....what I was doing was trying to explain that your print process is so screwed up in terms of settings that you need to go back to ground zero and relearn the correct process. Which is a bit past a "basic recipe to print", ya know?
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jbrembat
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 11:13:16 AM »
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Elena,
 you have to study the color management.  Don't try to follow instructions if you don't know the meaning.

Jacopo
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elolaugesen
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 11:24:39 AM »
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This sounds very much like the problem that I and many others had...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=52185.msg430074;topicseen#msg430074

there are many other threads on this topic.

my problem disappeared when i started using v2.0 printer profiles..    instead of 2.4  using OSX 10.6.8   I test it every time I get an upgrade it is still there.....   but I dont have any problems at all any more...

I
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FranciscoDisilvestro
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 11:53:02 AM »
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This has nothing to do with the issues of version 4 profiles with OS X.

Just take a look at the screen shots of the Color Management Configuration, it is all wrong.

 I agree with the suggestion to learn Color Management before anything else.
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 11:55:17 AM »
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i think HP people are VERY modest with their fee for color session, i am not joking. My husband had a private lesson here on L.L, so  i know.
thank you for promoting your video here Jeff
but i don't believe your video would solve my problem. As i said, my husband was doing printing, he had learned everything,he got all the softwares he needed and started. and prints were not good. He already went throuht everything a few years ago. The only solution was Qimage. He gave up on Photoshop. You might think that if i will buy your Lula video everything will change... not so fast... we were there already...
can anybody give me basic recipe to print a small square image i will create in PHotoshop, please

Elena,

I will be honest with you, no sarcasm or anything like that.
Read what you stated above. If you think that your husband had really "learned everything", why are you asking for advice? Because of the crappy prints he made, right? So... if the problem is not on his side, it has to be a malfunction on the printer, right? If you think that is a possibility, call for a technician and you should be fine.
The problem is that what you described and the screenshots you provided proves otherwise, it clearly displays a completely messed-up workflow with a ton of mistakes over pile of misunderstandings. If the person conducting that workflow studied, attended to a live session training and even so did that, I would say he did not learn a thing, not even the basics (that are not so hard to get, by the way).
With that in mind and honestly trying to help you, I would say that nothing stated here or anywhere will help you as, most likely, it won´t be understood either. No offence, seriously. People are different and someone can be a genius on something and incompetent on something else. No shame on that.
My advice is that you find someone that could go to your place and set things up for you both, creating pressets for your usual needs that you will only load/apply and print.

As a commercial and editorial photographer I was "forced" into the printing industry by the nature of my work and specialized in colour management for photography. I am a relatively seasoned printer, noted as one of the best in my country and even so I still learn a lot from Michael´s and Jeff´s videos. I can tell you for sure that Jeff wasn´t trying to push you a sale and that those videos are, in fact, invaluable to anyone.

Good luck and don´t give up.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 11:57:43 AM by geraldogarcia » Logged
bjanes
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 12:52:45 PM »
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thank you for promoting your video here Jeff but i don't believe your video would solve my problem. As i said, my husband was doing printing, he had learned everything,he got all the softwares he needed and started. and prints were not good. He already went throuht everything a few years ago. The only solution was Qimage. He gave up on Photoshop. You might think that if i will buy your Lula video everything will change... not so fast... we were there already...
can anybody give me basic recipe to print a small square image i will create in PHotoshop, please

Elena,

This attitude is not likely to get you the help you need. You state that your husband has learned everything, but yet the workflow you present shows a complete lack of understanding of the principles of color management. The basics are not that complicated and are clearly outlined in Jeff's color management tutorial.

1. Image acquisition. You do not mention how you obtain images of your artwork, but the usual methods are scanning or photographing with a digital camera. You have to have a proper profile for your input device, and the working space should probably be ProPhotoRGB, 16 bpc.

2. Editing. If you edit and softproof, you have to have an accurate monitor profile. Capture and output sharpening can be done at this stage.

3. Printing. You could use Photoshop or Lightroom. With Photoshop here are the key settings for an Epson 2200 printer.

Perhaps you could learn something from Jeff's tutorial.

Regards,

Bill

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 01:24:09 PM »
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Hi,

Something that is absolutely wrong is setting printer profile to Adobe RGB, printer profile must be a profile specific for Printer/Ink/Paper.

Best regards
Erik
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smilem
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 01:57:58 PM »
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Something that is absolutely wrong is setting printer profile to Adobe RGB, printer profile must be a profile specific for Printer/Ink/Paper.

Not necessarily if you are using a RIP and Photoshop SC5 where you can't turn off color management, the RIP applies the correct printer profile. I doubt this is the case, but using such printer without RIP is the first mistake to achieving good fine art prints.
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elolaugesen
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 02:55:04 PM »
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Yes..   I got it wrong..   re read it all it certainly does not look like my old V2.4 problem......  Jumped the gun without reading the whole thread

 good luck elo
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smilem
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 05:56:11 PM »
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Yes..   I got it wrong..   re read it all it certainly does not look like my old V2.4 problem......  Jumped the gun without reading the whole thread

 good luck elo

I was always skeptical about v4 profiles, come on what happened to v3 then? Never heard of v3.
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Paz
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 09:38:08 PM »
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Elena,

Sorry to hear about your printing problems.  I too am a painter and I've had prints made on an Epson 9800.  Original watercolors with prints on 'watercolor paper' and the prints were so close to the original it was exceedingly difficult to tell which was the print and which was the original painting.  So, you have a fine printer, (in fact, the thoughts of actually owning one tend to make me drool!), but as others have said, your settings are way off.

You say you're following Ian's directions, but sorry, you're not.  Ian shows quite a few images that are perhaps default settings, not desired settings, then, if you read carefully, he tells you how to change them, perhaps one way in one situation, or a different way in a different situation.

For example, this is the setting Ian uses:



Here is yours:



Note that for 'Working RGB' Ian is using "Pro Photo RGB."  Pro Photo is a very large color space.  You have chosen sRGB, a very small color space.  That single difference is huge.

Also, as for turning OFF RGB.  Note that while Ian does show a pic of it off, he goes on to say it's verrrrrry bad policy, as Jeff also says.

You can't just look at the pictures on Ian's site.  You have to read the text, then choose your settings.

You've said you have chosen Adobe 1998 as your printer's color space.  This setting is there to tell your computer/printer communication what specific and particular printer/PAPER combination you are using.  That is, the printer's paper profile.  Glossy, matte, pearl, whatever.  The amount of ink the printer sprays on the paper will differ radically depending on how absorbent (or not) the paper is.

Ian's printer profile setting is where he is telling his computer/printer that he is using a Premium Gloss paper, a specific Epson paper profile, with an Epson printer.



There is no 'Adobe RGB' Epson paper.  Adobe RGB is a color space profile, perhaps a monitor profile, but it is not a paper profile.

Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't notice how you are getting the images of your paintings.  Are you photographing them?  If so, I recommend you set your camera's color space to the largest you can, so your camera can capture more colors, giving you more digital information to work with.  My camera's largest color space happens to be Adobe RGB.

I use Adobe RGB as my RGB working space in Photoshop, but since I've recently bought a wide color gamut monitor, which shows a wider color space than even NTSC, (a very wide color space), I may switch to Pro Photo space for my working space.  I'd encourage you to set your camera and your working space to the largest color space you can.

If you are scanning your paintings, it would be a great help if your scanner is also profiled.  That is, your scanner's specific shade of red needs to be able to be communicated to your monitor, so the monitor can show it, and to your printer, so your printer can print it. There are monitor, camera, scanner, printer paper colorimeters/and/or spectrophotometers out there.  Which one you need depends on your particular combination of equipment.

So, I'd advise you to read, read, read Ian's Color Management article very carefully and follow his actual lead as closely as possible.  (You might wish to use Perceptual for black, instead of Relative, though.  Try both to see which works best for you.  It could vary depending on your specific equipment.)

Also, for what it's worth, I agree with the others, Jeff isn't trying to take advantage of you by suggesting you watch his video.  He said he didn't have time (or patience maybe?) to spell things out,  I'm sure he was sincere.  Jeff, Ian, Andrew Rodney, Chris Murphy, Fred Bunting... and others, I'm sure, are the Color Management Gods (Bruce Fraser, now with the Gods) and they do know what they're talking about, but that doesn't mean it is always easy for us mere mortals to follow.

Good luck with your printer!

Paz

 


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