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Author Topic: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik  (Read 17862 times)
PetterStahre
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« on: October 28, 2011, 05:14:16 AM »
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Have you guys seen this photo&thread:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65362-Peter-Lik...

Shot with RED Epic, stitched, 800 ISO, no anti-noise filter, no HDRx-functionality applied, just graded.

To my eyes ... STUNNING!

What do you think? Yes, lowres, but still ... there is some serious image quality in that "camcorder" Smiley
Look at the tonal range.

They even compared it to a Phase One 80 MP back with Mamiya lenses, read for yourself what they thought. (Biased from REDs point of view, yes, but again ... what an image!)

Quote of the day from Jim Jannard (RED founder): "Peter's quote on EPIC is X-rated.".

Food for thoughts.


// Petter
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fredjeang
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 05:53:42 AM »
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Stunning...

Red is the future IMO.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 07:54:18 AM »
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...just graded...

What does that mean in this context?
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Slobodan

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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 08:13:47 AM »
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What does that mean in this context?

The Epic has a HDR capability, somewhat similar to what we are used in stills when we combine 3 or more images to make an HDR output. Well, the Epic is capable of that, doubling the recorded footage at a different shutter speed. On the paper, it means that the 13-14 ish points DR is boosted dramatically. (like a turbo in a car engine).

So the image you see is not using this function and therefore representative of the based DR this camera is capable of. They just did a color correction but not alterated the dr, nor noise etc... In short, this is almost a picture right-out-the-box.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 08:17:23 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 08:51:14 AM »
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Thanks Fred, I got the HDR part (or non-HDR). I was primarily interested in the word "graded" though.
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Slobodan

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torger
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 09:04:51 AM »
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I guess graded means image processing to get the "Peter Lik look", increasing saturation, doing some tone mapping. It is indeed a stunning picture, but you cannot really judge the EPIC's performance from that reduced size and processed picture. "No noise reduction" it says, but reducing the size of a picture will exactly do that, reduce noise since it is averaged into the remaining pixels.

As far as I understand from reading in the referred thread it is shoot with a model having a 30x15mm sensor with 5120x2700 resolution, stitched from a number of horizontal shots (probably three with large overlaps to be able to stitch without getting seams where stuff moves). The final image is probably 7800x2700 pixels. An IQ180 can do that in one shot with appropriate focal length, but would require longer shutter speed since IQ180 is not really a high ISO tool.

The suggested 10 feet print size would yield 65 ppi. Ok for a large viewing distance I guess :-).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 09:34:19 AM by torger » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 09:39:38 AM »
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From a post in the provided link (bold an italics mine) : "...so this shot is stitched and graded just like a movie would be."

Since i have zero experience with movies, and thus have no idea what "grading" does there, I guess I am trying to figure out what "grading" does for a still shot.
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Slobodan

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fredjeang
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 09:59:14 AM »
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From a post in the provided link (bold an italics mine) : "...so this shot is stitched and graded just like a movie would be."

Since i have zero experience with movies, and thus have no idea what "grading" does there, I guess I am trying to figure out what "grading" does for a still shot.

Slododan: grading = color correction = correction de couleur  just different ways to express a same idea.

a photographer "color correct", a videographer "color grade" or grade.

So "just graded", it means that they have done a color correction to bring to life this image but nothing more.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 10:06:06 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Mr. Rib
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 10:05:26 AM »
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Fred,

I posted this question on Chris Barrett's thread regarding dynamic range but my question hasn't been noticed, maybe you'll know- how does the HDR Epic operate? I mean.. how can you capture the same frame with two different speeds simultaneously (it's motion so I assume it has to be done in exact same moment). It's kind of, well, impossible? Smiley Or does an HDR frame of the EPIC simply consists of a two neighbouring on time axis frames ?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 10:12:13 AM »
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Fred,

I posted this question on Chris Barrett's thread regarding dynamic range but my question hasn't been noticed, maybe you'll know- how does the HDR Epic operate? I mean.. how can you capture the same frame with two different speeds simultaneously (it's motion so I assume it has to be done in exact same moment). It's kind of, well, impossible? Smiley Or does an HDR frame of the EPIC simply consists of a two neighbouring on time axis frames ?

My understanding is that it automatically duplicates, so you end with 2 versions of the same footage with a different exposure and you combine them in post. The Arri Alexa does that directly in-camera with no merging needed. The Epic does both HDR in camera (irreversible), but when it comes to HDRx it is more drastic but in post. So you have the megabytes-gigabytes doubled.

Red claims 18 stops!

But for this image, they used a function not yet (but next week !!) available in RedCine X called: Alchemy, wich is supposed to be a sex bomb. We'll know more next week. They go at the speed of light, this is #4 of RCX in very short time.

The Epic is the most exciting device in 20 years of digital, IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 10:21:38 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Mr. Rib
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2011, 10:20:48 AM »
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My understanding was the same- that it's just a software thing, merging for instance -1N, N +1N frames from exactly the same exposure but implemented to be done in real time rather than in post pro... but to be honest I don't understand what's the benefit- you can do it in post pro with much better control of HDR settings.
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ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 10:25:51 AM »
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Actually the deal with Epic HDRx is as follows...  when the option is enabled, the camera shoots two simultaneous data streams (two video tracks), one at your normal intended exposure and another at a higher shutter speed (operator selectable between 1 - 6 stops of hilight protection).  These two tracks are then blended later in software (with many options available) to increase dynamic range.  In something like DeVinci Resolve you can combine them using a luminance mask, which is very close to my current Stills HDR process.

The image mentioned by the OP is claimed to use no HDR.  The Epic does have substantial base dynamic range and their software allows you to pull more detail out of the files than Capture 1 Pro does, actually.  Jannard does say that the image was produced using Lik's standard workflow techniques.  That big secret is pretty obvious to me....

Shoot a late afternoon shot.
Shoot a night shot.
Drop the night shot on top of the afternoon shot with a blend mode of "lighten".
I'm sure I'm oversimplifying, but it's that process that yields the surreal feel of this image.  Otherwise you would never have such intensity in the man made electric light fixtures at the time of day that the sky was shot.

My own personal gut response to this image is "yeah, whatever."
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 10:28:46 AM by CBarrett » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 10:26:35 AM »
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My understanding was the same- that it's just a software thing, merging for instance -1N, N +1N frames from exactly the same exposure but implemented to be done in real time rather than in post pro... but to be honest I don't understand what's the benefit- you can do it in post pro with much better control of HDR settings.

Well, take the problem from a still point of view. We can make a single raw of one image and create 2 diff versions from our raw dev and then merge into hdr. But it is not really the same as if you have actually shooted 3 real different pictures.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 10:30:17 AM »
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Sorry, all I see here is a cheap HDR look that doesn't seem particularly hard to achieve with just about any recent sensor.

But why on earth would anyone want to achieve that look?

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
fredjeang
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 10:30:57 AM »
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Actually the deal with HDRx is as follows...  when the option is enabled, the camera shoots two simultaneous data streams (two video tracks), one at your normal intended exposure and another at a higher shutter speed (operator selectable between 1 - 6 stops of hilight protection).  These two tracks are then blended later in software (with many options available) to increase dynamic range.  In something like DeVinci Resolve you can combine them using a luminance mask, which is very close to my current Stills HDR process.

The image mentioned by the OP is claimed to use no HDR.  The Epic does have substantial base dynamic range and their software allows you to pull more detail out of the files than Capture 1 Pro does, actually.  Jannard does say that the image was produced using Lik's standard workflow techniques.  That big secret is pretty obvious to me....

Shoot a late afternoon shot.
Shoot a night shot.
Drop the night shot on top of the afternoon shot with a blend mode of "lighten".
I'm sure I'm oversimplifying, but it's that process that yields the surreal feel of this image.  Otherwise you would never have such intensity in the man made electric light fixtures at the time of day that the sky was shot.
My own personal gut response to this image is "yeah, whatever."

Are you sure if this is actually not the kitsch real scenery of Las Vegas ? Roll Eyes

I checked today in RCX if I missed the Alchemy function and no, it's not there yet in the #4...but next week we'll know finally what this magic tool is.

ps: you could combine them with a luminance mask in Edius, Nuke and Avid too.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 10:33:27 AM by fredjeang » Logged
ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 10:36:08 AM »
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Jim did say that "Alchemy" was used to produce this image.  As for my thoughts on the process... look at the top of the Bellagio... how bright it is.  Look at the parking lot lights.  Hell, those lights wouldn't even be on, car headlights would never appear so bright while the sky is still so bright.  That sky had to have been shot about a half hour before dusk.
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feppe
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 10:37:56 AM »
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Actually the deal with Epic HDRx is as follows...  when the option is enabled, the camera shoots two simultaneous data streams (two video tracks), one at your normal intended exposure and another at a higher shutter speed (operator selectable between 1 - 6 stops of hilight protection).  These two tracks are then blended later in software (with many options available) to increase dynamic range.  In something like DeVinci Resolve you can combine them using a luminance mask, which is very close to my current Stills HDR process.

Holy...

And why exactly does the video world have this but we don't have it with stills, except some compacts? We all knew that Canon and Nikon aren't doing anything but incremental updates. Do we really need RED (and perhaps Ricoh and Fuji and Sony and Panasonic) to put some (more) fire under them before they start innovating?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 11:10:16 AM »
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Jim did say that "Alchemy" was used to produce this image.  As for my thoughts on the process... look at the top of the Bellagio... how bright it is.  Look at the parking lot lights.  Hell, those lights wouldn't even be on, car headlights would never appear so bright while the sky is still so bright.  That sky had to have been shot about a half hour before dusk.

My bet is that the key seems to be this Alchemy stuff. According to Jim, Alchemy will become a central control of the processing. It could be that this is actually a single pic shooted way later than 1/2 h before dusk, maybe even at night. I can be wrong but I smell a surprise. According to the way he presents it, it seems that it will be really powerfull and key component of RCX. Let's wait and see.

(I think it's a night shot)

Any Graham spy report here?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 11:43:03 AM by fredjeang » Logged
torger
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 11:34:48 AM »
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Sorry, all I see here is a cheap HDR look that doesn't seem particularly hard to achieve with just about any recent sensor.

But why on earth would anyone want to achieve that look?

Because the general public likes that Smiley. Peter Lik is rather successful commercially. I like his photography too, although he is a bit over the top at times.
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ondebanks
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 11:38:05 AM »
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Actually the deal with Epic HDRx is as follows...  when the option is enabled, the camera shoots two simultaneous data streams (two video tracks), one at your normal intended exposure and another at a higher shutter speed (operator selectable between 1 - 6 stops of hilight protection).  

Thanks for the explanation Chris...but it raises more questions. So, to shoot two simultaneous data streams, it must have two separate sensors fed by the same optics via a beam-splitter, or something??

Ray
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