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Author Topic: Urban landscape with RED Epic done by Peter Lik  (Read 16181 times)
ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 11:50:41 AM »
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nothing that complicated..  I'm pretty sure it alternates frames... if you typically shoot a 180 deg shutter, then the sensor is off half of the time between each frame, which allows the Epic to use that "down time" to capture a quicker exposure between the normal frames which is recorded to a separate track.  The only downside is it requires twice the storage.  Oddly, every time I've turned HDRx on, I haven't ended up using the hilight protection track.  I always seem to have enough DR out of the Epic with the straight exposure.
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »
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It's a nice image, but the fanboy comments based on a small JPEG are a bit of a joke. You could get the same result with most $1K SLRs after the same 'grading' and tone mapping. Calling it a Phase-beater because they stitched enough images together to beat it is pointless. Any Canikon user could claim the same. It's still not giving you that much resolution in one shot mode (14MP?) That's fantastic for video, obviously. They also don't mention what kind of exposure controls you have. Can you make a 30 second exposure with it? 1/4000th? Can you shoot stills at all or do you have to pull a frame from video? If so, can you shoot stills tethered? I doubt it. Can you even use flash with it? Too many things are missing to make this a serious stills tool. A bit like oohing and aahing over a Canon 5Dii as a video camera - it can pull off some neat tricks but it's fairly limited.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 12:35:57 PM by Graham Mitchell » Logged

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fredjeang
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 12:41:29 PM »
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I'm not sure if we are there yet (on real converegence), but Red is the closest IMO.

I've always seen C.Barrett very enthousiastic about Red and I trust him on his feelings knowing how demanding his work is and also
the fact that he also actually works in situ with high-end Phase equipment.

So if people like him are enthousistic it should be quite good.

I really think Red's got it right. They will be a huge player.

I know that people tend easily to loose control, but actually on the Red forum, since the Epic I've read many times people saying: "I'll get rid-off my MF gear" stuff like that.
Yes, those can be emotional responses but I think that there is something happening, something that is changing the panorama.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 12:44:30 PM by fredjeang » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 12:41:46 PM »
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If RED makes the same headway with MF landscape and fashion customers as the 5DII made in the pro film and video world, then the MF vendors  will be in serious trouble.

Edmund

It's a nice image, but the fanboy comments based on a small JPEG are a bit of a joke. You could get the same result with most $1K SLRs after the same 'grading' and tone mapping. Calling it a Phase-beater because they stitched enough images together to beat it is pointless. Any Canikon user could claim the same. It's still not giving you that much resolution in one shot mode (14MP?) That's fantastic for video, obviously. They also don't mention what kind of exposure controls you have. Can you make a 30 second exposure with it? 1/4000th? Can you shoot stills at all or do you have to pull a frame from video? If so, can you shoot stills tethered? I doubt it. Can you even use flash with it? Too many things are missing to make this a serious stills tool. A bit like oohing and aahing over a Canon 5Dii as a video camera - it can pull off some neat tricks but it's fairly limited.
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 12:44:41 PM »
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Sorry, all I see here is a cheap HDR look that doesn't seem particularly hard to achieve with just about any recent sensor.

But why on earth would anyone want to achieve that look?

Cheers,
Bernard

i sign this comment from bernard.
its my opinion as well.
i see heavily over-saturated colors and a kind of look i would try to avoid with any camera i use ....
but its interesting how many stunnings and bravos this gets here in the forum Smiley

and of courses the red is not THE future. at best it will be a part of it, and this most likely in the film world. there will be more and more overlap between the two worlds but i dont think they will merge.
in photography i think there will also appear  stunning new things which have much more to do with photographic versatility than with the possibility to compete with real professional video systems. the gap from the way cheaper and smaller competition to this hi end gear will become smaller, till a point where "normal" professional needs will be full-filled by the smaller and cheaper systems for both: pictures and vidos. maybe not in terms of the absolute quality, means 4k or 60 or 80mp images are very nice to archive, but the reality does not play on 4k screens and not on 2 or 3meter prints.
its more and more about displaying images on screens with a max. of 2000 pixels and with video with 1080pixel, if much. dynamic range, hi iso, colors, versatility and good handling are what is needed to work in our times. not a van full of gear. maybe all is different in fashion, but i believe if i would be a fashion shooter, i would be very happy about the increasing isos and the chances which this opens, i wouldnt care about red systems and about everything which makes the set big, expensive and unspontaneous. i would explore the new chances our technic is opening for me, and there is much more to explore than just hybrid video/photo cams of the higher end.

i just bought an oktokopter, to shoot with my canon from rc directed plane. this tool weights complete 5 kilo and seems to delivers such stunning and unseen possibilities ... and i am sure in 2 years i will have the same with 2,5 kilo. i have to learn to fly this drones now, not easy at all! but thats photographic future as well. technic merges and runs very fast forward. no time to stay behind and to invest huge amounts of money in systems which , maybe , will be obsolete in 3 or 4 years. i am not convinced that this will not happen with the praised red ( in photographer hands ).
maybe all this big systems are dinosaurs. its not such important if 8x10" has better resolution than a 80mp back. its about possibilities you loose if you use this big and complicate systems.
i dont see the red here as an exception.
all this might be different in studio work and - of course in the hand of movie makers.
lets see where 35mm cameras will be in 2 or 3 years. they are very close to fulfill nearly all professional needs, if there someone will ad some raw or semi raw for footage i cent see much future for red in photographers hands. at least not in mine ....
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:11:39 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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fredjeang
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 12:48:56 PM »
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i signe this comment from bernard.
its my opinion as well.
i see heavily oversaturated colors and a kind of look i would try to avoid with any camera i use ....
but its interesting how many stunnings and bravos this gets here in the forum Smiley

Rainer, it's not this image itself. This pic is horror. It's that it comes from a video camera with no other tricks than grading.
It's not this little jpeg that is the cool thing, it's to see the convergence getting step by step a reality. IMO.
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bcooter
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2011, 12:57:44 PM »
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This is the point people are missing.

It's not about whether you personally like the colors or tone of this image, because though I know this look is in post processing, in my world I believe the RED file is the most film like file of any digital camera I own.

This IS about if your shooting this or any other scene and when panning across I can promise you the AD, client, client's client, someone will say, wow that's great . . . can we make a still image from it?

If you say sure, no problem, they smile.  If you say uh, well not really, they don't smile.

So the answer is sure, no problem.

Doesn't mean it will replace still cameras, but it does mean it's a wonderful addition to the work your producing.

IMO

BC
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2011, 01:20:20 PM »
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i am not sure if the red is closer to hi end hi-res imaging than a canon is to hi end video.
maybe both are here very similar coming from different ends. so both worlds will merge that you can do either videos accompanied by hi res images with systems as the red, or images accompanied by video, which also will be good enough for most customers, with systems as canon or sony or nikon. soon both will be good enough for any or nearly any client, so its up to us to choose which way we will go.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:22:07 PM by rainer_v » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2011, 01:51:09 PM »
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pardon me, but "m'eh"
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2011, 01:58:44 PM »
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To me the Holy Grail of convergence would be a camera that could produce a still file with the quality of my Pentax 645D and professsional video with the quality of a Red Epic.

Judging by the results of the Panasonic GH2 video hacks, Panasonic is close to this right now, technology wise.

See http://vimeo.com/30751603

IMO Pentax could have Panasonic build them a killer 654D CMOS sensor for the next version of the 645D and scoop the world. Picture a $15,000 camera that could do it all.

The problem is why would they do this and kill their own high end video products.
That's why they crippled the GH2 rather than make it a RED killer.    Wink


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fredjeang
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2011, 02:48:04 PM »
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To me the Holy Grail of convergence would be a camera that could produce a still file with the quality of my Pentax 645D and professsional video with the quality of a Red Epic.

Judging by the results of the Panasonic GH2 video hacks, Panasonic is close to this right now, technology wise.

See http://vimeo.com/30751603

IMO Pentax could have Panasonic build them a killer 654D CMOS sensor for the next version of the 645D and scoop the world. Picture a $15,000 camera that could do it all.

The problem is why would they do this and kill their own high end video products.
That's why they crippled the GH2 rather than make it a RED killer.    Wink


The GH2 is a great video camera, and a very decent 16MP still (in fact very much the same as the old 1D 17MP you remember?...ups, it was such a long time ago...)
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fredjeang
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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2011, 03:24:17 PM »
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i sign this comment from bernard.
its my opinion as well.
i see heavily over-saturated colors and a kind of look i would try to avoid with any camera i use ....
but its interesting how many stunnings and bravos this gets here in the forum Smiley

and of courses the red is not THE future. at best it will be a part of it, and this most likely in the film world. there will be more and more overlap between the two worlds but i dont think they will merge.
in photography i think there will also appear  stunning new things which have much more to do with photographic versatility than with the possibility to compete with real professional video systems. the gap from the way cheaper and smaller competition to this hi end gear will become smaller, till a point where "normal" professional needs will be full-filled by the smaller and cheaper systems for both: pictures and vidos. maybe not in terms of the absolute quality, means 4k or 60 or 80mp images are very nice to archive, but the reality does not play on 4k screens and not on 2 or 3meter prints.
its more and more about displaying images on screens with a max. of 2000 pixels and with video with 1080pixel, if much. dynamic range, hi iso, colors, versatility and good handling are what is needed to work in our times. not a van full of gear. maybe all is different in fashion, but i believe if i would be a fashion shooter, i would be very happy about the increasing isos and the chances which this opens, i wouldnt care about red systems and about everything which makes the set big, expensive and unspontaneous. i would explore the new chances our technic is opening for me, and there is much more to explore than just hybrid video/photo cams of the higher end.

i just bought an oktokopter, to shoot with my canon from rc directed plane. this tool weights complete 5 kilo and seems to delivers such stunning and unseen possibilities ... and i am sure in 2 years i will have the same with 2,5 kilo. i have to learn to fly this drones now, not easy at all! but thats photographic future as well. technic merges and runs very fast forward. no time to stay behind and to invest huge amounts of money in systems which , maybe , will be obsolete in 3 or 4 years. i am not convinced that this will not happen with the praised red ( in photographer hands ).
maybe all this big systems are dinosaurs. its not such important if 8x10" has better resolution than a 80mp back. its about possibilities you loose if you use this big and complicate systems.
i dont see the red here as an exception.
all this might be different in studio work and - of course in the hand of movie makers.
lets see where 35mm cameras will be in 2 or 3 years. they are very close to fulfill nearly all professional needs, if there someone will ad some raw or semi raw for footage i cent see much future for red in photographers hands. at least not in mine ....


Rainer, the argumentation you developped is good IMO, and I join your views in many of them.
It is true that DSLR's, still camera industry, have been able to produce video capabilities usable professionaly, and so far, video manufacturers haven't been able to produce stills usable professionaly, except Red.

So obviously, still manufacturers have their word to say and they will (and they are).

But when talking about video, it seems to me that a crucial factor is missed so far by the competition: Raw Video.

Canon is fine, but the other day we had a motion with 3 Canons, 2 5D2 and 1 60 or 600D don't remember, one of those recent entry-level. Anyway. Despite all the cares we took on set, there are not 2 cameras that shoot with the same wb and there are always differences that have to be treated in post. With Raw that would be much easier to fix.

Then, those are cameras designed 50 or more (I don't remember I wasn't born) years ago. Their usability in video remain very poor unless you zacuto. This design is obsolete IMO. The Red Epic is more advanced in that aspect, it's a box like a MF better implemented in its design for convergence than a proper film still camera designed when our cosmic dust started to collapse into itself, where they just added a sensor and some video capabilities.

As I edit R3D, I can see the huge differences with the canons. Not when conditions are fine, but when conditions are not ideal. And generally, conditions are not ideal.

Then, Red Cine X is a great software. Really. It's like Capture One. If they implement in the future a proper timeline with serious editing capabilities and a bunch of advanced functions that are missing, I would not even need any other software than this one. I wish all video softwares where built that way. It's a breeze in use.

Think that you got a footage and you can, for free, at least do a rough cut and send it to the client, extract stills...Does Canon or Sony, with their new video capabilities offer a free simplify Vegas, so we can start to work ? Red does.

Then, DR is amazing, the look is filmic, the resolution is impressive and when downsampled it's visible.

Maybe I'll exagerate, but I think that Jim is a sort of Steve Jobs in this industry. They think different, they have great team, they design really well, and they are currently the only one who are doing Raw video at this prices. Red of course will not be the only player, I don't beleive that, but I do think they will be a major player, a reference. I can be wrong of course.

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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 03:24:56 PM »
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i am not sure if the red is closer to hi end hi-res imaging than a canon is to hi end video.
maybe both are here very similar coming from different ends. so both worlds will merge that you can do either videos accompanied by hi res images with systems as the red, or images accompanied by video, which also will be good enough for most customers, with systems as canon or sony or nikon. soon both will be good enough for any or nearly any client, so its up to us to choose which way we will go.

SHIFT-key broken?
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« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2011, 04:03:19 PM »
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My ass no HDR, this shot looks just as fake as any other HDR shot out there.
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2011, 04:20:35 PM »
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As I edit R3D, I can see the huge differences with the canons. Not when conditions are fine, but when conditions are not ideal. And generally, conditions are not ideal.

Then, Red Cine X is a great software. Really. It's like Capture One. If they implement in the future a proper timeline with serious editing capabilities and a bunch of advanced functions that are missing, I would not even need any other software than this one. I wish all video softwares where built that way. It's a breeze in use.

Think that you got a footage and you can, for free, at least do a rough cut and send it to the client, extract stills...Does Canon or Sony, with their new video capabilities offer a free simplify Vegas, so we can start to work ? Red does.

Then, DR is amazing, the look is filmic, the resolution is impressive and when downsampled it's visible.

Maybe I'll exagerate, but I think that Jim is a sort of Steve Jobs in this industry. They think different, they have great team, they design really well, and they are currently the only one who are doing Raw video at this prices. Red of course will not be the only player, I don't beleive that, but I do think they will be a major player, a reference. I can be wrong of course.



 i think in many aspects you are right, and certainly there are productions where the amount of stuff you are using does not really matter,  so even if costs are to be taken care of ( and this is more important now than ever before in photography ) the equipment can be rented, as long as there is manpower to use it and its sw.
but there are many applications where other things matter: who wants to carry around a red with all its accessories on fast changing locations, for landscape shots, for architecture or for aereals. all this can be done, but if it does not have to be done its much better. at least i prefer that.
one of the biggest advantages of digital was for me that my gear went from 50 - 70 kilo to 15 including carbon tripoid,- of course without light, but i am european and so luckily from a tradition where we learned to shoot  interiors usually without big lamps or flash stuff Smiley.
and all this is not only about to be more comfortable, its also - and this is even more important - about spontaneity during the shot, this can change a production more than any 5% or 10% more quality will do, which often or most will only be seen by the photographer itself, but rarely by the client.
lets see if it takes another one, two or three years till compressed raw will also be available in panasonic, canon, sony, nikon photo-cams. i am nearly sure that there will not be a long wait for it ... maybe not in 4k, but in 1080 or 2k.

i dont have any fun to think in traveling with a red by plane, and ... i know, everything can be rented, but i know too that in practice it may even be difficult to get a spare battery for your digital back if you have bad luck and/or catch the wrong moment- even in big cities in the US . .. and i dont want to depend on my main gear on much rented equipment, i need it too often and i want to know it quite good, therefor i want to own it if i use it frequently.
its  great at this moment that i can take my artek with 6 lenses and my canon with 6 lenses in my hand luggage to wherever in the world i want to go. ... and its no fun to think in a red system and to fly around quite often,- and thats what i have to do. for me as architecture photographer all this red stuff is too big and too clumsy, even not thinking in the money it costs if completed, beside the other stuff i need in any case too, which is my canon system and my artek/leaf gear.

well i am this days just enthusiastic about micro equipment ... and how small the things get this days, offering possibilities i used to use so huge machines .. as helicopters, cherry pickers or truck based cranes of all type.  

look at this video ( i just found them in the net, they arent made by me ) and imagine the possibilities, what could be done with this little machine and how the things might change if the technic gets smaller, and it will get smaller .....
http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/VideoAbspielen?id=227
http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/VideoAbspielen?id=220
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 04:56:28 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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fredjeang
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« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2011, 05:32:18 PM »
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i think in many aspects you are right, and certainly there are productions where the amount of stuff you are using does not really matter,  so even if costs are to be taken care of ( and this is more important now than ever before in photography ) the equipment can be rented, as long as there is manpower to use it and its sw.
but there are many applications where other things matter: who wants to carry around a red with all its accessories on fast changing locations, for landscape shots, for architecture or for aereals. all this can be done, but if it does not have to be done its much better. at least i prefer that.
one of the biggest advantages of digital was for me that my gear went from 50 - 70 kilo to 15 including carbon tripoid,- of course without light, but i am european and so luckily from a tradition where we learned to shoot  interiors usually without big lamps or flash stuff Smiley.
and all this is not only about to be more comfortable, its also - and this is even more important - about spontaneity during the shot, this can change a production more than any 5% or 10% more quality will do, which often or most will only be seen by the photographer itself, but rarely by the client.
lets see if it takes another one, two or three years till compressed raw will also be available in panasonic, canon, sony, nikon photo-cams. i am nearly sure that there will not be a long wait for it ... maybe not in 4k, but in 1080 or 2k.

i dont have any fun to think in traveling with a red by plane, and ... i know, everything can be rented, but i know too that in practice it may even be difficult to get a spare battery for your digital back if you have bad luck and/or catch the wrong moment- even in big cities in the US . .. and i dont want to depend on my main gear on much rented equipment, i need it too often and i want to know it quite good, therefor i want to own it if i use it frequently.
its  great at this moment that i can take my artek with 6 lenses and my canon with 6 lenses in my hand luggage to wherever in the world i want to go. ... and its no fun to think in a red system and to fly around quite often,- and thats what i have to do. for me as architecture photographer all this red stuff is too big and too clumsy, even not thinking in the money it costs if completed, beside the other stuff i need in any case too, which is my canon system and my artek/leaf gear.

well i am this days just enthusiastic about micro equipment ... and how small the things get this days, offering possibilities i used to use so huge machines .. as helicopters, cherry pickers or truck based cranes of all type.  

look at this video ( i just found them in the net, they arent made by me ) and imagine the possibilities, what could be done with this little machine and how the things might change if the technic gets smaller, and it will get smaller .....
http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/VideoAbspielen?id=227
http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki/VideoAbspielen?id=220

Great links.

Again, I'm very much in your line. I'm also very enthusiastic about micro gear and the progress made those years are amazing. And yeah, there are incredible footage that can be acheive with small cameras now.

But precisely talking about that, when I saw the specs of the new 1D MK X, I felt disapointed. For ex, one of the claim I'm doing for some time is to get rid-off the matte-box slavery and external ND filters, precisely because in one case you loose the agility and compactness, and in the other you add what I call a gadget easy to loose, break and forget.  If you think about it, it would not have cost Canon miracles to integrate electronically, but no, they didn't. I realised that in fact they still think stills and after looking carefully at the specs, to my desperation I realised that the only think they did was incrementing the video bit-rate and a few more goodies while the design continues to oblige us in the end to robocop the camera wich become a big heavy gear, not really that much smaller than the Epic.

And that's the sad part. Because I do beleive like you that there is a great future in smaller cameras. In fact, I honestly prefer keeping the GH2 and boosting it with this Hack than getting a 1D MK X at 7000euros that won't give more stellar footage anyway and still is as big with all the circus as a Red.


  
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 05:39:21 PM by fredjeang » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2011, 05:56:26 PM »
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seems like the gh2 hack is amazing.

reg. canon it looks like the  things changed, they were leading the 35mm developments several years, but it looks like it will be now the time of the sony/nikon  camp.
i am disappointed too by the 1dx, although i never liked the 1* lineup,- but the 5d line for its size.
lets wait what will bring the 5dmk3.
i doubt that canon really realized what ball they brought in the game with the 5dmk2 video capacity. but now the ghost is out of the bottle, it wont go in again. the gh2 will not be the end.

the things run fast and its not all about video.
its not long time ago that canon brought out their new 17 and 24tse lenses. these are a little revolution too, for  my field of photography. there are no better lens in the market than these in terms of geometric distortion combined with their quality. simply amazing optics. they are the reason why one can photograph now architecture without feeling to stand in the second row, using 35mm.
the sensors are second important, its all about the available lenses. i myself work with my mf gear and i like the quality and the resolution and the workflow (!!!)  it delivers.  but the 35mm camera department is so fast catching up territory on all faces, one year this manufacture next year that one.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 02:57:30 AM by rainer_v » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2011, 05:59:36 PM »
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Holy...

And why exactly does the video world have this but we don't have it with stills, except some compacts? We all knew that Canon and Nikon aren't doing anything but incremental updates. Do we really need RED (and perhaps Ricoh and Fuji and Sony and Panasonic) to put some (more) fire under them before they start innovating?

I believe this is easy with a rolling shutter but not so easy with a physical shutter, but then rolling shutters are not so suitable for stills photography. (Don't believe the hype.)
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« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2011, 06:06:53 PM »
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Sorry, all I see here is a cheap HDR look that doesn't seem particularly hard to achieve with just about any recent sensor.

But why on earth would anyone want to achieve that look?

Cheers,
Bernard


Very easy: Lik makes $$zagillions$$, so proof is there are lots who like it...
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2011, 08:25:23 PM »
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I believe this is easy with a rolling shutter but not so easy with a physical shutter, but then rolling shutters are not so suitable for stills photography. (Don't believe the hype.)

I'd imagine a universal shutter would also make it feasible, although I'm no techie. Panasonic has been rumored to come up with an MFT camera with a universal shutter in the near future...
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