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Author Topic: Leica S2 30mm  (Read 16296 times)
wildlightphoto
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2011, 09:29:44 AM »
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Yes, but I am not discussing the quality of the lens, system,... that I know is excellent.

As far as the pictures linked to, I don't doubt that the full size images tell a different story, but at that size just about any decent APS camera would be able to do just as well with the right lights. Heck, I suspect that even a Canon S100 would be able to produce these images.

 Roll Eyes
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kers
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2011, 11:12:30 AM »
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-- who ever heard of good bohek on a 24mm equivalent, eh?....


here the bokeh of the 24mm nikkor 1,4 at close(st) distance at 1,4

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Pieter Kers
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2011, 11:32:46 AM »
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I guess that the comparison of the maximum apertures would be relevant if the S2 were a real MF FF camera instead of being a mere APS version of MF. Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard


there is a disconnect here and you don't get it... first off, MF refers to Medium-Format right?.. and Medium-Format is from to the old days of 120 film.. if a camera took 120 it was medium format, 35mm film was small format and sheet film was large format..whether you used a handheld 4x5 graflex rangefinder or 11x14 view camera, Hey, guess what?... flim is off the commercial table now.. not relevant...done!..commercial digital cameras range from 4/3rd sensors to almost 645 80mp sensors.. seems to me that the S2 sensor size is in the middle somewhere..however I would say that it produces image quality in the old "Large-Format" range, so your comment inferring that the S2 is not up to "MF" is just a full frame of BS..Image quality matters above sensor size.
 I know there are guys(no girls would do such things) who spend a lot of time and effort trying to compare an 8x10 piece of film to the current high end 80mp and smaller multi-shot sensors and they are amazing and have replaced Large-Format work.  Also by using your MF FF definition a sinar p3 tech camera with 16mp digital back is really not "medium-format" either..please!Enough!
It is pointless to keep using these old film-era monikers.. for hand-held shooting you really don't need anything better than what the S2 provides..and it does provide it at f2.5 with a sensor/lenses twice the size of traditional slr cameras.. German glass has always been had at a premium, before AF, before weather sealing, before electronic leaf shutters, before our weak dollar.  Leica S2 lenses offer this, if you want to be shocked, try their cine lenses.. simple yet elegant manual lenses that won't even cover the S2 sensor @ around 20g per lens.. oh yeah, you have to buy it in a set of 8 focal lengths.. so, in comparison the folks in solms likely think that this AF 30mm is a deal.
Sadly too few photographers sell their work in a smart business model making the sting of new equipment less painful. I know it is an old argument but do the math on a years worth of film and processing in the old days.. most guys would say it was in the 5 digit range.. a year..if you're shooting digital now and are not billing for digital capture, etc.. that is just too damn bad..and that new sensor/camera you want to upgrade is just going to hurt.
 If you want the old quality of medium format film.. you can get yourself great camera like the contax or other and relive the 120film days of glory..But if you just want the old "medium format" price point, I personally think that both canon and nikon digital solutions have filled this area very nicely..and improved on what I use to get from my hasselblad 500cm shooting film. This is the new "medium format"..the cameras that do the mass share of commercial work. The high end hasselblads and this Leica are not for the masses.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2011, 04:03:27 PM »
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there is a disconnect here and you don't get it... first off, MF refers to Medium-Format right?.. and Medium-Format is from to the old days of 120 film.. if a camera took 120 it was medium format, 35mm film was small format and sheet film was large format..whether you used a handheld 4x5 graflex rangefinder or 11x14 view camera, Hey, guess what?... flim is off the commercial table now.. not relevant...done!..commercial digital cameras range from 4/3rd sensors to almost 645 80mp sensors.. seems to me that the S2 sensor size is in the middle somewhere..however I would say that it produces image quality in the old "Large-Format" range, so your comment inferring that the S2 is not up to "MF" is just a full frame of BS..Image quality matters above sensor size.

My comment was not about the camera/sensor size, it was about the lens and its image circle.

My point was that accepting the higher price of the 30mm because it is an f2.8 lens compared to the Mamiya 28mm and to the Pentax 25mm that open only at f4 is not relevant because the image circle needed to cover the S2 sensor is much smaller than the image circle needed to cover the full 645 frame addressed by the Mamiya and Pentax lenses.

I totally agree with you that the MF naming is not relevant, a D3x delivers better image quality than the MF backs dating a few years. We are on the same page so I will fortunately not have to rely on "full frame of BS" like wording.  Grin

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2011, 04:11:33 PM »
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My comment was not about the camera/sensor size, it was about the lens and its image circle.

My point was that accepting the higher price of the 30mm because it is an f2.8 lens compared to the Mamiya 28mm and to the Pentax 25mm that open only at f4 is not relevant because the image circle needed to cover the S2 sensor is much smaller than the image circle needed to cover the full 645 frame addressed by the Mamiya and Pentax lenses.

It's also not relevant because the Mamiya and Pentax lenses are slower, and it was you who compared the cost of these lenses.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2011, 04:13:38 PM »
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It's also not relevant because the Mamiya and Pentax lenses are slower, and it was you who compared the cost of these lenses.

Are you saying that the size of the image circle of a lens does not have any impact on its price?

Have you ever compared the price of a 110mm Schneider 4x5 lens opening at 5.6 to that of a 35mm 110mm lens opening at f2.8? Any clue why one is twice the price? Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 04:18:47 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2011, 04:40:32 PM »
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Are you saying that the size of the image circle of a lens does not have any impact on its price?

Not at all.  It was you who compared the prices of slower, wider lenses with the Leica lens.  The lens speed has an impact on the price too, so if a comparison with lenses having a bigger image circle is irrelevant (your words) then your comparison with slower lenses is also irrelevant.  IMHO it's better to compare results, not spec sheets.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2011, 04:44:13 PM »
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Not at all.  It was you who compared the prices of slower, wider lenses with the Leica lens.  The lens speed has an impact on the price too, so if a comparison with lenses having a bigger image circle is irrelevant (your words) then your comparison with slower lenses is also irrelevant.  IMHO it's better to compare results, not spec sheets.

OK, fine, the 30mm f2.8 is an amazing bargain.  Grin

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2011, 04:47:15 PM »
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OK, fine, the 30mm f2.8 is an amazing bargain.

I don't think we can reach that conclusion from the available information.  We haven't seen its performance yet.  What we do know is that it fits the S2 with full function (AF and aperture).  There aren't a lot of other lenses with its angular coverage that do that, and for some uses working on the S2 is a sufficient advantage.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 04:50:29 PM by telyt » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2011, 04:51:19 PM »
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I don't think we can reach that conclusion from the available information.  We haven't seen its performance yet.

I don't doubt that it is going to be an excellent lens and that it is going to be appealing for S2 users.

A 30mm f2.8 with that size of image circle shouldn't be a particularly challenging design to start with as we have seen from various 35mm T/S lenses covering at least the S2 sensor size with excellent results accross the frame.

Anything short of near perfection would be surprising even at half that price.

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2011, 05:36:13 PM »
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I don't doubt that it is going to be an excellent lens and that it is going to be appealing for S2 users.

A 30mm f2.8 with that size of image circle shouldn't be a particularly challenging design to start with as we have seen from various 35mm T/S lenses covering at least the S2 sensor size with excellent results accross the frame.

Anything short of near perfection would be surprising even at half that price.

If you believe it's over-priced there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from designing, manufacturing and marketing a competing lens that sells for less.  The trick is to do it profitably.  If it is truly over priced, and someone else can make a comparable lens for less, and there's enough of a market to recover development costs, there's money to be made.  Let's see if anyone steps up to the plate  Cheesy
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 05:46:19 PM by telyt » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2011, 06:47:08 PM »
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If you believe it's over-priced there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from designing, manufacturing and marketing a competing lens that sells for less.  The trick is to do it profitably.  If it is truly over priced, and someone else can make a comparable lens for less, and there's enough of a market to recover development costs, there's money to be made.  Let's see if anyone steps up to the plate  Cheesy

Sure, but this is not just about one lens. This one lens is just another stepping stone contributing to the global increase of MF equipment cost.

It is a vicious circle where higher prices reduce demand which in turns increases the impact of fixed cost in the price of equipment.

Nobody will try to make lenses for the S2 because the very price of the system makes it too unaffordable.

Pentax is showing the way with the 645D, similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price (depending on the market, the 645D is more than 3 times cheaper in Japan) and much cheaper lenses. But anyway, I'll stop here, I am not the main victim of this folly, I am just surprised to see so many smart photographers accept this as unavoidable.

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2011, 09:03:19 PM »
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Pentax is showing the way with the 645D, similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price (depending on the market, the 645D is more than 3 times cheaper in Japan) and much cheaper lenses. But anyway, I'll stop here, I am not the main victim of this folly, I am just surprised to see so many smart photographers accept this as unavoidable.

You've compared S-system lenses with Pentax lenses and found them similar or better?  That's not what I've been reading.  Several people have adapted Pentax 645 and 67 lenses to the S2 and found the results vary widely, from quite good to quite disappointing.  Cheaper is the one thing that's consistent about the Pentax medium-format lenses.
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mtomalty
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2011, 11:27:25 PM »
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And expensive is one constant in the Leica brand

What a hilarious pissing match

In the blue corner we have Bernard who doesn't appear to own the camera he's defending
and in the red corner we have Doug defending the camera he doesn't appear to own

Mark
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2011, 11:48:01 PM »
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What a hilarious pissing match

In the blue corner we have Bernard who doesn't appear to own the camera he's defending
and in the red corner we have Doug defending the camera he doesn't appear to own

Dear referee,

What are the odds?

This being said, I am not defending any camera here, just using one as a reference for common sense. Anyway, time is up.

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2011, 06:44:56 AM »
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And expensive is one constant in the Leica brand

So far another constant about the S lenses is performance.

What a hilarious pissing match

In the blue corner we have Bernard who doesn't appear to own the camera he's defending
and in the red corner we have Doug defending the camera he doesn't appear to own

Mark

I'm not defending anything except accuracy.  Accuracy is missing from Bernard's claims.

Bernard wrote: "similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price"

Price?  OK, that's accurate.  Performance?  Where does he get that data?  The comparisons I've seen contradict his claim.  If he want to substantiate his claim that the 30mm S lens is over priced he needs to demonstrate that comparable performance is available for less money.  We don't know how well the S lens performs (we can guess) so it's difficult to compare its performance with anything else, and consequently Bernard's claims can't be substantiated.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 07:25:01 AM by telyt » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2011, 09:05:14 AM »
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So far another constant about the S lenses is performance.

I'm not defending anything except accuracy.  Accuracy is missing from Bernard's claims.

Bernard wrote: "similar or better performance than the S2 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price"

Price?  OK, that's accurate.  Performance?  Where does he get that data?  The comparisons I've seen contradict his claim. 

That is factual for the body, right? Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2011, 10:22:32 AM »
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That is factual for the body, right? Smiley

Since I haven't used either the 645D or the S2 I can't say anything about performance.  Price is easier to compare.

My evaluation of a camera body's performance is more subjective than for a lens.  There are numerous performance metrics that can be compared directly but usability and handling in my typical use of a camera are another factor in my evaluation of a camera's "worth".  A $10k camera that has equal objective performance metrics to a $22k camera is not necessarily a better value if the user interface grates on my nerves.  So unless I've used both cameras I have no information make comparative valuations.

Now let's suppose the $10k camera body performs as well as the $22K body in all respects - would that make it a better value?  Not unless the lenses for both cameras are equivalent.  The comparisons I've seen of S lenses with Pentax lenses do not support your claim that their performance is similar or better.  Some of the Pentax lenses are quite good, some are not.  The S lenses tested to date have all been outstanding.  If your work requires the performance of the S lenses saving $12k on a body that can't use them is a false economy.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 10:56:41 AM by telyt » Logged
tsjanik
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2011, 01:45:30 PM »
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Since I haven't used either the 645D or the S2 I can't say anything about performance.  Price is easier to compare.

My evaluation of a camera body's performance is more subjective than for a lens.  There are numerous performance metrics that can be compared directly but usability and handling in my typical use of a camera are another factor in my evaluation of a camera's "worth".  A $10k camera that has equal objective performance metrics to a $22k camera is not necessarily a better value if the user interface grates on my nerves.  So unless I've used both cameras I have no information make comparative valuations.

Now let's suppose the $10k camera body performs as well as the $22K body in all respects - would that make it a better value?  Not unless the lenses for both cameras are equivalent.  The comparisons I've seen of S lenses with Pentax lenses do not support your claim that their performance is similar or better.  Some of the Pentax lenses are quite good, some are not.  The S lenses tested to date have all been outstanding.  If your work requires the performance of the S lenses saving $12k on a body that can't use them is a false economy.
Doug:
Lloyd Chambers has extensive reviews of both the 645D and S2 on his subscription site.  If you are interested in either of these cameras, his observations are worth the $39:
http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html       
http://diglloyd.com/index-leica.html
I donít believe he would object to my telling you that he prefers the usability and sensor of the 645D.  He loves the Leica lenses of course, but he also loved the Pentax 120mm A, a used copy of which will cost $450 at KEH.

Tom
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2011, 02:48:33 PM »
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Lloyd Chambers has extensive reviews of both the 645D and S2 on his subscription site.  If you are interested in either of these cameras, his observations are worth the $39:
http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html      
http://diglloyd.com/index-leica.html
I donít believe he would object to my telling you that he prefers the usability and sensor of the 645D.

Unfortunately that doesn't tell me which I would prefer for my working habits and conditions.

I'm mostly interested in long lenses (350mm+), which neither system has yet.  The long Pentax lenses seem to be among the weakest of the legacy models, and there's no new model.  Best bet for me would be adapting a Zeiss Superachromat or Leica Modular APO (which covers the S2's sensor with either the 1.4x or 2x focus modules) to one of these bodies.  The Zeiss 350 f/5.6 Superachromat and the Leica 400mm f/4 APO have both been adapted to the S2 with very satisfactory results.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 02:50:35 PM by telyt » Logged
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