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Author Topic: Canon strikes back...  (Read 25328 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« on: November 03, 2011, 06:09:59 PM »
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http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/canon-eos-c300-announced/

4K - 16.000 US$ - Jan 2012 availability.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 06:14:23 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 06:30:01 PM »
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http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/03/the-canon-hollywood-event-liveblog/
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Josh-H
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 08:43:28 PM »
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I realise this is the cinema forum.. but I have high hopes for the Canon 'C' DSLR being a high mega pixel camera alternative to the 1DX.....(wishful thinking?) possibly.. will be interesting to see more on this camera when its details are fed to us over the coming weeks / months...

Quote
Coming Attractions: New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development
 
HOLLYWOOD, California, November 3, 2011/TOKYO, November 4, 2011 – Canon Inc. today announced that the company is developing a new-concept EOS-series digital single-lens reflex (SLR) camera. Incorporating an enhanced version of the video-capture capability offered in the current EOS-series lineup, the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications. The model will be equipped with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor and, enabling the recording of 4K video* (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression), will make possible the type of exceptional image quality and sublime imaging expression to be expected from the next generation of "EOS Movies."
 
The announcement coincides with the launch of the Cinema EOS System, marking Canon's full-fledged entry into the digital high-resolution production industry. The new professional digital cinematography system spans the lens, digital cinema camera and digital SLR camera product categories.
 
Further details regarding the new EOS digital SLR camera currently under development, including the product name, specifications and scheduled launch date, have yet to be decided.
 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 08:46:42 PM by Josh-H » Logged

BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 09:21:25 PM »
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I realise this is the cinema forum.. but I have high hopes for the Canon 'C' DSLR being a high mega pixel camera alternative to the 1DX.....(wishful thinking?) possibly.. will be interesting to see more on this camera when its details are fed to us over the coming weeks / months...

I seems to be a native 8mp sensor optimized for motion.

Cheers,
Bernard
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feppe
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 09:22:31 PM »
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$20K - Canon is nuts.

a hard sell considering the Scarlet specs are better for the most part and almost half the price.

It's a pretty steep price for sure, but the EF version might make sense for those with existing EF lens collection so they don't have to invest in PL lenses.
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Josh-H
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 09:25:32 PM »
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I seems to be a native 8mp sensor optimized for motion.

Cheers,
Bernard


Yes, I agree with you. I hope Canon have something else coming for the stills photographer in the high MPX count or I am going to be left feeling very much in the cold...
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 10:53:10 PM »
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RED Scarlet with EOS mount for $11,500, that's the alternative for Canon EF lens owners.

The package you need to work is at 14.000 US$.

http://www.red.com/store/scarlet/product/scarlet-x-al-canon-mount-package

I am not sure what will be included with the Canon for 16.000 US$ so it is difficult to compare. Anyway, you would need to add 3 lenses to have the actual price of the camera and they would probably end up being roughly at the same price point.

Another factor to consider is that we can probably believe Canon to have cameras in the hands of photographers in January 2012, while the Red has been delayed for a long time and I have not seen a firm shipment date anywhere on the Red site.

Cheers,
Bernard
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michael
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 11:00:57 PM »
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Scarlett's are in the warehouse. Shipping this month.

Michael
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 12:47:19 AM »
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Scarlett's are in the warehouse. Shipping this month.

Things are getting interesting.

Now is the time to start [motion] pixel peeping I guess.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 12:48:50 AM »
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it almost seems like red waited for canon to announce the price.....sighed with relief and blew up the market...
i am intrigued by the 4k canon sensor, something like a sigma thing going on here? 4 pixels to make one for better color?
either way....16000 for the body shipping in 2012 is not so good....maybe marty scorsese knows something we don't but the specs and plastic-ey look don't work for me at all...
the scarlet on the other hand makes the 1dx look overpriced....and late to the party.....
it also makes the new hasselblad h4dx (or whatever) body look ridiculously overpriced....
red scarlet canon mount 9750...with ssd and screen ready to shoot for about 12500.....shipping dec 1st...
oh...and the red does AF with canon lenses....unlike the c300....

the only interesting thing about that canon show was the planned c-dslr but considering what we know (c300 and 1dx) i really do not see how they will come up with something even close to scarlet in the next year even.....somehow i am not even excited about the idea of the 5dIII anymore....

i ordered the scarlet...it will be interesting to see if it will replace my 5dii for stills...
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 01:01:50 AM »
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I realise this is the cinema forum.. but I have high hopes for the Canon 'C' DSLR being a high mega pixel camera alternative to the 1DX.....(wishful thinking?) possibly.. will be interesting to see more on this camera when its details are fed to us over the coming weeks / months...

I seems to be a native 8mp sensor optimized for motion.

Cheers,
Bernard

I think you're right Josh. The sensor in the new "C" camera is full frame, not the 8 megapixel smaller sensor from the C300.

The photos of the prototype show a 1D X body type, but they are positioning it as a top tier video camera (better than the 1D X) and are using phrases like "high resolution". I'm guessing it's going to be positioned as a top tier "convergence" camera, with both better video than any other Canon DSLR and likely a higher megapixel sensor to go along with it.

I think it's a replacement for the 1Ds III, but renamed to better reflect Canon's increasing focus on video and the convergence of motion/still imagery.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 02:06:59 AM »
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the only interesting thing about that canon show was the planned c-dslr but considering what we know (c300 and 1dx) i really do not see how they will come up with something even close to scarlet in the next year even.....somehow i am not even excited about the idea of the 5dIII anymore....

Me neither.

This new Canon falls IMO between a rock and a hard place. We knew something like that would happen because they where very involved in their cine lens line, but I would expect more compatibility. And it does looks plastic (although it may feels right in practise).


Out of topic: It really makes me boil this FCP7 monopoly in Red's official forum. I do not get the point. It's like the only NLE in this world is FCP7 and the only OS is Apple, and we know that if it's vastly truth in photography, it's far from being the case in motion. So if you are an Apple user and FCP editor, you have tons and tons of infos, tricks, debates on how-to with FCP7 and almost nothing with Avid, much less with Premiere, Edius and Windows or Linux platforms...

Something escapes to my understanding here.

Could it be that the profile of Avid or Smoke, Flame etc... users aren't really interested to post in the forums? or is-it a hidden commercial reason?

  

« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 02:30:49 AM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 02:43:43 AM »
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Out of topic: It really makes me boil this FCP7 monopoly in Red's official forum. I do not get the point.



Fred,

A lot of most of the filmakers on the Red Forum are from the Indie world and FCP dominates that world due to cost and the fact it was the first NLE that really had modern functions we've all come to know.

If you've ever seen AVID or worse Media 100 pre FCP you'd know what I mean.

Also FCP is rather intuitive in comparison to most NLE's.

In LA and most of the editorial world, Premire is not a standard, same with Edius.  Nearly every professional editor knows AVID though they also are well trained in FCP 7.

FCP X, well that's another matter and I find it hard to believe that Apple will let that market disappear, given the overwhelming response of the camera makers.   I really do see a ramp up of FCP X soon, or even a rewrite, but that's just a guess.

I think most FCP 7 users would be happy to settle for 64 bit and less rendering time.

Remember, it's only been a decade where someone with a small budget could really edit professionally and now with the 5d2 and the New Scarlet, professional films can be shot on budgets that just were unheard of in the past.



IMO

BC

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bcooter
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2011, 02:46:49 AM »
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I guess we all have to wait and see what/where/when the new scarlet appears and how good it is.  I'm betting it's good.

It's funny how things have changed.

In the still world, larger professional cameras tripled in price compared to anything Canon announced, but RED goes the other way and offers more for less money.

Maybe there is something none of us know, but it seems like in motion it's a RED world.

We're placing our now, but we'll still buy an EPIC.

IMO

BC
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2011, 03:01:06 AM »
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For more infos - there is a new website canon has launched especially for the 300 and lenses:

http://www.canoncinemaeos.com/

Doesn´t look to me as if they are joking, this is serious and for a first try............ Respect !
Give them 1-2 years and the rest of the industry will be having a BIG problem.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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fredjeang
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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 03:41:15 AM »
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Fred,

A lot of most of the filmakers on the Red Forum are from the Indie world and FCP dominates that world due to cost and the fact it was the first NLE that really had modern functions we've all come to know.

If you've ever seen AVID or worse Media 100 pre FCP you'd know what I mean.

Also FCP is rather intuitive in comparison to most NLE's.

In LA and most of the editorial world, Premire is not a standard, same with Edius.  Nearly every professional editor knows AVID though they also are well trained in FCP 7.

FCP X, well that's another matter and I find it hard to believe that Apple will let that market disappear, given the overwhelming response of the camera makers.   I really do see a ramp up of FCP X soon, or even a rewrite, but that's just a guess.

I think most FCP 7 users would be happy to settle for 64 bit and less rendering time.

Remember, it's only been a decade where someone with a small budget could really edit professionally and now with the 5d2 and the New Scarlet, professional films can be shot on budgets that just were unheard of in the past.



IMO

BC



It's true.

I think I don't realise how bad things where before FCP, I did not knew that time and yeah, Media Composer has evolved, Avid listened and I only know what's there now, that's why it's difficult for me to understand the real apportation of FCP brought in its time. Now it's almost the opposite, it's rather short compare to the competition and needs a successor.

Talking about that, I also see a good future for FCPX. It's not ready but it will evolve for sure. Now it will depend on what they have in mind.

If you think about, it is maybe a more intuitive approach but I see a NLE with a classic flavor with FCPX. It's faster, more intuitive but I think it's not the tool we really need.
If we are going to get still-motion workflows, and cameras will allow us to do both, we need the softwares to be the same. Because it would be rather ironic to gain on one side and being stucked into the same mess we know now.
Softwares are not going as fast as cameras. Very soon we'll shoot all with one or 2 devices. In what we're going to edit? 10000 softwares and plug-ins and micro programs that convert etc... and a suite for stills and another suite for motion? I don't see it.

I think that we need something way more advanced than FCPX for the comming workflows.

In this, I see a RCX based software more in-line to what could be the next generation: multilenguage editors with no reso dependance. RCX looks like C1 or Lightroom, the base is good.

IMHO.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 03:45:56 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Mr. Rib
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« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 04:35:51 AM »
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A quick question- how does the REDCODE RAW differ from a regular RAW? Tech specs at red website say that Epic shoots RAW and Scarlet shoots REDCODE RAW.
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bcooter
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 05:26:58 AM »
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snip.......
Doesn´t look to me as if they are joking, this is serious and for a first try............ Respect !
Give them 1-2 years and the rest of the industry will be having a BIG problem.
snip.........

If I had placed bets last week, I would have thought Canon would come out with a 4k digital motion and still camera that shot raw, with auto focus and came in at 10 to 12 grand, maybe less.

I would have bet it would have a super 35 sensor and  been on the shelves for the holidays.

For Red I would have placed a bunch of dead presidents,  that they would have a 2/3's inch chip, autofocus, single zoom lens camera that sold for 18 to 20 grand with a deliery date tbd.

Man have things changed.

We don't know how any of these cameras are going to shoot, how dependable, how long they'll last in the market, but it amazes me that Canon has talked to everyone in the biz, from the suits to the guys with dirt under their fingernails and still got it so semi there rather than really there.

It just goes to show that RED wasn't just listening, they were inventing a new market while playing to a base.  It also shows that RED was really taking notes to the guys that pull 16 hour days.

Tell me one DP that won't have one of these things in the case, or any still photographer getting serious with motion that won't see this as entry level heaven.

Good for RED and I hope Canon get's the message, starts making changes fast and competes, but can they do it by November?

IMO

BC

P.S.   Looking at the LaForte movie which was done well, I thought the the color was way monotone.  Maybe it was just a grading issue, maybe it was the directors choice, but the color on the web view wasn't anything I expected for a Canon debut.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 05:28:48 AM by bcooter » Logged
michael
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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 07:21:14 AM »
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RECODE is REDCODE, for all RED cameras. Same difference. It's their raw video software.

What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.

Scarlet-X is simply an EPIC with lower maximum data rates. Everything else about it otherwise is identical to the EPIC. In other words a 4K motion picture camera that can also shoot 14MP stills at 12FPS.

Dynamic range, raw, etc are all the same as what Hollywood and others have been shooting major motion pictures with, except now one can get it for under $15,000, fully operational except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.

These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.

Michael
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fredjeang
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 07:33:12 AM »
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RECODE is REDCODE, for all RED cameras. Same difference. It's their raw video software.

What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.

Scarlet-X is simply an EPIC with lower maximum data rates. Everything else about it otherwise is identical to the EPIC. In other words a 4K motion picture camera that can also shoot 14MP stills at 12FPS.

Dynamic range, raw, etc are all the same as what Hollywood and others have been shooting major motion pictures with, except now one can get it for under $15,000, fully operational except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.

These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.

Michael


I don't get it Michael.

We are (almost) in recession and budgets are cutted, even for major TV prods.  The Sony 3K also shoots 1920X1280 HD at 1/3 the cost.

And the one who has a Scarlet can always shoot at this reso with room to crop.

It's not that this camera is to be compared to a dslr and the Red to a MF IMO, it's that it falls nowhere. It's in between. Not cheap enough, not powerfull enough, not better designed than the Red, probably no better IQ than what Pana and Sony are currently doing in their video line for much less money, less convergent than Red...

And your keyline (I copy-paste): except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.  That's super important.

Who's gona buy it apart of what can acheive marketing ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 07:40:11 AM by fredjeang » Logged
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