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Author Topic: Canon strikes back...  (Read 27545 times)
Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 07:39:32 AM »
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RECODE is REDCODE, for all RED cameras. Same difference. It's their raw video software.

What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.

Scarlet-X is simply an EPIC with lower maximum data rates. Everything else about it otherwise is identical to the EPIC. In other words a 4K motion picture camera that can also shoot 14MP stills at 12FPS.

Dynamic range, raw, etc are all the same as what Hollywood and others have been shooting major motion pictures with, except now one can get it for under $15,000, fully operational except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.

These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.

Michael


There ain't any IQ180's though at less than the price of a DSLR and I'll bet that a lot of video people will be saying that just like most 5DII owners rarely need or use the full 21 megapixels but want it there for when they do, even if you are shooting just documentary or advertising or whatever, if it's cheaper, why not just get more?

I don't do video though so I don't know if we're talking about a big change in workflow, useability and post work needed, perhaps raw video is more of a problem than a solution for some or can you shoot the scarlet in plain HD mode?
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stevesanacore
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 07:53:32 AM »
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$20K - Canon is nuts.

a hard sell considering the Scarlet specs are better for the most part and almost half the price.


It's funny how many people are thinking the Canon at $20K is so expensive. Arri's Alexa starts at $60K and is fast becoming the industry standard with 1080P output. What matters is the image quality, it's not only the specs. The Canon is priced in line with the Sony F3 camera, which I believe has the same specs. That said, I AM a RED fan and I agree the RED Scarlet has a lot to offer with 4K raw at 15K for the kit. But there is a large market for 1080P cameras. I think Canon will do well with this camera against the Sony F3 and Alexa. IMO - It all depends on the IQ.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 08:38:16 AM »
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It's funny how many people are thinking the Canon at $20K is so expensive. Arri's Alexa starts at $60K and is fast becoming the industry standard with 1080P output. What matters is the image quality, it's not only the specs. The Canon is priced in line with the Sony F3 camera, which I believe has the same specs. That said, I AM a RED fan and I agree the RED Scarlet has a lot to offer with 4K raw at 15K for the kit. But there is a large market for 1080P cameras. I think Canon will do well with this camera against the Sony F3 and Alexa. IMO - It all depends on the IQ.

But precisely. The F3 is already embrassed by the industry, and the design of the Canon seems to be aimed to appeal to Red users. And that's where I don't get it. If you're a prod house that uses Sony, what will you make change the system for this Canon? And if you're tempted by Red, why would you buy this Canon?
I really think that this camera falls a little bit in a no-man's land.

In other words, does this camera has something the competition doesn't already have?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 08:39:58 AM by fredjeang » Logged
stevesanacore
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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2011, 10:28:47 AM »
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But precisely. The F3 is already embrassed by the industry, and the design of the Canon seems to be aimed to appeal to Red users. And that's where I don't get it. If you're a prod house that uses Sony, what will you make change the system for this Canon? And if you're tempted by Red, why would you buy this Canon?
I really think that this camera falls a little bit in a no-man's land.

In other words, does this camera has something the competition doesn't already have?

If it's RED users Canon was after - I think they will be disappointed, as the two cameras they announced don't come close. It still seems like the rest of the industry keeps ignoring RED and just keeps hoping they will go away :-)

Although, the Canon PL lenses may be a great move and of course Scarlet with a Canon EF mount is great for Canon too.




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RFPhotography
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« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2011, 10:51:23 AM »
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OK, clearly I'm missing something here.  Canon says this new camera is 4k with a 9MP sensor.  Michael says it's just a full HD 1080 camera.  What is it?
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michael
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« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2011, 11:17:09 AM »
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"It still seems like the rest of the industry keeps ignoring RED and just keeps hoping they will go away :-)"

They may ignore RED, but the reality the performance / price proposition offered by Scarlet-X totally unsettles the equation.

Most commercial and feature productions are shot with rented equipment. Visit a rental house in any major city in the world and see what they have available. RED Ones, RED Epics, Ari Alexas and some Sony S3s.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a year from now Canon will have had little penetration of C300s at production rental shops. Sure, independent documentary producers will buy some, but the Scarlet is simply a better financial proposition for someone that wants to own rather then rent. And, then, when it's time to rent a second unit for a major production, just guess what will be more readily available.

The low end will shoot with 5D MKIIs, as they have been.  Those shooting high-end commercials, music videos, and feature films will shoot with Alexas, EPICs and now Scarlets.

Where the C300 fits in at close to $20,000 eludes me.

Michael
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 11:45:59 AM »
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"Canon Cinema EOS C300 has a Super35 CMOS ... sensor's native resolution of 3840×2160 (which is exactly double that of 1080P’s 1920×1080 resolution) isn’t a “traditional” 4K, and the camera outputs at 1080P. It reportedly has 1920 x 1080 pixels for red and blue, and 1920 x 2160 pixels for green." from another site.

Essentially the camera bins every 4 pixel square for one output pixel to create full HD. Perhaps future in-camera processing will permit full sensor output.


Got it.  I misread their presser.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2011, 12:13:17 PM »
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Where the C300 fits in at close to $20,000 eludes me.


One place it might fit in is people shooting a lot of 1080p for money

I have a 'feeling' that the camera will turn on and shoot, not drop frames or overheat and there will be fast service in your locale

An example .. I shoot a nikon D3 for stills - on paper (MP/$) Its a poor performer - but I know its a wonderful camera

I would buy an 'overpriced' large chip camera if it had great ergonomics, a superb lanc controller, including focus roll and zoom check focus, an 18-80 lens (2kg max) build in ND and a bunch of other stuff that made it work.. maybe AF

I only see half of that lot on the canon though

SamMM

« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 12:16:38 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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bcooter
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2011, 12:17:18 PM »
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snip......
a year from now Canon will have had little penetration of C300s at production rental shops. Sure, independent documentary producers will buy some, but ........snip


I'll think Canon shot themselves in the foot with the 5d2.  I mean who is going to buy anything from Canon that costs over $3,000 knowing the 5d3 will eventually be out?

They're sure not going to pay 20 grand for a 2k video camera or 40 grand for a lens.

The Canon crowd shoots with a 5d2 and even with stills why spend $7,000 when you know the $3,000 better camera is coming at you?

But $20,000.  When I saw the first pics I thought ok, they've build a Sony AF100 competitor and I thought it would be like $3,500  bucks or something like that, but 20 large.

No.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2011, 12:21:11 PM »
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"It still seems like the rest of the industry keeps ignoring RED and just keeps hoping they will go away :-)"

They may ignore RED, but the reality the performance / price proposition offered by Scarlet-X totally unsettles the equation.

Most commercial and feature productions are shot with rented equipment. Visit a rental house in any major city in the world and see what they have available. RED Ones, RED Epics, Ari Alexas and some Sony S3s.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a year from now Canon will have had little penetration of C300s at production rental shops. Sure, independent documentary producers will buy some, but the Scarlet is simply a better financial proposition for someone that wants to own rather then rent. And, then, when it's time to rent a second unit for a major production, just guess what will be more readily available.

The low end will shoot with 5D MKIIs, as they have been.  Those shooting high-end commercials, music videos, and feature films will shoot with Alexas, EPICs and now Scarlets.

Where the C300 fits in at close to $20,000 eludes me.

Michael


I agree with your analysis.

Ps: the 5D2 wasn't only used by the low end. The most famous spanish cineast has shooted some takes with it, when he wanted some special angles on real set and the Canon was the only camera possible because of its size. Now with the reduced Red, probably the 5D will totally disappear at those levels.
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BJL
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2011, 01:58:46 PM »
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"Canon Cinema EOS C300 has a Super35 CMOS ... sensor's native resolution of 3840×2160 (which is exactly double that of 1080P’s 1920×1080 resolution) isn’t a “traditional” 4K, and the camera outputs at 1080P. It reportedly has 1920 x 1080 pixels for red and blue, and 1920 x 2160 pixels for green." from another site.

Essentially the camera bins every 4 pixel square for one output pixel to create full HD. Perhaps future in-camera processing will permit full sensor output.
Thanks for putting the numbers on the table!

Canon (like Sony) is suffering a bit in forum debates over resolution, by describing its video sensor resolution in the traditional video way of counting pixels that have full RGB information, while RED is using the "digital still camera" style of counting each single-color photosite in its Bayer CFA sensors. So in truth, the Scarlet-X's "4K" is very close to Canon's "1080p" in final video resolution.  Sony's 1080p digital cine-cameras are close too, though I believe Sony's higher level cine-camera sensors have each HD format output pixel coming from a different arrangement of photosites, arranged something like
RGB
RGB
with vertical binning in each color.

The resolution differences will be particularly small in the final digital projection in cinemas, which for now is likely to be done with a [Sony] 2K projector, and 2K with all three colors at each pixel is enough for what  these sensors are offering, until you get to RED's more expensive models with "5K" video output.


P. S. The "video DSLR" than Canon hinted at, with 36x24mm sensor for stills but with its video output using a 20% width crop of that for its 4K output, seems to have a pixel count that fits the EOS-1Dx specs. So maybe it will use the same basic sensor, with different output wiring and processing. Maybe keeping the pixel count at a level that works well for 4K video output (or aggregating into 1920x1080 full color pixels) was a design constraint for this latest Canon 36x24mm sensor.
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Tim Jones
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2011, 02:28:34 PM »
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 Well i have been waiting to see how this would work out for a long time.

  I thought the canon annoucement was underwhelming . No 60 fps at 1080 ? No autofocus ? 

Cheap looking plastic body covered with buttons ?

 I think the new cine lenses look great though. But, the price seems completely out of line .

  6000.00 for a prime?

I think Red understands the market much more than canon. The still/motion era is here.

For me, there's only one way and that's red .
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pschefz
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2011, 03:09:58 PM »
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after thinking about all this a bit, the canon makes some sense...

the only reason to go with red (any of them) is the option of raw video, which provides still shooters (like most people here) in a commercial/advertising/fashion field with raw still frames of the video footage shot....like cooter says, scrub through the footage and pick a frame...makes a lot of sense for some of us....

the c300 goes in a different direction....most TV, movie, documentary, tv commercial,...production could not care less about raw or still frames....they want super clean, higher iso (keeps production costs down), maybe 60 or 120fps...all in great looking HD....that is why most DPs LOOOOOVE the alexa....when you are shooting with 4 people hovering around the camera it really does not matter how much the camera rents for....

i think the c300 goes right up against the alexa....no AF, super clean, sharp HD with accurate color....at a very reasonable price...the only issue might be the frame rate...

the scarlet is somewhere completely different, it does many more things and probably/maybe, in the end since it all ends up in HD anyway, the c300 (or alexa ) footage looks better....maybe...

the one thing about the scarlet is that in order to get the full size of the sensor it has to be shot at 5k which only does 12fps....at 4k it is already cropping into the sensor, at 2k 60fps we are looking at a 16mm camera.....something to consider....

so in order to really use the sensor, get video (not 12fps) and to get the raw stills the ad wants, 4k 30fps is the only want to shoot the scarlet....which eats up storage...

laforet mentioned that they shot the entire film with 2 c300 on a 500gb hard drive....that is also something to consider....

in the end there still is no perfect camera for all....i am still not sure canon priced the c300 right...but i would not have bought it for half of the price...for me the raw frames make the red the only game in town....and for someone lusting after the alexa the c300 might deliver at less then a 3rd of the price....

one thing is for sure....canon is in this for the long haul and they are selling enough other stuff to keep this little project alive for a long time....
and as soon as they figure out a way to pull 24 shots/sec raw off a dslr sensor red is toast....the 1dx does 18fps? (on a 35mm sensor) that is 50% more then the scarlet at 5k.....
i don't see why the announced/unannounced c-dslr should not do 24fps on a smaller sensor....

the one thing that blows my mind is that the same week hasselblad announces their new body without sensor, same look, no new features...for 7000$...who buys this stuff anymore?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2011, 03:19:22 PM »
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It's a good and interesting argumentation Paul.

I think that you're also right in the points you developped.

Yeah, I think they may take Arri clients more than Red.

And about DPs and the alexa...yes, DPs are impressed by anything that make the set looks like an hollywood plateau and they know Arri is cine. Take those DPs on a blind test with an Hacked GH2 and I'd like to see the reactions.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 03:25:09 PM by fredjeang » Logged
Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2011, 03:25:48 PM »
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Yes Tim  -  the still /motion era is here.

I just wonder why this erupts such negative comments - did you all take a look at the  http://www.canoncinemaeos.com/media-gallery.php    ?
especially the "making of "  is giving a lot of answers,  which are mostly "refinement in detail".
And yes,  I think this is pointed towards the Alexa. which triples the price at 60k  - so actually this 20k is a bargain !
If the High Iso´s work as described this WILL keep production costs down, available light highend "Pro Filmmaking" - ......on video.

Very, very clever............

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Stefan
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Tim Jones
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2011, 03:49:08 PM »
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Why can Red make the scarlet auto focus with canon EF lenses, but canon can't ?? I don't get it.   
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bcooter
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2011, 04:34:05 PM »
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Yes Tim  -  the still /motion era is here.
 . . . snip

Stefan

I can tell you why.

You answered it in your first sentence.

Canon Hyped this thing like the second coming and in reality showed up with a 2k video camera that has lots of little buttons that isn't gonna make any kind of still image.

It may be good, it may be great, but I don't think anyone with the production money of the Alexa is gonna really care if they save $600 a day on rentals, not at that stage.

You know,  I guess some people will buy it, some will rent it, probably more will try it, personally I don't care, but it sure looks to me like Canon is trying to cover market territory and keep stills and video in separate rooms.

IMO

BC
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2011, 04:46:34 PM »
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>>>>>>but it sure looks to me like Canon is trying to cover market territory and keep stills and video in separate rooms.>>>>>

absolutely, with this 300C camera.

But then there is this other announcement of the DSLR Type 4k which should give RED the headache.
because this one will be in the Scarlett X range and Taking pictures (with 18 mpix and autofocus) .......

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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pschefz
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2011, 05:44:27 PM »
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the alexa is a 2k camera and hollywood loves it...and hollywood could not care less about stills...

but you are absolutely correct, the deciding factor between alexa and c300 in actual production will not be price....it will be the image on the screen.....and i guess the c300 delivers? DR?

someone sued about AF....ask anyone even close to a camera on a production set in LA what they think about AF...i guess that is what canon did....and left it out to make the "purists" happy....
in all honesty: AF and film making is tricky....and there are a lot of focus pullers in LA....

strage as it seems, the c300 is not made for wedding shooters....
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billy
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2011, 07:24:56 PM »
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do any of these new cameras ( scarlet or canon ) have a built in ND filter?
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