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Author Topic: RED for dummies  (Read 3743 times)
mtomalty
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« on: November 04, 2011, 11:30:23 AM »
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Hard not to get swept up in the current Red/Scarlet hype.

How 'bout a base thread for  potential newbies such as myself outlining requirements,etc to get rolling

First query would be what is actually required to establish a base set up to be up and running

My Take.

Scarlet-X  w/TI Canon mount/Side SSD    $11,250
Red Station Red Mag 1.8                        $ 250
128 GB SSD mag                                  $1800
Red Touch 5" LCD                                 $1600
DSMC Side Handle                                $  950
Red Volt AC power                                $ 195
Red Brick   each @ $450  x 2                  $900


Is Red Rocket a requirement or an
optional performance enhancer?             $4750

Is this a pretty accurate assessment for base needs? Have I duplicated anything unnecessarily?
Have I missed any required elements?  Have to assume i've missed cables,etc but can't really say.


Mark
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bcooter
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 12:04:32 PM »
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Hard not to get swept up in the current Red/Scarlet hype.

How 'bout a base thread for  potential newbies such as myself outlining requirements,etc to get rolling

First query would be what is actually required to establish a base set up to be up and running

My Take.

Scarlet-X  w/TI Canon mount/Side SSD    $11,250
Red Station Red Mag 1.8                        $ 250
128 GB SSD mag                                  $1800
Red Touch 5" LCD                                 $1600
DSMC Side Handle                                $  950
Red Volt AC power                                $ 195
Red Brick   each @ $450  x 2                  $900


Is Red Rocket a requirement or an
optional performance enhancer?             $4750

Is this a pretty accurate assessment for base needs? Have I duplicated anything unnecessarily?
Have I missed any required elements?  Have to assume i've missed cables,etc but can't really say.


Mark

Your good, except your gonna need double the ssd cards, double the batteries and the RED Rocket is mandatory unless you want to spend 30 hours grading 30 minutes.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 12:22:53 PM »
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Has somebody tried the Zacuto EVF on Red ?
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mtomalty
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 12:26:12 PM »
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Thanks BC

That bottom line kinda creeps up on one, then Smiley


Couple of other questions to throw out there

1-How much space does a 30 sec clip typically occupy?
2-When excerpting a frame for stills use, I assume, one must remain in the RED workspace and export as a Tiff
3-Again for a stills application.  If a situation calls for shutter speeds of longer than 1/30, for example, is this an option?
4-Are timelapse sequences an option within the RED camera family?

Mark
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bcooter
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 12:32:24 PM »
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Thanks BC

That bottom line kinda creeps up on one, then Smiley


Couple of other questions to throw out there

1-How much space does a 30 sec clip typically occupy?
2-When excerpting a frame for stills use, I assume, one must remain in the RED workspace and export as a Tiff
3-Again for a stills application.  If a situation calls for shutter speeds of longer than 1/30, for example, is this an option?
4-Are timelapse sequences an option within the RED camera family?

Mark

All I know is the RED One, but 1. a 16 gig cf card fills up in 4 minutes, I don't know how long our SSD's take, I just go shit, the thing is almost full.

2.  Yes

3.  We nearly always shoot at 30p (that way all the edit and type is smooth, no stuttering and if I want to go to 24 you can always pull down, but you can't pull up) and I shoot at 100th of a second shutter, though everyone says it will strobe, It's always been smooth and the stills are sharp.  You can go to 1/15th of a second I think on the RED ONE, on the other cameras I don't know.

4.  The RED One does timelapse (we use it all the time for backgrounds and to set the scene) the other, I don't know.


IMO

BC
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mtomalty
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 12:56:26 PM »
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Thanks BC

In ten minutes, you've provided me with a far more accurate picture of the system than
three hours of wrestling through the reduser forum

Another question, and not particularly directed at you.

Are there any unexpected limitations shooting tilt-shift and macro lenses (near life size) on the RED platform?


Mark
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bcooter
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 01:23:17 PM »
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Thanks BC

In ten minutes, you've provided me with a far more accurate picture of the system than
three hours of wrestling through the reduser forum

Another question, and not particularly directed at you.

Are there any unexpected limitations shooting tilt-shift and macro lenses (near life size) on the RED platform?


Mark



Be aware that just like with still digital cameras there is no free lunch.

Moving from still to motion or both is a different animal.

First it's the camera and all of them from the 5d2 to the Epic or even the crazy assed priced Alexa are good, some better, some more features, some large, some small, some you'd only rent (Alexa) some you'd only buy 5d2 or the new Scarlet.

But once you open that door, you gotta add rails, matte boxes, mounts, arms, heads, sticks, broadcast monitors and you have to be careful because you can drop 10 to 20 grand on "stuff" before you even blink.

Then there is continuous lights and there is no deal on continuous lights.  HMI's like the Kobalt Bron are 24 grand for a three light kit and not a lot of watts and when you go to Arri's even 1.2 ks cost a lot, then you gotta have the power to run them and a 1.2 hovers around 15 amps so be prepared to blow some circuits or buy a truck load of generators.

Then we go to sound.  I don't care what you shoot, someday your going to have to do sound and don't even dream of thinking you'll be a great sound tech just because you can read some sound bars.  We've had sound guys from around the world, from amazingly good, to amazingly bad and bad means non usable or going back and luping. 

We have a bunch of sound kits, but we never use them, I just hire sound techs and let them work it out and then even with a good tech, every edit you do, if the locations change are going to require sound sweetening at the end.  You may do some of it yourself, but your gonna need a good sound house.

And now the monster in the closet, post production.  Editing is a black hole of time.  It's nothing to spend 300 hours on a professional 6 minute video.  Yea you can get it easier, do it simple, but with the world of graphics, fast paced multi media, get ready to start interviewing editors.  Good editors.

But I went off topic.

I guess you can use a tilt shift on the RED, I've never done it, but you can use Macro.  The Red file holds up amazingly well, regardless of the BS you hear about compression or not really a raw.  It's still a digital file, but if you shoot any other form of motion camera (at least the ones I use), they all look like video to me except for the RED.  The RED file looks like motion cinema film.

My RED's top out at 1000 iso and you gotta watch the blue channel, but other than that it's an amazing file.

Oh yea, buy some ND filters.

IMO

BC
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Robert Moore
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 01:40:47 PM »
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Has somebody tried the Zacuto EVF on Red ?

Fred,

Works fine on my R1...medium length boom arm off the top handle....menus and format masks seem a bit wonky but
otherwise it is a good small solution for formatting and shooting in the field ( which is all I do. ) The Wildflower video
on my site was done with ZF 35 1.4 ND Variable filter and the Z-EVF. The one button zoom on the EVF is nice for focus,
remember to return to normal view as you lose all information in the EVF.

Bob
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Robert Moore
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 01:48:29 PM »
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The Red file holds up amazingly well, regardless of the BS you hear about compression or not really a raw.  It's still a digital file, but if you shoot any other form of motion camera (at least the ones I use), they all look like video to me except for the RED.  The RED file looks like motion cinema film.
IMO

BC


It was just this comment a while back that sent me down the RED path.....

Mark, the above referenced clip is here:

http://robertemoorephoto.com/p645748420/hbc1ec06#hbc1ec06

Color and range remind me of the M8...not a bad thing.

By the way my camera has 800 rental hours on it and looks like it was drug behind a Volvo to
a barn dance...The cameras really seem bulletproof...think old M series rangefinders or F3 Nikons.

Bob
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fredjeang
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 02:27:48 PM »
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Fred,

Works fine on my R1...medium length boom arm off the top handle....menus and format masks seem a bit wonky but
otherwise it is a good small solution for formatting and shooting in the field ( which is all I do. ) The Wildflower video
on my site was done with ZF 35 1.4 ND Variable filter and the Z-EVF. The one button zoom on the EVF is nice for focus,
remember to return to normal view as you lose all information in the EVF.

Bob
Thanks Bob.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 02:39:32 PM »
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Be aware that just like with still digital cameras there is no free lunch.

Moving from still to motion or both is a different animal.

First it's the camera and all of them from the 5d2 to the Epic or even the crazy assed priced Alexa are good, some better, some more features, some large, some small, some you'd only rent (Alexa) some you'd only buy 5d2 or the new Scarlet.

But once you open that door, you gotta add rails, matte boxes, mounts, arms, heads, sticks, broadcast monitors and you have to be careful because you can drop 10 to 20 grand on "stuff" before you even blink.

Then there is continuous lights and there is no deal on continuous lights.  HMI's like the Kobalt Bron are 24 grand for a three light kit and not a lot of watts and when you go to Arri's even 1.2 ks cost a lot, then you gotta have the power to run them and a 1.2 hovers around 15 amps so be prepared to blow some circuits or buy a truck load of generators.

Then we go to sound.  I don't care what you shoot, someday your going to have to do sound and don't even dream of thinking you'll be a great sound tech just because you can read some sound bars.  We've had sound guys from around the world, from amazingly good, to amazingly bad and bad means non usable or going back and luping.  

We have a bunch of sound kits, but we never use them, I just hire sound techs and let them work it out and then even with a good tech, every edit you do, if the locations change are going to require sound sweetening at the end.  You may do some of it yourself, but your gonna need a good sound house.

And now the monster in the closet, post production.  Editing is a black hole of time.  It's nothing to spend 300 hours on a professional 6 minute video.  Yea you can get it easier, do it simple, but with the world of graphics, fast paced multi media, get ready to start interviewing editors.  Good editors.

But I went off topic.

I guess you can use a tilt shift on the RED, I've never done it, but you can use Macro.  The Red file holds up amazingly well, regardless of the BS you hear about compression or not really a raw.  It's still a digital file, but if you shoot any other form of motion camera (at least the ones I use), they all look like video to me except for the RED.  The RED file looks like motion cinema film.

My RED's top out at 1000 iso and you gotta watch the blue channel, but other than that it's an amazing file.

Oh yea, buy some ND filters.

IMO

BC


Tell me about those ND filters ! They drive me mad. If there are things that I hate to bring on set are those kind of objects.

But supporting BC post for Mark: yes, be aware of the door you're going to open...

I agree that PP is the massive black-hole, is the Quasar of motion.

I started to edit motion regularly about something like 6 or so months ago and I'm surrownded by professionals I can call or ask for advice when I see them.
And it's a complete mess. And progress are slow but regulars. In 6 months I have just scratched the surface, and beleive me, I spend a lot of hours on it.

And, oh yeah...I'm not married nor have childrens. I have a couple of girlfriends that I see from time to time when we want to have fun, (since motion, I hardly see those women), so a lot of free time.
Despite that, it's serious from A to Z.

Once you think you got it, once you think you solved a crucial question, another araises. A late example: I was happy because I learned quite well one of the Nuke keyer with good results.
Then, in a delicate footage, I couldn't make it work properly. Then, a Nuke guru told me: oh yeah, but in this case you have to use those 2 keyers combined, bla bla...and another one more to learn!
It never bloody stops.

Editing basicaly is not that much of a big deal, but as soon as you want to makes steps...you open the Pandora box.

You have to be aware that you'll have to do a lot of sacrifices in time, energy and training if you want to earn money with it, or simply do very good movies.

Building your workflow will take time, nothing to do with still.

Then, I've been loosing an incredible amount of time in the internet for information, and there are so much that it's very difficult to
see what's reliable and what is less. Internet is another black hole in terms of time. That's why I'm trying to centralized as much as I can
threads in Lu-La because being on 10 forums is not something I particularly enjoy. Although I know that Lu-La is not motion specialized,
and therefore still a bit in its infancy, there will be more and more people involved and the motion forum will work for sure, although we'll still have to be in
places like Creative Cow, FXphd etc...

Then, manipulating steadycams for ex is not that you buy it and you're ready, no. Eveything takes time. Everything.

Then, as BC pointed, the sound neutron star...it's okay to be able to do your sound. I'm doing it...for my indy stuff. Now, on an assignement where everything has to work
and where time costs money, forget it. Don't loose your time with sound and hire a tech.

It is zillion time more complicated than stills, but...it is zillion time more complete and exiting.




 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 04:34:21 PM by fredjeang » Logged
mtomalty
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 01:43:02 AM »
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Thx BC and Fred for your additional thoughts on workflow and post.
I do realize that's going to be a long slog but that's a battle for another day.

First order of business is to sort out the respective hardware plus's and minus's


Mark
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mtomalty
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2011, 01:57:49 AM »
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Now we're getting somewhere!

http://photorumors.com/2011/11/03/lomokino-super-8-movie-maker/
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bcooter
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2011, 05:36:18 AM »
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Thx BC and Fred for your additional thoughts on workflow and post.
I do realize that's going to be a long slog but that's a battle for another day.

First order of business is to sort out the respective hardware plus's and minus's


Mark

Mark,

Don't let the idea of motion and post production overwhelm you, but do learn enough about editing to have a grasp on what you deliver has to been assembled into an interesting story.

Even if that story is mostly graphics and vignettes, if you learn about editing you know rule #1 is you never have enough footage.

You'll also be able to convey to the client and anyone you outsource to exactly what you want you expect.


IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2011, 06:12:32 AM »
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Exactly.

If I can transmit from experience some mistakes I've done before, so a newcomer can avoid them, is this: I've been too fast. When I started to learn, I had some pressure but also I falled in the trap to do many learning curves at the same time and I ended completly overwhelmed.

This happened because I was doing some assignements with pros, and I was feeling unconfident about my lack of training in motion. They where talking about things I didn't catch-up. So I started to feel that I had to fill the gap as fast as possible. That was the worst thing to do.

I wanted to master some techniques, pros take years to master, in a few months...that's not working. The result is this: I ended to know quite a lot of pp aspects but mostly on the surface. At the same time, doing this, I've abandoned in fact what was the most important: the story.
I was so busy in software learning that the stories went on second priority. It's backward. Now I've changed that because I realised it, but it cost time and energy badly used.

In fact, with a good NLE and a good grading software you're done.

In other words, do not put your self too much pressure. You know there's a lot to know but as BC pointed, the key is the first sentence.

It's a monster, but nothing that can't be done.  

Yeah, don't let motion overwhelm you. Put priorities and stick with them, and stick with a system you feel comfortable with and avoid unecessary fatigue. Kown to stop and shut-down the workstation and have a life. If you're stucked into softwares and tech goals, you'll have nothing to tell.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 06:46:34 AM by fredjeang » Logged
ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 10:43:18 AM »
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Randomness:

Get this for figuring out how much Media you need...  http://katabatic.tv/katadata/  An Awesome little App with tons of variables.

The Epic doesn't have a  TimeLapse mode yet like the R1 does.  You can set your FPS as low as 1 right now and the shutter as low as 1 second.  The camera doesn't like long shutters as much as still cameras and the noise level goes up.

The noise level at higher ISO's is pretty damn decent, though.  You certainly get some at 2000 but, at least for me, it feels more like film grain than digital noise.  Here's a little grab from this morning.  ISO 2000.



Oh and with the new beta Firmware... the Zacuto VF works even better on the Epic than it does on the R1




You might wanna skip the Bricks and go with RedVolts and an AC adapter.  The smaller batteries are great for lightweight setups, jib work, run and gun etc but you only get about 25 minutes out of one, about long enough to fill a 64gb SSD at FF 5k.  I prefer to use the AC adapter if I'm anywhere near AC.

As James mentioned, the kit price is only the tip of the iceberg if you really want to do motion.  I think I've spent 150k on motion gear in the last 12 months.  There are so many little odds and ends and they're all pricey.  Spare LCD cable?  200 bucks!

My Canon mount should arrive soon *praying*.  Once it does, I'll post some samples from the 17mm and 24mm TS-E's.

Cheers,
CB
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:46:04 AM by CBarrett » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2011, 04:42:00 PM »
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Talking about 2000 isos

GH2 2000 isos.

From my painting studio tonight.

Ex tele mode enabled.

Cine 24p.

52mm modified vintage russian Jupiter 2.8 M39 mount (30 euros in e-bay)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 04:11:00 AM by fredjeang » Logged
vduault
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2011, 08:08:33 AM »
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 >fredjeang

As a newcomer to motion I realise the vital thing is to collaborate with other people, to avoid getting stuck with the tools...share the work and bring together the talents, I think it is the only way to progress decently in motion for an individualist photographers like me...
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Mr. Rib
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2011, 09:53:45 AM »
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What I learned and realised the hard way as a fine art multimedia faculty student is that motion is a team oriented game. You won't deliver brilliant results if you do it alone, there's simply no way to get a grasp of every aspect of the production,  this world became far too 'specialized' to do so. Kind of obvious and off-topic, sorry bout that.
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