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Author Topic: Colormatching widegamut and srgb monitor  (Read 4982 times)
alex_123
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« on: November 28, 2011, 02:45:48 PM »
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I have two EIZO monitors - widegamut SX2462W and EV2333(SRGB). I have found document about color matching widegamut and srgb on eizo site  http://www.eizo.com/na/support/wp/pdf/wp_08-002.pdf

The problem is that measurment devices can't make the same white point. Wide gamut has green color cast even after calibration and srgb monitor has red color cast. In this document they use coloredge monitors with software that can provide colormatching. But I have flexscan  monitors and easy pix software can't do this. Does anybody know how to match whitepoints on two monitors?
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Czornyj
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 03:37:27 PM »
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What sensor+software do you have?
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alex_123
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 02:29:18 PM »
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I have easy pix sensor and also colormunki sensor.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 08:40:59 PM »
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The problem is that measurment devices can't make the same white point.

I wouldn’t expect two vastly different type displays to match with the same settings. You’ll have to calibrate one to match your output as best as possible, then futz around with the other, adjusting it’s WP to produce a visual match. IOW, the settings will very likely be quite different but the key is that visual match.
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Andrew Rodney
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Schewe
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 10:30:06 PM »
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Does anybody know how to match whitepoints on two monitors?

Yeah...get matching video cards and matching displays.

Any sort of "calibration" and profiling between two fundamentally different displays is a fool's errand. Seriously...I've been using multiple displays for almost 20 years and I can tell you the ONLY way to use multiple displays and have them match closely is by have 2 or more of the EXACT SAME DISPLAY and connected to the same video card (or multiple cards that are the same).

Failing that, you're gonna have to do what Andrew suggest, critically calibrate and profile the "best" display and use that for evaluating images and use the second display for palettes where the critical match is not important.
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alex_123
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 11:00:33 AM »
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And what about EIZO coloredge matching solution? Do you try it, is it a good solution?
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shewhorn
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 11:37:37 PM »
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Yeah...get matching video cards and matching displays.

The card shouldn't make any difference at all unless VGA or DVI-A is being used. DVI-D (which is just about everything now), DisplayPort, and Thunderbolt are all digital signals and the digital to analog conversion happens inside the monitor. As such the video card plays no role in the equation.

Cheers, Joe
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Schewe
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 12:01:21 PM »
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The card shouldn't make any difference at all unless VGA or DVI-A is being used. DVI-D (which is just about everything now), DisplayPort, and Thunderbolt are all digital signals and the digital to analog conversion happens inside the monitor. As such the video card plays no role in the equation.

Actually, if you want to avoid Open GL problems in Photoshop CS4 or CS5, you DO want to match video cards...neither OS X nor Win are very good at allowing Open GL optimizations when mixed video cards are present in a machine.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 03:02:38 PM »
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Actually, if you want to avoid Open GL problems in Photoshop CS4 or CS5, you DO want to match video cards...neither OS X nor Win are very good at allowing Open GL optimizations when mixed video cards are present in a machine.

You always want matched video card in the SAME machine. We're not talking about the same machine and thus the card makes no difference at all. Aside from that, considering how buggy Adobe's implementation of dual monitors running off of the same video card (not matching cards, but physically the same card with two spigots), I wouldn't trust the color on a single system running 3 or more screens as it's unlikely Adobe would have even alpha tested such a configuration.

Cheers, Joe
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Schewe
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 03:38:00 PM »
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You always want matched video card in the SAME machine. We're not talking about the same machine and thus the card makes no difference at all. Aside from that, considering how buggy Adobe's implementation of dual monitors running off of the same video card (not matching cards, but physically the same card with two spigots), I wouldn't trust the color on a single system running 3 or more screens as it's unlikely Adobe would have even alpha tested such a configuration.

The way I read the OP was that it was two displays on one machine...which is why I suggested matching displays and video cards. And I have a system with 3 displays running from two matching cards on Mac and all three are properly color managed using SpectraView. And yes, all 3 displays are matching phosphors; 2 3090WQX1 and 1 2690WIX1. And Adobe does test color management on multiple displays-easy to support on Mac, a bit tougher to implement on Windows (but it can work).
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2011, 04:16:52 PM »
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Yeah...get matching video cards and matching displays.

Any sort of "calibration" and profiling between two fundamentally different displays is a fool's errand. Seriously...I've been using multiple displays for almost 20 years and I can tell you the ONLY way to use multiple displays and have them match closely is by have 2 or more of the EXACT SAME DISPLAY and connected to the same video card (or multiple cards that are the same).

Failing that, you're gonna have to do what Andrew suggest, critically calibrate and profile the "best" display and use that for evaluating images and use the second display for palettes where the critical match is not important.
a.  I wish it were that easy.

b.  I think the term "closely" is key.   If you wouldn't mind, would you share your techniques for matching the white point of two exactly same monitors (LCD2690uxi2's) using DVD outputs of the same video card (ATI 5970 dual GPU) using the provided DVD cables from NEC and the latest version of SVII (Win7 x64)?

I can do this following the directions in the SVII manual for any color mode BUT sRGB emulation and would dearly like to do it using sRGB.

I went to great lengths to buy sequential serial number monitors which didn't seem to make a difference, in fact after NEC replaced a defective monitor with a refurb I got closer with the refurb.

Any tips and/or tricks (even if it's to trick your mind into thinking your seeing the same on both monitors) would be appreciated.
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 04:27:55 PM »
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b.  I think the term "closely" is key.   If you wouldn't mind, would you share your techniques for matching the white point of two exactly same monitors (LCD2690uxi2's) using DVD outputs of the same video card (ATI 5970 dual GPU) using the provided DVD cables from NEC and the latest version of SVII (Win7 x64)?

Does that video card allow for different LUTs per output port?

I think the problem is trying to match a specific target whitepoint/gamma with the native wide gamut phosphors vs matching sRGB and wide gamut which is something I've not tried to do. I wouldn't run a wide gamut in an sRGB mode.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 04:55:30 PM »
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Does that video card allow for different LUTs per output port?

I think the problem is trying to match a specific target whitepoint/gamma with the native wide gamut phosphors vs matching sRGB and wide gamut which is something I've not tried to do. I wouldn't run a wide gamut in an sRGB mode.

a.  Yes.  It's a dual GPU, dual LUT card.  But if using SVII and LCD2690's you'd be using the internal LUT's ?

b.  I agree.  The monitors are set up with an sRGB emulation mode which clamps down on the sRGB gamut quite nicely and solves all my web image issues.  However, in sRGB emulation the white point is locked, you can only vary luminance. 
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shewhorn
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 11:19:39 AM »
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The way I read the OP was that it was two displays on one machine...which is why I suggested matching displays and video cards.

I don't know anyone who runs dual cards these days. Dual spigot cards that support dual link are plentiful, cheap, and offer much better integration than dual cards. You also really need to go out of your way to find a card that doesn't have discrete video LUTs.

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And I have a system with 3 displays running from two matching cards on Mac and all three are properly color managed using SpectraView. And yes, all 3 displays are matching phosphors; 2 3090WQX1 and 1 2690WIX1. And Adobe does test color management on multiple displays-easy to support on Mac, a bit tougher to implement on Windows (but it can work).

Good to know, although I actually find that a bit surprising seeing as how buggy their OpenGL implementation has been with just two monitors. Most of my production is with OS X however I have to say, in terms of color management I find Windows to be the more stable platform. ColorSync seemed to just get progressively worse starting with Tiger. Half way through Snow Leopard though things fortunately seem to be getting better.

Cheers, Joe
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alex_123
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 02:47:21 PM »
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So you think there is no way to make the same white points on two different monitors using colorimeter?
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shewhorn
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 07:09:28 PM »
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So you think there is no way to make the same white points on two different monitors using colorimeter?

Unlikely, although it depends upon what your tolerance is for "good enough". That's a subjective call that varies from person to person but objectively speaking... no, you're not likely to get two different monitors to match. Even if you had two of the SAME monitors and one of them was new, and the other was 2.5 years old, you still might have difficulty getting them to match because the characteristics of the backlight will change over time. The older backlight will have a different spectral power distribution than the newer one. Andrew's (digitaldog) suggestion is your best bet. Calibrate and profile one to match printed output as best as possible, and then visually adjust the white point of the 2nd screen to get as close as possible.

I would suggest downloading a trial of Color Eyes Display Pro. It has the facilities to do visual matching between monitors. I'd suggest measuring the white point of your primary monitor (after it's been profiled and calibrated) and then using that as the basis for your 2nd monitor. If that doesn't get you where you want to go you can attempt a visual match with CEDP.

Cheers, Joe

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Marlyn
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 07:53:23 PM »
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I don't know anyone who runs dual cards these days. Dual spigot cards that support dual link are plentiful, cheap, and offer much better integration than dual cards. You also really need to go out of your way to find a card that doesn't have discrete video LUTs.

Cheers, Joe

I do, to run more than 2 monitors.

New PC will be the same, cept using a pair of Quadro 4000's.

2x 30" displays
1 x 24"
1 x CINTIQ Tablet

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shewhorn
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2011, 03:50:46 AM »
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I do, to run more than 2 monitors.

The intent of that statement was directed towards running one card per monitor. I don't know anyone who does that. People with dual monitor configurations are running a single dual spigot card (as you are in your system, with a second card to handle the 3rd monitor).

Cheers, Joe
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alex_123
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2011, 02:37:27 PM »
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I'd suggest measuring the white point of your primary monitor (after it's been profiled and calibrated) and then using that as the basis for your 2nd monitor.
The main problem is that white point 6500 or any other on wide gamut and standart(srgb) gamut monitors will be visually different. So if I put this input parameter in any calibration software there is no way to make the same white point. It is written in the document which I mentioned in my first post. Eizo offers the solution but only for coloredge series(don't really know how accurate this method) but as I understand from all your answers there is only visual method to make white point on srgb and wide gamut monitor the same.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2011, 05:22:17 PM »
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The main problem is that white point 6500 or any other on wide gamut and standart(srgb) gamut monitors will be visually different.

Yes, that's what I said ...

"no, you're not likely to get two different monitors to match. Even if you had two of the SAME monitors and one of them was new, and the other was 2.5 years old, you still might have difficulty getting them to match because the characteristics of the backlight will change over time. The older backlight will have a different spectral power distribution than the newer one"

Hence the reason you MEASURE (with a colorimeter or spectrophotometer) the color temp of the primary monitor after it's been profiled and calibrated and using that as a starting point. You will most likely need to make a visual tweak. You're talking about two monitors with massively different spectral power distributions.

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So if I put this input parameter in any calibration software

Again, you do not input the same number for both monitors. You profile and calibrate one, and then MEASURE the result and use that measurement as the basis for the white point of the second screen. Even then you may need to visually tweak the white point.

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there is no way to make the same white point. It is written in the document which I mentioned in my first post. Eizo offers the solution but only for coloredge series(don't really know how accurate this method) but as I understand from all your answers there is only visual method to make white point on srgb and wide gamut monitor the same.

That is your best bet. I skimmed over the Eizo article and page 6 describes the reason for what you're seeing (I think you have a pretty decent grasp on that).I have to read the article more closely but on a quick skim it looks like they're measuring the spectral power distribution of both monitors and compensating as best they can for those differences. I'm not sure how they'd accomplish this with a colorimeter as colorimeters can only measure RGB values. You need a spectrophotometer to take spectral measurements.

Cheers, Joe
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