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Author Topic: Hassy H4D vs Pentax 645D  (Read 17763 times)
db8121
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 07:39:39 AM »
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Thanks again for the responses guys. Very helpful.

A few more tidbits:
- Yes, I've budgeted out for lenses, spare batteries, etc so that's not an issue.

- Yes, I'm hearing that Nikon will introduce/unveil its next flagship early next year. I'm not in any sort of time crunch so I would probably wait to see what develops in January/Feb. I do, however, like the rendering of Kodak's CCD with no low-pass filter, which is why I prefer my M9s over the pro DSLRs. And in general, I greatly prefer the "look" of MF (micro detail, dynamic range, etc etc), even if I'm not printing big all the time.

- How a camera handles is very important to me. I know that's a very personal thing, but I like to hear what others think nonetheless.

Cheers,
Brian
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 07:52:44 AM »
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Hi,

There is little difference in CCD and CMOS. Both collect electrons. CCD has slightly larger area per pixel while CMOS may have much less read noise.

The difference in rendition is more likely to come from differences in CGA (Color Grid Array), color profiles and processing software.

AA-filters on DSLRs soften images a bit, but if you stop down beyond f/11 (or so) you probably soften as much.

Best regards
Erik


Thanks again for the responses guys. Very helpful.

A few more tidbits:
- Yes, I've budgeted out for lenses, spare batteries, etc so that's not an issue.

- Yes, I'm hearing that Nikon will introduce/unveil its next flagship early next year. I'm not in any sort of time crunch so I would probably wait to see what develops in January/Feb. I do, however, like the rendering of Kodak's CCD with no low-pass filter, which is why I prefer my M9s over the pro DSLRs. And in general, I greatly prefer the "look" of MF (micro detail, dynamic range, etc etc), even if I'm not printing big all the time.

- How a camera handles is very important to me. I know that's a very personal thing, but I like to hear what others think nonetheless.

Cheers,
Brian
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db8121
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2011, 08:16:12 AM »
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Good to know, thank you. (I'd rate my knowledge of the physics/EE side of things as slightly above address at best.)

Hi,

There is little difference in CCD and CMOS. Both collect electrons. CCD has slightly larger area per pixel while CMOS may have much less read noise.

The difference in rendition is more likely to come from differences in CGA (Color Grid Array), color profiles and processing software.

AA-filters on DSLRs soften images a bit, but if you stop down beyond f/11 (or so) you probably soften as much.

Best regards
Erik


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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2011, 08:40:59 AM »
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- How a camera handles is very important to me. I know that's a very personal thing, but I like to hear what others think nonetheless.

I have no experience with the Hasselblad model you are interested in, but I have really enjoyed using the Pentax 645D. In spite of it size, it is really easy to shoot with handheld. I like the dual tripod sockets for vertical and horizontal mounting. Write times are a bit of a pain, but the plusses outweigh that. I like that you can setup the card slots to like a mini RAID array where each card has the same data in case one card is corrupt--I had a corrupt SD card in one camera once in a situation I could not reshoot. The electronic level is really nice and well as the weatherproof remote that can be used for bulb and mirror lock up. I did buy the Pentax 645 Refconverter, a 90 degree finder attachment, which has been great when the camera is in awkward positions. I swapped my viewfinder scene for the gridded one. Having grown up with manual cameras, I was unsure how all the exposure modes were going to help, but I have found different situations were each is valuable, although I usually use aperture priority and manual exposure. Customizing how the camera works is also nice.

But the most important thing is I enjoy using the camera. Regardless of the bells and whistles, that is the most important because you are more likely to pick it up and use it--bad cameras are a chore. Clicking with your equipment is important and that is really personal. I would give yourself some time to test these--you really need to get comfortable with the camera before you can see where it is annoying. I took me a while to get used to the character of the 645D mostly because I was used to manual cameras.

Whatever you end up with will make great images--MFD or 35mm.
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2011, 09:04:49 AM »
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An excellent option as well. Unfortunately, I think that is out of the OPs budget. I have never priced the Cambo tech camera and that might be closer with a 22MP back. Still, having done a far amount of documentary work with a Horseman SW612, it might be intimidating for travel photography--most photographers gravitate to AF for that.

From "Cost Per Megapixel" from theguywitha645D:

What I really like in MFD gear conversations with folks trying to get into the area where member X it thinking about a Phase/Mamiya 30MP system and then someone comes on and suggests an Alpa and an IQ180 as if it is really a simple choice and money is no object--like it was like choosing between a micro four thirds GH2 and E-P3.

this had me laughing rather hard.
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2011, 09:09:16 AM »
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- How a camera handles is very important to me. I know that's a very personal thing, but I like to hear what others think nonetheless.

Cheers,
Brian

I bought a Hasselblad without ever holding it (big mistake) because, I personally did not like the way it handled. To me, it always felt like the grip was going to fall off, because the grip and the battery are one and the same and obviously the battery is removable. I understand this was a bit a personal unjustified fear, but none-the-less it was how I felt about the camera. Lenses work great, UI on back is fine, not exceptional but fine, body is a bit clunky.

I liked the 645DF better, and the 645D is rather nice, the 645D has more buttons, which could get in the way for some, but whatever...
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2011, 09:15:21 AM »
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From "Cost Per Megapixel" from theguywitha645D:

What I really like in MFD gear conversations with folks trying to get into the area where member X it thinking about a Phase/Mamiya 30MP system and then someone comes on and suggests an Alpa and an IQ180 as if it is really a simple choice and money is no object--like it was like choosing between a micro four thirds GH2 and E-P3.

this had me laughing rather hard.

HA HA HA...

I never said I was perfect. Wink

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2011, 09:18:08 AM »
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Hi!

You don't need to put an IQ180 on the Alpa. The body is a bit on the expensive side, but MF digital is expensive, I got the impression that lenses are reasonably priced.

The Pentax 645D is a great value, of course, especially if you happen to have a bunch of 645 lenses.

It really depends on what you plan to use the camera for.

Best regards
Erik
From "Cost Per Megapixel" from theguywitha645D:

What I really like in MFD gear conversations with folks trying to get into the area where member X it thinking about a Phase/Mamiya 30MP system and then someone comes on and suggests an Alpa and an IQ180 as if it is really a simple choice and money is no object--like it was like choosing between a micro four thirds GH2 and E-P3.

this had me laughing rather hard.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2011, 09:48:11 AM »
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Hi!

You don't need to put an IQ180 on the Alpa. The body is a bit on the expensive side, but MF digital is expensive, I got the impression that lenses are reasonably priced.

The Pentax 645D is a great value, of course, especially if you happen to have a bunch of 645 lenses.

It really depends on what you plan to use the camera for.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, Brian was actually quoting me, but it is not obvious in the formatting. Still, he did not have to be so rude as to point out my hypocrisy! Smiley
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2011, 02:20:28 PM »
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Erik, Brian was actually quoting me, but it is not obvious in the formatting. Still, he did not have to be so rude as to point out my hypocrisy! Smiley

heheh just sayin :-)
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2011, 02:26:34 PM »
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... Why do you need a tripod for landscape and architecture?...

Say what!?
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Slobodan

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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2011, 02:27:35 PM »
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Say what!?

Maybe he was thinking, small apertures, big DOF, long exposure + M/up and stability?
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John.Williams
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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2011, 10:19:48 AM »
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Db, the folks @ Fotocare are knowledgable and can provide a solid review of the Hasselblad H4D-40, along with workflow both tethered and untethered performance.

Something not mentioned in the argument from small format is the 16-bit of MF sensors that capture 400x the color data than 14-bit, and 1600x more color data than 12-bit; the reality of this is apparent when editing your finals - plenty of room to stretch...Check out Hans Strand on YouTube; he discusses this from the photographers POV.

John
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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2011, 11:41:22 AM »
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Hi,

That statement is heavily contested in this discussion: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=59856.0

Best regards
Erik



Something not mentioned in the argument from small format is the 16-bit of MF sensors that capture 400x the color data than 14-bit, and 1600x more color data than 12-bit; the reality of this is apparent when editing your finals - plenty of room to stretch...Check out Hans Strand on YouTube; he discusses this from the photographers POV.

John
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eronald
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2011, 11:42:41 AM »
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Something not mentioned in the argument from small format is the 16-bit of MF sensors that capture 400x the color data than 14-bit

John

wahahahahahahaha

ROTFL

Edmund
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ondebanks
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2011, 11:53:50 AM »
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1. The camera both have the same sensor.

Umm, they don't - it's the 31MP H4D he's asking about, not the 40MP H4D.

Same manufacturer (Kodak), same sensor area (44x33 mm), same sensor concept (with microlenses); but the 31MP is a generation older, with bigger (6.8 micron vs 6.0 micron) and slightly noiser (most noticeably in long exposures) pixels.

If it were my decision, I'd pick the 645D. Both sensors are very good, with the nod to the Pentax as their firmware delivers higher ISO and unrestricted longer exposures. But my main focus would be on the two lens ranges, which are very different - what do you need from them? Faster apertures? (Pentax); higher flash synch? (Hasselblad); longer telephotos? (Pentax, including P67 ones too); Compatible with 3rd party lenses? (Pentax, with adapters for Exakta/Pentacon/Kiev etc.); tilt-shift adapter? (Hasselblad)...

Ray
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db8121
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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2011, 01:25:53 PM »
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Thanks again for all your replies. I'm going to head to Fotocare tomorrow morning and try out the Hassy (both the H4D-31 and 40). Really appreciate all of your responses.

Cheers,
Brian
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2011, 01:45:46 PM »
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If the answer is higher resolution for larger prints, then I would advise to wait until January 2012 since high end DSLRs will soon be in the same ballpark resolutionwise at 1/3 the price in a smaller, lighter package more suitable to landscape work.
The pentax is pretty affordable ... any 36mp offering from Canon or Nikon most likely will be in the $8k range, so only a little less than the Pentax.  It remains to be seen if it even happens, given Canon's recent announcement and Nikon's rumored D4 specs (16mp) with much less chatter about a D4x.  I'd be curious as to what you are basing your January 2012 prediction on.

Not even sure if the manufacturers of dSLR's have an interest anymore in higher resolution ... they all seemed to be moving in other directions right now.
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aaron
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2011, 02:41:07 PM »
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.......snip
Well, no company offers discounts to cameras that have been on the market for a year. And the prices are not much different from when I bought it in Japan this March. And market pricing is not uniform around the world. Camera companies base local prices on the national distributor and conditions. This goes as well for discounts. Since the camera is manufactured overseas, Pentax Japan could also be taking advantage of a strong Yen.

Link to current prices in Japan:

http://kakaku.com/item/K0000095422/

That is quite a spread...

Pentax in the UK at least, are currently offering a 10% discount on the price of a 645d body only or lens kit. They have been running the promotion since August.
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PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2011, 03:43:55 PM »
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Something not mentioned in the argument from small format is the 16-bit of MF sensors that capture 400x the color data than 14-bit, and 1600x more color data than 12-bit; the reality of this is apparent when editing your finals - plenty of room to stretch...Check out Hans Strand on YouTube; he discusses this from the photographers POV.

Let's assume for a minute that you don't want to be bothered by electron counts in the sensor wells or the mysteries of noise (the KAF40000 has a well capacity of +/-42000 e and a read noise of 13e) Let's also assume that you got the basic math right (fwiw 2^12 is 4096, 2^14 is 16384 and 2^16 is 65536).

What would  be, in your opinion, the difference in size between two shots of the same scene where one camera records 1600 times more _actual_ data than the other?


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