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Author Topic: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro  (Read 20535 times)
fredjeang
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« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2012, 04:23:17 PM »
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>>>I got the sensation that now they are going to eat stone eggs because the pushing generation is simply saying no (to stay polite) to those abuses (they build their own equipment, they pirat softwares, they hack cameras and they are much less asleep than their parents).<<<<

Exactly on target ! It does not count how to reach a result, it only counts you do it ! Either with iPhones, or GoProHero2, or cheap entry DSLR´s which are  more than "pretty good" already. Use lens adapters, hack Pana´s GH2, use magic lantern. Put the results in After Effects, Maya and be really good have training, LEARN and be creative, no : _ BE CREATIVE_ !!!!

This is how the Kids are today, not all but the best - and - all over the world, they grew up with this and they will show us how this will change our little "ProGearOnly" idea of professional Imaging-media-making. The wind is blowing. For some it will be a cosy and warm breeze when they open their sails and use it, the other ones will find their houses destroyed by tornados.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

Totally agree, and well described.

Cheers.
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mediumcool
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« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2012, 05:31:20 PM »
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+1.Its also a DSLR with only a larger sensor as the difference.., nothing to do with MF format as a purpose. At least not the way we discuss it with Thierry and Stefan up there and in which I would like your opinion/contribution, that is if you wish... Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

No, Theodoros, you want me to respond as to your wishes, and I do not have to do that.
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« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2012, 05:39:52 PM »
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Dear Radu,

I didn't "count" Pentax nor Leica in these numbers, but spoke about 3 or 4 manufacturers, depending on if one still counts Sinar as a back manufacturer.

Thierry

Why not, Thierry? Is it because the sensors are not removeable to attach to another camera?
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« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2012, 09:11:36 PM »
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If any medium format back went to 1000, to 1500 clean iso at about 30 to 40 mpx, tethered, had good skin tones, reliable robust software, I'd buy it . . . today . . . though even with that I will still only use it for about 25% of our work, which is more than my current backs that I use for about 10% to 15% of our work due to the iso limitations. If the Pentax  tethered I'd buy it, even with the lack of new lenses.  At $10,000 and the fact that it has a good lcd, shoots a good in camera jpeg makes it a deal . . .IF it would reliably tether.


Baby Cooter,

I have been shooting the Pentax 645D for quite a while now. I bought it from B&H, and bought a slew of lenses from KEH, and cobbled my Mamiya 80 with an adapter, to work on it too. My thoughts:

* Really nice camera.

* Incredible viewfinder. A joy to look thru, and compose thru.

* ASA goes to 1000, and in Lightroom, it's a really nice tight "grain" at 1000; i never hesitate setting it on 1000. Minimum ASA is 200, which I found kinda weird. No 100.

* Meter is really nice.

* LCD is large and bright. Controls are easy. Feels like a camera; not a computer.

* Shoots RAW to DNG; opens effortlessly in Lightroom. Invisible that it's a DNG.

* Lenses are dirt cheap. Except for the auto focus 35mm, which is kinda rare, and needs to be found in Asia. With 35mm lens, autofocus is worth paying for ($1500). But most lenses I choose to manual focus anyway, but that's just me. Most lenses: $300. I also have the autofocus version of the 75, but never use the autofocus.

* Lenses are really nice wide open.

* Shoots a really large file. Really nice. I output to 24x30 on my 7900, using Cold Press Bright.

* Main negative thing: It feels underpowered. Compared to the zip of the D3x, it feels like it wants to have a V-8 engine, but in actuality, it runs like it's got a four cylinder engine in it. The LCD is slow to report; frustrating when working really fast, with impatient people. I would gladly pay another ten grand for a V-8 engine in the Version Two of it, if there ever is a Version Two. Who knows if there'll ever be a version two.

* I have not shot a frame with the Nikon since buying the Pentax. Looking thru the viewfinder of the D3x is like looking thru a tiny black tunnel, compared to the Pentax viewer.

* If you're not in a super hurry, can't imagine a nicer camera than the 645D. Yes, kinda weird that you have to buy the lenses off the back of a truck, but it is what it is.

* Battery lasts forever. Seems to never go dead.

* Note: Weird dealer representation. I looked at the camera at Adorama, but they only offered a seven day return policy, and they weren't wild about offering that. Worse with K at Samy's; no return policy whatsoever. But B&H offered a full no questions asked return for 30 days, as long as camera as new. $9995 at B&H. Great company. I talked to humans on the phone, to confirm the return policy, since the camera was unproven.

* I opened the box and started shooting it. Never read the manual. Reminds me of the Contax -- old school, in a good way. I only shoot BW with it, and i set the LCD to show up in BW. I bought the on camera Pentax flash, because I secretly want to be Weegee.

* Two slots for SD cards. I keep a 32gig in Slot One, and only ever shoot to Slot One. I shoot Raw only; no JPG. I keep a 16g in Slot Two just as a back up, but mostly it just sits there. My 13" MBP has an SD card slot right in the computer; makes it really nice and easy.

Those are my thoughts on the Pentax 645D.

Hope you're well. Over and out.
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TH_Alpa
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« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2012, 12:33:47 AM »
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Among other reasons, because the marget targeted is not the same as the one (high-end segment) targeted by the "traditional" back manufacturers.

Best regards
Thierry

Why not, Thierry? Is it because the sensors are not removeable to attach to another camera?
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bcooter
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« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2012, 03:13:09 AM »
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Baby Cooter,

I have been shooting the Pentax 645D for quite a while now.


gwitif,

Yea, we're dong pretty good, hope your doing the same.

About the 645d, thanks, that's good to know.  We'll make some calls and see if we can get a body and a lens and do a quick test.

You say you dedicate it to black and white.  Have you used it on color and since you mostly shoot people what are the skin tones on the 645D like?

Also what do you process in?

You know, it's funny, we were in Tokyo a few months ago and my partner and producer asked me if I wanted to go to Yodobashi the large camera chain in Japan.

They have everything and I'm sure brand new Pentax lenses.

I said, uh . . . no .  . . . well yea, but uh, no because I'll only spend 10 grand or a lot more,  buying the Pentax and I probably shouldn't buy it.

Maybe I was wrong.

P.S.  I'm surprised that K at Samy's couldn't offer a buy back or warranty.   She's been so good for our business and like you we've had nothing be great service from her.

Well, maybe Samy's doesn't have the pull like B&H.

Fred,

The two phrases I've heard in this business from the moment I picked up my first camera is 1.  Things use to be better in the good ol' days (I don't believe that) and 2. Film (motion) crews think still guys make bank, still guys think cinema (motion) crews make bank and spend too much money on production.

Sure there is some waste sometimes, but in reality at least in my world, I don't know anyone throwing money around like it doesn't matter.  I see the opposite.  Our budgets aren't that much different, but the amount of volume we're required to produce is up 5 fold.

Also our 10 hour shoot days are now 12 to 14 hours, unless God turns off the light.

Anyway.

I understand that the world is getting smaller and it's easy to say we can all shoot on a tiny camera, tiny lights and do the next Michael Bay movie, or GQ spread, but in reality, with anywhere near serious money and high expectations on a project you have to have robust equipment.

Sure Arri, Mole, LTM, are all old meat locker technology, and weigh too much, have a hell of a power draw, but you can also toss two dozen of them into the back of truck and they won't break.

Try that with anything lighter, smaller and cheaper and I know from experience you'll have non working lights.

Actually, two years ago we bought some large fluorescents that had the biggest tube in each fixture I've ever seen.  They always broke in transport, even though the maker finally came out with a hard case.  Those lights still set on a shelf broken and I have no desire to replace them.

Now I do think some of the smaller cameras are fascinating and allow us to do some tricks that couldn't be done before, at least not without hours of rigging, but I also can't see me saying to myself, much less a client that uh, well, the RED went down but we have this little white Nikon that shoots video.

Maybe it's old school but that's one of the reasons I bought a second RED, one of the reasons we also have a Scarlet being delivered as I write this.

I have a problem with the word cheaper, maybe it's just a reflection of the way the market has gone the last few years with the economic downturn, but cheaper to me usually means a client wants the same if not more than they did before, just for less budget.  

You know I've ridden this storm and come out ok, but me and my studios have done it by working harder and not dropping our production levels.  Sure, sometimes you bite the bullet and don't make what you want, but in the end, looking to the medium term, it always pays off.

In fact we invested more during the "recession" than we did when things we're fat, (or is that phat?) and I know it's paid off.

Don't get me wrong, if someone makes a RED equivalent that sells for 3 grand I'll buy it, or if they make some camera that absolutely does what no other camera in the world will do for 50 grand, I might buy that also, but in the end, everybody says it's just about the photograph or the story or the video or the whatever, but what it's really about is delivering without problems, hesitation and excuses and the only way I know to do this is with professional people and professional equipment.

As far as dealers and their markup, I have no problem with that as long as it's fair market value.  Hey, I have no problem with anyone making a healthy profit, because if they don't they won't be around and a good dealer can be a lifesaver.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 03:18:28 AM by bcooter » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2012, 04:09:23 AM »
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James,

I totally agree with all your lines. I don't think our thoughts are not compatible, on the contrary, they just reflect 2 sides of the same thing.

The big problem with cheap little equipment, as you pointed, is the reliability side. I'm facing actually this dilema. I've hacked the GH2 and gained incredibly in output. But then, the testings I'm doing at home aren't really reflecting the real world and surprises could show-up. Soon I know I'll have some fashion assignements, for sure with supermodels from what they told me, and there is no option for failure. I won't take yet the hacked GH2 because I have no idea if in real world conditions (and not in my homestudio) it will not crash because of the hack-cards, so a lot of previous testings are necesary. That's not possible to work like that for many pros. We indeed need very solid reliable equipments and those are expensive. (The question is that if they are fairly priced within the expensiveness? I think that they aren't and benefits margen are exagerate but that's another debate).

So I'm  aware and agree 200% on the importance of the points you are making here.
On the other hand, in the post-prod side, we could also say the same: people will tell you that working with their Da-Vinci suites is a no-hassle and reliable process that is the norm in the high-end, for the same reasons than the prod side but it results that those millionaire suites are more and more empty, we know that, we're hearing stories all the time about prod houses that have their Autodesk, Nucoda etc...suites not working the way they did and should to be profitable, a lot actually have - are closing.

It results that an Edius 6 would edit 4K in real time and with wysiwyg capabilities and has the tools to grade as well (but with more steps) as Da-Vinci and this without going out of the same software and it's bloody intuitive. Things will be more and more like that, I think it's unstopable. Thank god I haven't put myself in Smoke workflow, like I wanted to do.

Because it seems that there is a paradox: you are absolutly right when you say that it's not so true that prods are throwing money by the windows.  In fact they are really measuring costs to the lastest peny, but at the same time, there is a tremendous amount of wasting in different parts of the pipeline, corruption of all kinds, favors and false facturations etc etc...this is a paradox but I'm seeing both. The traditional way has become too heavy and IMO, ultimatly is going against the stream of our times.
It's not a elephant, it's a Mammoth and ice is melting...

This is where the dilema is really. We need reliable equipments, we need solid stable gear and softwares, we need no hassle, and that has a cost. And at the same time, we need to do things differently, we need lighter and simplified workflows, and specially in the PP.

The problem is that there is still no really satisfactory answer that covers those 2 parameters.  So for one part there are people pulling the string on the Red-Alexa side and on the other side of the string, others pulling it on the small, cheap, Canons-GH2.

IMO, the solution lays exactly in the middle of the string. Maybe Epic sort of equipments.

I think that the coming times are going to be exciting because we will have what we need.

Cheers.

Ps: what gwhitf is using for motion ?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 05:19:13 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Radu Arama
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« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2012, 05:13:02 AM »
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Quote

* ASA goes to 1000, and in Lightroom, it's a really nice tight "grain" at 1000; i never hesitate setting it on 1000. Minimum ASA is 200, which I found kinda weird. No 100.


Hello!

All contemporary Pentax cameras have a so called "expanded sensitivity" and so does the 645D. You can access an ISO range from 100 to 1600 instead of the default 200-1000 by;

1) Entering the Menu
2) Select C(ustom) tab
3)  Select the 3rd row - Expanded sensitivity and switch from the default Off to position 2 - On.
4) You can now select ISO in steps from 100 to 1600.

Regards,
Radu
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #108 on: January 16, 2012, 11:57:25 AM »
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* Two slots for SD cards. I keep a 32gig in Slot One, and only ever shoot to Slot One. I shoot Raw only; no JPG. I keep a 16g in Slot Two just as a back up, but mostly it just sits there. My 13" MBP has an SD card slot right in the computer; makes it really nice and easy.


I love my 645D as well. I setup the card slot to duplicate the image on both cards so it acts as a mini-RAID 1--I use two 16GB cards which gets me about 280 RAW. I have had SD cards be corrupt and this is like a nice piece of insurance.
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2012, 12:10:19 PM »
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I love my 645D as well. I setup the card slot to duplicate the image on both cards so it acts as a mini-RAID 1--I use two 16GB cards which gets me about 280 RAW. I have had SD cards be corrupt and this is like a nice piece of insurance.
I love my dog and my cat... Shocked! Sorry.., wrong forum, I was looking for the one about MFDB in relevance with high res DSLRs pricing  Wink! Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2012, 12:31:04 PM »
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I love my dog and my cat... Shocked! Sorry.., wrong forum, I was looking for the one about MFDB in relevance with high res DSLRs pricing  Wink! Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr

Indeed wrong forum, I guess dpreview would be much more appropriate for mean and stupid messages like yours. Now if I only find the ignore button ...
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2012, 12:57:09 PM »
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Yes I am still looking for the one about the MFDB pricing in relevance to high res DSLRs. Instead I only find the "lets promote... " one. Huh Which of course is very intelligent (and ethical) Wink. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. Did you know that my dog and my cat is MF? Trully..(!), they are... bigger than yours! Grin
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2012, 01:28:28 PM »
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Hi Thierry, although I agree with you about the expected "stability" of the MFDB market, I keep thinking that they (the makers) miss the opportunity to expand it. IMO they have worked a lot in the later years, to attract the customers from the top DSLRs, by trying to give MF the same user-friendly appearance on their cameras as a DSLR. OTOH much of the need for DBs is because of their ability to serve more purposes than just MF, the support to view and technical cameras, multishot and microstep, stitching and astrophotography (long exposures), are only a few that the use of a DB makes the difference. Although I don't believe that there will be any 36mpx D800, we have to realize, that the inevitable and welcome increase in the IQ of FF DSLRs, will make the use of a MFDB for the same purpose less appealing..., hence the makers should pay more attention to enhance the traditional values that DBs stand for and enhance on them. If I was to decide for manufacturers, I would ask Dalsa to introduce a cost effective, improved FF version of their traditional 22 & 33mpx sensor, at 28 & 42mpx respectively. Such a sensor could be beneficial for Sinar and Hasselblad to re-introduce multishot and microstep capable backs at sensible costs, it could be used by P1 to apply their sensor+ and exposure+ technology and if Hass would reintroduce their interchangeable adapter CF backs, they could along with Sinar, "wake up" the lot of MF that exists (Bronica, RB, LF.. etc), by creating a lot of base customers for the future. My opinion is, that its the solution providence of MF that should be enhanced, not the better IQ as such. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. The second hand market of older DBs must also be expanded from the manufacturers, it can be very beneficial for them, if they give the opportunity to many more photographers to access MF.
Which leaves us with the Pentax 645D, a camera that does nothing of the above, don't have the lens range and quality of the above and doesn't tether as all the above do! In fact the only thing that its different on it from the K5, in its approach to photography, is the size of its sensor. So... "does size matters... to better photography?". IMV, if size doesn't matter..., it should be ...shortened a bit.  Cool Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fredjeang
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« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2012, 01:36:08 PM »
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... but in the end, everybody says it's just about the photograph or the story or the video or the whatever, but what it's really about is delivering without problems, hesitation and excuses and the only way I know to do this is with professional people and professional equipment.


Couldn't agree more. I'd like to put a sort of disclaimer or precise better my previous posts.

It's true that ultimatly, the content is always the most important, and there are outside many people who are doing great content, but professionaly that's another story, the difference lays in the sentence you posted.

Don't get me wrong, it would be completly ridiculous that a pro in your position and in commercial would work with plastic 800 euros cameras and not top team crew, although I'm sure the content would be the same quality because I know that what you (and we) produce rarely depends on the equipment when it comes to talent; but then, what you said is absolutly true and critical for anybody who wants to be taken seriously, work seriously and respect his clients as a professional.

My point was slightly different and it's not always easy for me to express myself  correctly in english.

I think I can explain it better with Red. Red is professional. But you can't deny that James Jannard was a visionary and at the same time a great businessman. He knew how to surround himself with the best engineers, but he wanted to break patterns. The Red cameras have revolutionate how the things could be done in video-cine, to the prices of the equipment itself. From a cine point of view, a Red system is almost gifted.
If Red could break price to that level for such an equipment level, the only conclusion I can draw is that, or they loose money, or the competition was...well..."not very fairly priced".
Cine was a mammoth, Red came and put a tiger. The Alexa is 60.000 without Arriraw and not 4k...

Red did exactly what FCP did in it's time to Avid. Avid was over-expensive, unintuitive and arrogant. That was my point when I was talking about the overpriced equipment. Apple comes and sweep the dust with FCP.
I don't like FCP, but I recognize it's importance in the pp history.

That was what I had in mind when I wrote the post. Not that I thought that you should work with the D4 or the GH2 (I don't beleive that a second) or questioning your business model, I'm not anyone to give you professional advices, it's much more the other way, I'm actually learning a lot from you.
And Red has also been visionary with the Epic, although it has some beta issues, they will solve them and soon or later the Epic will be 100% reliable. Could we consider the Epic a non suitable camera for the high-end imagery? I think by any means. (well Bloom issues were because the beta factor, and he's been a bit careless not securing his set with the F3 or even a stable hacked gh2).

Same with FCPx. It's not there, but imagine tomorrow the FCPX 2 or 3, with the features you really need, great color correct features etc...maybe you would do all or most in just one editor. If it's good enough, it shouldn't affect the profesional side, as we know how painfull it is to go from a software to another. If this industry gives you the tool, you will probably abandon the Da-Vinci step simply because doing everything with the less possible manipulations, in one software is been wanted for a lot of people now. And we know that it will come soon.

As for team, I think you'd agree that if we were in a super-specialized era highly colaborative, complex and expensive, the swich is that the pros, the good assistants etc...are going to be each time more versatile and multitasks. I think that the micro gear and reduced team but highly trained and very professionals are going to have step by step a respected place in the commercial imagery, even in the high-end. The progress of technology is allowing that more and more.

Yeah, my point was the Red example, it's impact in the industry and how they changed the workflows, the mentalities and the prices-cost effectiveness. It's the closest example that comes to my mind and sorry if I didn't transmit it well.

Cheers.


« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 04:36:19 PM by fredjeang » Logged
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