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Author Topic: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro  (Read 21238 times)
fotometria gr
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« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2012, 09:07:04 AM »
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Theodoros

Sinar: thatīs too complicated to explain in 2 sentences but I try. Given their actual market share and the fact that the Backs are still built by Jenoptic I guess it does not make much sense. Sinar is not what it once was, they still do carry the name, but itīs not the same company anymore. maybe Thierry wants to explain that in Detail, otherwise I would say - not of relevance (sad but true)

Leica: seems to be the company which will do best of all the mentioned. And as it is in the rumours - they will probably use the new Fuji organic CMOS chips this year, so I guess not much need for a joint venture.

Last but not least: Pentax - as they are on the well of japanese resources I think we  do NOT need to consider Pentax a third player in a Joint venture.
I expect Ricoh to absorb the Pentax 645 into a soon to come GRX- Xtra Large.

Left over Hasselblad and Phase. And both - if they will not claim their part on this Pro Highend market will be in trouble in medium time frame of about 5 years latest, whereas I think that Phase has even more to loose on all these Frame and Tech users. And this is not only my opinion , this exactly was stated by Henrik Hakansson april 2010 in an interview with german "Profifoto". They are actually neighbours in Kopenhagen and probably know each other very well. So guys - get it settled, do the right thing - speak !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan


But Leica did get possession of the Jenoptic shares in Sinar, didn't they? They don't want to loose their money, do they? I mean what I did propose up there (for all MFDB makers) and Thierry agreed, would give them a new momentum, that surely is for Leica's interest (especially if bad relationship with Imacon due to the DMR story comes into play...). MF makers have to realize that if one of them dies out of the three left (P1/leaf, Imacon/Hass and Leica/Sinar), they will all die, its not a game where the winner takes the prizes, people (photographers more so...) trust no one to act without competition, they know they will be ripped and tech advancement will be delayed! That's why I've said in other forums, that the MFDB manufacturers follow a suicidal policy! If I was to decide for them, I would additionally to what I state above, propose to Sinar/Leica to try resurrect the Contax 645 system (especially now that Rollei is dead (?)), this way they would be doing what Mamiya/Leaf is doing and leave Leica to do what Hass is doing, I would also propose to Hass, to bring the H4X into production (not just H1&2 upgrade), reintroduce the film backs AND THE INTERCHANGEABLE ADAPTER (Why do I shout?) CFs, by expanding their range to all the backs they make for the H system, P1/Mamiya should also reintroduce a film back (even if its unprofitable), work on their compatibility with older useful cameras (what the hell is an "one shot"?) and expand the physical size of their basic sensors. Regards, Theodoros.
P.S. My Opinion/proposal, is additional to what I stated on my previous discussion with Thierry, who's opinion I consider valuable and required, ...if we are to expand this discussion.
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mediumcool
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« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2012, 09:25:12 AM »
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… based on my information Pentax makes 700 units per month and that alone accounts for 8.4K units per year.

Radu

Radu, that is production, not sales. How much is lurking in the channel?  Grin

I believed that the Pentax 645D would be an industry game-changer, but the lack of lenses (what were they thinking?) and no tethering … ?

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TH_Alpa
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« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2012, 09:37:21 AM »
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Dear Radu,

I didn't "count" Pentax nor Leica in these numbers, but spoke about 3 or 4 manufacturers, depending on if one still counts Sinar as a back manufacturer.

Best regards
Thierry

Hello Thierry!

Would you mind to elaborate if those 10 000 units are only for backs or all MF cameras (including S2 and 645D integrated models)? Because based on my information Pentax makes 700 units per month and that alone accounts for 8.4K units per year.

Thank you!
Radu

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fotometria gr
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« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2012, 09:39:34 AM »
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Radu, that is production, not sales. How much is lurking in the channel?  Grin

I believed that the Pentax 645D would be an industry game-changer, but the lack of lenses (what were they thinking?) and no tethering … ?


+1.Its also a DSLR with only a larger sensor as the difference.., nothing to do with MF format as a purpose. At least not the way we discuss it with Thierry and Stefan up there and in which I would like your opinion/contribution, that is if you wish... Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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MrSmith
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« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2012, 09:42:10 AM »
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we would all like the luxury of a crystal ball to see what the MFD world looks like in 5 years time, but one thing i do believe is that if a japanese manufacturer wanted to they could make all phamiyablad cameras obsolete overnight if they decided it was worth investing the money in a new system.
 the sensor technology is there as is the lens technology (see the thread on canon 17/24mm tse on MFD) the reason pentax hasn't dented the pro market is no rock solid viable tether software or lens rental/hire back-up in major cities.

the problem with the MF manufacturers is they are dictated to by the sensor manufacturers and what they produce, this imho is not an ideal place to be. manufacturing/designing your own sensors puts you in a far better position to react to your customers needs.
the only aces being held are the software (Capture-1) and the cameras (H-blad)
it wouldn't surprise me to see more consolidation in the MF world and 35mm chipping away at the already small market once the 30+ sensors with no AAF and amazing iso performance and lenses with the 17/24mm performance enter the market.

whatever happens i will be surprised if all the major players are still there with the same owners in 5 years time.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2012, 10:00:47 AM »
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Radu, that is production, not sales. How much is lurking in the channel?  Grin

I believed that the Pentax 645D would be an industry game-changer, but the lack of lenses (what were they thinking?) and no tethering … ?



Pentax is not having a problem with selling the camera--it happens to be very much in demand, which is the main reason it is still in production. Apparently, ability to tether has not been impacting sales to a great degree--not everyone needs it. Right now I have four excellent lenses for my 645D (35mm, 55mm, 120mm, and 300mm) with plenty more available. Pentax has released two new lenses and a third will be released this year with several already planned after it.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2012, 10:10:43 AM »
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the problem with the MF manufacturers is they are dictated to by the sensor manufacturers and what they produce, this imho is not an ideal place to be. manufacturing/designing your own sensors puts you in a far better position to react to your customers needs.

There are few sensor manufacturers than camera companies and so this is not a situation unique to MF. Designing and producing sensors is not easy. The R&D just to produce a new sensor is really great. MFD companies are not going to be able to change sensors on a whim--they are going to have recoup their outlay and there sales volume is not very large and so they would not be able to update their sensors as quickly as you imagine. Plus, to start from scratch would be a huge investment, not only in the tooling, but also getting the engineers and getting the engineers up to the point where they can make something equal to what the industry can produce now.

Leica having Kodak produce their CCD and then making it exclusive is one way of doing it. I am sure Leica had input into the design with more than just the aspect ratio.
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fotometria gr
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« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2012, 10:24:52 AM »
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we would all like the luxury of a crystal ball to see what the MFD world looks like in 5 years time, but one thing i do believe is that if a japanese manufacturer wanted to they could make all phamiyablad cameras obsolete overnight if they decided it was worth investing the money in a new system.
 the sensor technology is there as is the lens technology (see the thread on canon 17/24mm tse on MFD) the reason pentax hasn't dented the pro market is no rock solid viable tether software or lens rental/hire back-up in major cities.

the problem with the MF manufacturers is they are dictated to by the sensor manufacturers and what they produce, this imho is not an ideal place to be. manufacturing/designing your own sensors puts you in a far better position to react to your customers needs.
the only aces being held are the software (Capture-1) and the cameras (H-blad)
it wouldn't surprise me to see more consolidation in the MF world and 35mm chipping away at the already small market once the 30+ sensors with no AAF and amazing iso performance and lenses with the 17/24mm performance enter the market.

whatever happens i will be surprised if all the major players are still there with the same owners in 5 years time.
Don't agree with the above, who constructs a sensor doesn't make the difference, it's how you tune and master it that does. Nikon doesn't make their own sensors either and all these Sony and Panasonic needing the now-how of Zeiss and Leitz, does prove that its not just a matter of some kind of Gorilla against monkey game, where the Gorilla can, but doesn't want to harm the monkey. The "Canonikons" have never done MF and Pentax 645D proves, that if they would, their approach would be the same as they do with their DSLRs. They just lack the now-how. IMO, they do try to vanish the MF makers, their game is all about resolution as such not IQ! By vanishing the small (economically) makers they can replace them on the "photography throne"! This will prove very profitable. They don't because they can't, so they influence much of the customers not to seek photography as such, but rather have created "pixel peepers", "resolution hunters" and "gadget consumers". If MF will fall in the trap of "your camera makes you a photographer" you will prove right, if it will serve the photographers FOR THEIR PHOTOGRAPHY, it will grow. Only my two cents. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2012, 11:32:19 AM »
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Radu, that is production, not sales. How much is lurking in the channel?  Grin

I believed that the Pentax 645D would be an industry game-changer, but the lack of lenses (what were they thinking?) and no tethering … ?

Hello MC,

Pentax started production in January 2010 with 500 units per month (that's a verifiable fact) then were unable to fulfill the initial preorders in Japan thus postponing the launch from May to June 2010 and after that (word of mouth somewhat confirmed by the serial numbers of cameras - not solid proof whatsoever) upped it to 700 units. This cannot suggest anything but inability to fill the channels not the other way around.

About the lenses Pentax is most often judged (on the net in the English speaking fora) by the abysmal performance of Pentax USA (which is fair because if you're US based it makes no difference for you personally what the situation is in the EU, Japan or rest of the Asia). Yet in those three zones Pentax probably sells 90% of the 645D production and (at least in Japan and EU) one can easily find at least 10 FA 645 lenses sold as new at great prices (under 600 Euro for the 75/2.8, bellow 1500 Euro for a lot of them) with warranty and all and under 2 weeks delivery time and can also order another few more expensive lenses (FA* 645 300/4, FA 400/5.6 and so on) with a delivery time of about 4 to 6 weeks.

Tethering will come maybe as soon as in 4 weeks time at CP+ show along with a brand new portrait lens and the prototype of the ultra-wide to normal zoom scheduled for next year (30 - 70 mm or so) which will replace two zooms (33-55 and 45-85).

[/quote]
Dear Radu,

I didn't "count" Pentax nor Leica in these numbers, but spoke about 3 or 4 manufacturers, depending on if one still counts Sinar as a back manufacturer.

Best regards
Thierry


Thierry,

First of all thanks a lot for the answer it is nice to finally have some hard numbers from a professional in the business. So it may be possible that the total market for the cameras with a larger than 36x24 mm sensor to be around 20K units per year? And secondly in your opinion saying that Pentax and Leica mostly added new owners and less so impacted on "older" MF manufacturer sales numbers is a fair assessment?

Thank you both,
Radu
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JV
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« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2012, 12:08:32 PM »
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About the lenses Pentax is most often judged (on the net in the English speaking fora) by the abysmal performance of Pentax USA (which is fair because if you're US based it makes no difference for you personally what the situation is in the EU, Japan or rest of the Asia). Yet in those three zones Pentax probably sells 90% of the 645D production and (at least in Japan and EU) one can easily find at least 10 FA 645 lenses sold as new at great prices (under 600 Euro for the 75/2.8, bellow 1500 Euro for a lot of them) with warranty and all and under 2 weeks delivery time and can also order another few more expensive lenses (FA* 645 300/4, FA 400/5.6 and so on) with a delivery time of about 4 to 6 weeks.

Radu,

Just for my understanding, the lenses that you mention above, are they readily available on the US market as new lenses?

When you go to the website of B&H and search for the Pentax 645D you will see that there is one lens linked with the Pentax 645D and that is the 55mm, nothing else.

Regards, Joris.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 12:11:25 PM by JV » Logged
TH_Alpa
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2012, 12:11:07 PM »
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I don't wish to elaborate on Sinar more than what you are saying here, Stephan. As you say, it's not the same company anymore as it used to be, only the name.
And "not of relevance (sad but true)" are about the right words used by you Stephan.

Thierry


Sinar: thatīs too complicated to explain in 2 sentences but I try. Given their actual market share and the fact that the Backs are still built by Jenoptic I guess it does not make much sense. Sinar is not what it once was, they still do carry the name, but itīs not the same company anymore. maybe Thierry wants to explain that in Detail, otherwise I would say - not of relevance (sad but true)

Stefan
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 03:36:43 PM by TH_Alpa » Logged

Radu Arama
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2012, 12:46:26 PM »
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Hello Joris,

English is not my first language and I know it shows! What I meant was that in E.U. one can easily find FA 645 lenses newly manufactured and sometime even available in stock. In Japan the situation is much, much better with a lot of shops actively carrying the entire 645 lens range.

Here are some links:

http://www.ffordes.co.uk/category/Medium_Format/Pentax/645_Lenses#&&PageIndex=1&SortDirection=Ascending&SortExpression=ItemName (btw I see the new 25 mm being "just in" so a good sign)

www.tekade.de (write 645 in the search tab - sorry but their site is half baked)

Like I said Pentax USA is by far the weakest link in the Pentax chain and they should be presented as such. They should import FA 645 lenses and offer them to the three 645 dealers in the US. As they don't do so I wouldn't expect B&H, Adorama or Ace's to import on their own those lenses.

Regards,
Radu

Radu,

Just for my understanding, the lenses that you mention above, are they readily available on the US market as new lenses?

When you go to the website of B&H and search for the Pentax 645D you will see that there is one lens linked with the Pentax 645D and that is the 55mm, nothing else.

Regards, Joris.
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TH_Alpa
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« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2012, 01:03:12 PM »
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No Theodoros, that never was the case. It was planed to happen, was announced, but did never conclude for reasons which I am not allowed to speak about.

Best regards
Thierry

But Leica did get possession of the Jenoptic shares in Sinar, didn't they?
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TH_Alpa
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« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2012, 01:12:23 PM »
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Radu,

I have no idea about these figures, if by that you mean the inclusion of Leica and Pentax.
About your second question, my answer is yes, I don't think that they influenced the usual and professional customer base as it is since years, up to now. And I also think that this customer base is not their target.

Best regards
Thierry

Thierry,

First of all thanks a lot for the answer it is nice to finally have some hard numbers from a professional in the business. So it may be possible that the total market for the cameras with a larger than 36x24 mm sensor to be around 20K units per year? And secondly in your opinion saying that Pentax and Leica mostly added new owners and less so impacted on "older" MF manufacturer sales numbers is a fair assessment?

Radu
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JV
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« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2012, 01:15:06 PM »
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Hello Joris,

English is not my first language and I know it shows! What I meant was that in E.U. one can easily find FA 645 lenses newly manufactured and sometime even available in stock. In Japan the situation is much, much better with a lot of shops actively carrying the entire 645 lens range.

Here are some links:

http://www.ffordes.co.uk/category/Medium_Format/Pentax/645_Lenses#&&PageIndex=1&SortDirection=Ascending&SortExpression=ItemName (btw I see the new 25 mm being "just in" so a good sign)

www.tekade.de (write 645 in the search tab - sorry but their site is half baked)

Like I said Pentax USA is by far the weakest link in the Pentax chain and they should be presented as such. They should import FA 645 lenses and offer them to the three 645 dealers in the US. As they don't do so I wouldn't expect B&H, Adorama or Ace's to import on their own those lenses.

Regards,
Radu


Radu,

Thanks for the reply!  Are the FA lenses film lenses or are they lenses for the Pentax DSLRs?

BTW, at ₤3799 (US equivalent $5823) the new 25mm lens is not exactly cheap...

Best, Joris.
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bcooter
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« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2012, 01:25:31 PM »
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IF.

If any medium format back went to 1000, to 1500 clean iso at about 30 to 40 mpx, tethered, had good skin tones, reliable robust software, I'd buy it . . . today . . . though even with that I will still only use it for about 25% of our work, which is more than my current backs that I use for about 10% to 15% of our work due to the iso limitations.

If the Pentax  tethered I'd buy it, even with the lack of new lenses.  At $10,000 and the fact that it has a good lcd, shoots a good in camera jpeg makes it a deal . . .IF it would reliably tether.

If Contax had continued with some new lenses and an upgraded body/viewfinder, they would have sold about $30,000 more to me and every other Contax user on the planet . . .if . . . they had continued.

If our industry had stuck with flash lighting , still only imagery I'd have probably bought into a new back or system, though without major iso changes I'd probably have just shopped used or demo.  Right now about 10% of our work is shot with flash only, All of our work is shot with continuous lighting.

Now in regards to price, from a professional point of view, everything is too expensive unless you need it for commerce, then the price becomes less relevant.

I thought our original Canon 1ds' were expensive until we bought medium format backs, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema video cameras, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema lenses, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema lighting, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema supports, monitors, post production computers, software.............................

Is it really all about price?  It seems on these forums price is mentioned a lot which kind of surprises me considering how long one of these backs last.

I really think it's more about usability.  A Canon or Nikon under certain situations will not shot as nice a file as a medium format back, but overall a Canon or Nikon will shoot in just about any situation.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 02:07:07 PM by bcooter » Logged
MrSmith
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« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2012, 02:06:54 PM »
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"If any medium format back went to 1000, to 1500 clean iso at about 30 to 40 mpx, tethered, had good skin tones, reliable robust software, I'd buy it . . . today ."

me too, i would even settle for a clean 800  Grin
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fredjeang
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« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2012, 02:30:14 PM »
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...Now in regards to price, from a professional point of view, everything is too expensive unless you need it for commerce, then the price becomes less relevant.

I thought our original Canon 1ds' were expensive until we bought medium format backs, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema video cameras, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema lenses, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema lighting, which I thought was expensive until we bought cinema supports, monitors, post production computers, software.............................

I think it's the chicken and egg thing.   I don't know if the specialty camera market is small because the equipment is specialized, somewhat limited and more expensive, or is the market small because the equipment is specialized, somewhat limited and more expensive?


IMO

BC

I'd like to keep going with this idea because I'm very much into those thoughts recently.

I really think that the cost of the specialized equipments is in general totally overpriced and ultimatly scandalous.

You where talking about cine lightning. There is no refine high-tech in those if we think about it, it's a very old well known and rather simple circuitery. They are built to military standarts nothing more, but it's nothing much more than a brutal peice of metal. And it's priced a fortune.

But then, in my block, every month they film a silly tv show for the Canal + chanel (Jay Leno type, sorry for Jay...) that has absolutly nothing special and the medium displayed are simply huge. It costs a fortune per hour just to do something "crap" that target the sheep asleep masses. In the scandalous budgets and corruption that is the norm in a big part of this industry, 10.000, 100.000 is a joke. They would light your cigarette with a 1000 euros lighter it would not shock anybody and it will enter into the prod budget that nobody would notice it. Those costs are admited and there is no doubt for me that manufacturers are taking a great advantage of the situation.

But those days are numbered...

I'd really like the know the real cost of an average Arri HMI fresnel, and I would like to know for how much they sell those to our military forces by the way. The prices shouldn't be exactly the same than the ones we can access.

In the still world, to see the differences in print between a 5D2 and a muscled MF, a part from the maniacs because the clients-viewers aren't concern by those criterium but by the emotional response, you'd need to reach sizes that very few people are actually using-needing. But the cost of such an "excelence" is enormous.
In fact, we don't really pay for what we get, we pay for a spirit, a way to do things, a brand and a social status (expensive equipment).

Look at the softwares. What a strange situation indeed how suddenly suites that costed a fortuned and reserved to this industry's elite have, "just like that", gone down drastically and now accessible to almost eveybody. How strange...
Where the price then "real" ?
And I'm not sure that the very few who still are working with expensive Nucoda for ex are doing things that can't be done today with a much much cheaper equipment.

And the MF body designs. What have they done ? Nothing. Absolutly nothing! It's all about sensors and megapixels and even, they haven't been able to make a great lcd and significant progress in high isos. They use a body technology that is 50, 60 years old and looks adapted in a hurry to digital requirements. Nothing new, no great features, no designs improvements, almost no RAD in this. How much costs a new Mamiya-Phase without the back? Is it really serious, or are they really serious? I'd like to know.

Red comes into the scene ans started to put the mess in the cine world...it was refreshing indeed.

It's been the chicken with the golden eggs in the high-end.

I got the sensation that now they are going to eat stone eggs because the pushing generation is simply saying no (to stay polite) to those abuses (they build their own equipment, they pirat softwares, they hack cameras and they are much less asleep than their parents).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 03:34:51 PM by fredjeang » Logged
Radu Arama
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« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2012, 02:37:08 PM »
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Joris,

Pentax nomenclature is FA 645 are the old film lenses, D FA 645 are the new designed for digital (but also for the entire film circle). The UK price has a VAT of 20% included so if you buy from overseas you can claim the price without that e.g. 5823*0.80. BTW, in the US the lens will cost 4999 with a March availability foreseen.

Best,
Radu

Radu,

Thanks for the reply!  Are the FA lenses film lenses or are they lenses for the Pentax DSLRs?

BTW, at ₤3799 (US equivalent $5823) the new 25mm lens is not exactly cheap...

Best, Joris.
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« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2012, 04:10:10 PM »
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>>>I got the sensation that now they are going to eat stone eggs because the pushing generation is simply saying no (to stay polite) to those abuses (they build their own equipment, they pirat softwares, they hack cameras and they are much less asleep than their parents).<<<<

Exactly on target ! It does not count how to reach a result, it only counts you do it ! Either with iPhones, or GoProHero2, or cheap entry DSLRīs which are  more than "pretty good" already. Use lens adapters, hack Panaīs GH2, use magic lantern. Put the results in After Effects, Maya and be really good have training, LEARN and be creative, no : _ BE CREATIVE_ !!!!

This is how the Kids are today, not all but the best - and - all over the world, they grew up with this and they will show us how this will change our little "ProGearOnly" idea of professional Imaging-media-making. The wind is blowing. For some it will be a cosy and warm breeze when they open their sails and use it, the other ones will find their houses destroyed by tornados.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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