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Author Topic: D4  (Read 10925 times)
fredjeang
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2012, 04:12:14 AM »
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James,

my reflection on that subject , beside the different business models, leads me to this idea: if there is not in fact a deeper change happening.

I understand totally your business model and the choice you are making. IMO, they are logical, profitable and you are in position to take advantage of such a structure and grow.

You had a winning structure and a great reputation before all the motion irrupted into the scene, and it seems that you knew it already before it became a requierement from clients.
If I was in the same position, I'd probably have done the same kind of investments and more than probably choose to invest in Red more than in an Arri system.

But a part from low-middle or high-end realities, I'm sort of smelling that something is happening at every scale that will (or may) affect all the production pipeline regardless of the level.

It seems that the equipment industry is in fact leading and directing the way everybody's going to work with the technology. At first, we've seen that it was now possible for indy people and small structures to produce a visual content that would have cost hundred of thousands, and therefore would have been out of range for the most of us.
We thought that this was going to be truth only for the low-end and that the top market will stay immune, expensive, heavy and still out of range for most of us.
This is still true to date, but there are signs that it's changing.

At the same time we saw an explosion of home-made mini prods mixed with more serious content made with little cams and very low budgets that have educated the viewers "tastes". In other words, there is now a social and cultural acceptance and response on those kind of imagery.

We are seeing that the evolution of the technology is always leading us to smaller cams, each time more powerfull, each time cheaper, each time more capable. This was truth in stills and it seems that it's also coming in motion. The tech generaly has the effect to free us as well as it democratised everything. For ex, in still, an MF oblige to tether, light heavier... CaNikon came and put 100.000 exploitable isos on the table, with no tether dependance, reliable AF, more than enough resolution for most commercial apps and lighter, smaller, cheaper, faster, weather sealed, and a solid customer service worldwide.
Nobody would question now that a pro team can shoot absolutly stunning campaigns with a D3 or 1DMKxxx and the need for big MF stuff is not anymore a requirement, if not for the parade.

This, has marginalized heavier equipment like LF-MF, that are almost the same stuff since the lastest ice-age, evolve slow, are priced high and require also more infrastructure to make the thing works properly.

Well, I have the feeling that the small cameras in motion are and will do exactly the same. Red anticipated where all that goes and the growing need for small and contained prices with the Epic and I'm sure it's just a beginning.

I of course don't have a cristal ball, but maybe within 5-10 years max, the high-end plateaux will look very different that what we have now.

We see that in softwares. We don't have yet the softwares we need, but they will come. Once it's there, no more Da-Vinci export, no more conforming, no more requierement of 200 persons team b and c. I even think that this will also be clearly noticiable in Hollywood where what requires today a 20 person FX on Nuke will be done by 2 or 3 skilled people, faster, better and with lower costs.

Then comes a phone manufacturer and put a "steadycam" electronic system. It works. No, it's not the same as an experience steadycam operator, but they will refine this tech and sooner than later, a steadycam operator will have to recycle himself because nobody will hire them anymore. We will hear many complains at many levels because a lot of crafts and people will be affected.

In fact, the ones who are really leading the industry nowdays and literally impose what and how the industry will look like are the camera and software makers, and then the social networks like Vimeo are shapping the client's tastes.
There will be a resistance from the current pros involved in high-end motion, but the evolution seems unstopable.

When Nikon released the "1" system, I thought that they where crazy. Why the hell are they working on such a small sensor? significantly smaller than the m4/3 ? It didn't make sense to me. But then, I looked at the specs, I looked at the footage and I was blowed by the capability of this micro-system. Of course it's not Alexa, it's not Phase one imagery, but considering the size it's nothing less that impressive. Maybe Nikon wasn't as crazy as I thought. But it seems that those big electronic compagnies have the dev budgets and structures to change the game with micro-technology and not only in the low-end. I got the sensation that it's deeper and will affect all levels each time more.
 
  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 04:45:50 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 05:10:09 AM »
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Fred it is interesting.. direction of the industry

This ad is for a shopping centre close to me.. NOT a national chain or anything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us4ujMlnQbo&feature=related
And check all the 'pointless' people on set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9S3hR1D-A

But then you start thinking - the models - they are good, and need a hotel, and we have to close the street and we are hiring the VW for a day, and a driver etc

So the talent bill is going sky high

At that point its getting expensive to have delays, so better have a spare camera, and we don't want to mis focus so we will have a puller, etc etc

So half of my thinks I could have shot it on a DSLR with an assistant two lights and a reflector and half of me thinks - no the big production thing is right

On the other side this advert (of the boy waiting for christmas) cost millions.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLOnR1s74o

But others seemed to make pretty good spoof versions of the same advert 6 hours !

One thing I can say is that it is quite hard to persuade people to do (commission) things differently from yesterday

In their shoes why would you change if what worked yesterday worked - to change is to risk and a lot of people don't do that while working (for someone)

Another side of me thingk it will change partly due to cultural shifts or something - I have been thinking of suggesting that I can shoot for people with Instagram or one of the other Polaroid App Ipone style cameras

I worry that if I don't offer this 'look'/service that some desiger will hire a 10year old who does because they are cooler than boring old me

Its like web design - 5 years ago if you couldn't afford a designer you linked to your blog - now having a static site looks so old, and a blog site is much cooler and more with it

S







« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 05:19:30 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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Rob C
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 05:26:05 AM »
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But a part from low-middle or high-end realities, I'm sort of smelling that something is happening at every scale that will (or may) affect all the production pipeline regardless of the level.

We are seeing that the evolution of the technology is always leading us to smaller cams, each time more powerfull, each time cheaper, each time more capable. This was truth in stills and it seems that it's also coming in motion. The tech generaly has the effect to free us as well as it democratised everything.

Then comes a phone manufacturer and put a "steadycam" electronic system. It works. No, it's not the same as an experience steadycam operator, but they will refine this tech and sooner than later, a steadycam operator will have to recycle himself because nobody will hire them anymore. We will hear many complains at many levels because a lot of crafts and people will be affected.
 
  


Couldn't resist, Fred. Saw this and thought of you. However, even wearing its winter woolies, like here, Riva can never democratise. It wouldn't be Riva, which is the whole point. The other point, I've shot more with this mobile in the past few weks than with any of the Nikons! Why? It's light; it's always around, and I don't have to carry a stupid bag or tripod. Just what the M9 should be, could be, if at a decent price. But then it's the Riva of cameras, isn't it?

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 05:39:26 AM by Rob C » Logged

fredjeang
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2012, 05:27:55 AM »
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Fred it is interesting.. direction of the industry

This ad is for a shopping centre close to me.. NOT a national chain or anything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us4ujMlnQbo&feature=related
And check all the 'pointless' people on set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9S3hR1D-A

But then you start thinking - the models - they are good, and need a hotel, and we have to close the street and we are hiring the VW for a day, and a driver etc

So the talent bill is going sky high

At that point its getting expensive to have delays, so better have a spare camera, and we don't want to mis focus so we will have a puller, etc etc

So half of my thinks I could have shot it on a DSLR with an assistant two lights and a reflector and half of me thinks - no the big production thing is right

On the other side this advert (of the boy waiting for christmas) cost millions.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLOnR1s74o

But others seemed to make pretty good spoof versions of the same advert 6 hours !

One thing I can say is that it is quite hard to persuade people to do (commission) things differently from yesterday

In their shoes why would you change if what worked yesterday worked - to change is to risk and a lot of people don't do that while working (for someone)

Another side of me thingk it will change partly due to cultural shifts or something - I have been thinking of suggesting that I can shoot for people with Instagram or one of the other Polaroid App Ipone style cameras

I worry that if I don't offer this 'look'/service that some desiger will hire a 10year old who does because they are cooler than boring old me

Its like web design - 5 years ago if you couldn't afford a designer you linked to your blog - now having a static site looks so old, and a blog site is much cooler and more with it

S

Amazing Morgan! This is exactly the perfect example of what I don't want to do, set included. Even thinking high-end.

All the satelite people, specially the ultra-stressed prod girls with their bic pens  who's only function is to move air (for that I rather buy a fan)...it's unbearable. I can't stand it.

(I ignored that the Smith have been covered by a female singer).

Rob, thanks for the Riva. Now we need some girls there and shoot. Such a boat like that is too sad on winter time. I've seen that you are using your mobile, you also created a dedicated section in your website.
Maybe you should have a look here: http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Nikon-1-Cameras/index.page
They gain clients among the pros.

Back on the topic, I think that habits will change when clients will start to realise that there are a bunch of wild guys arround the globe that are doing great stuff on a budget, without any orthodoxy and it works.
It reminds me of the WWII. German came with light manouverable combat tanks and took everybody by surprise. Other countries had outdated tactics and super heavy equipments. The Panzers gear and tactics where different, speed, manouverability, surprise effect etc...and they reduced to dust the arrogant outdated tactics and habits of the allies.
I was reading Julius Cesar military tactics, same philosophy. He had on reserve a very light and fast manouverable corp that was strictly under his personal command, always waiting. At one point on the battle, he would send them on the weakest point and they would literally change the issue of the battle.

Everybody who breaks the established rules is in a greater position. (Look at Apple, Red etc...)

It seems that something similar is happening in our industry.
"pirats" filmakers with very light equipment, DSLRs or Epics and low budget may win each time more contracts if they are really good.
The technology will allow more and more that. That's the key point, tech. I doubt the current panorama will stay as it for much longuer. If things are that good and cost 10 times less because instead of 20 people ultra specialized you have 3 multi-specialized who do the same and replaced the truck by a car they can park everywhere, helicopters by radio guided hexa or octocopters, clients won't be silly.

Check Testino web. He has motion campaigns, properly shooted with high budgets, and then he has a movie section of diaries. Look and compare. It's very interesting.

But I can be totally wrong.

  


« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:37:59 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2012, 06:41:13 AM »
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Trouble is the girl with the biro is doing something

That road closed down shot - how do you keep the traffic out? you have to have the girl down the end of the road, to stop the traffic - maybe the rest of the day she does nothing - but at that moment she was needed

I think there is space for highly talented micro crew - thats my interest - hurlburt calls it 'elite team' (although his bunch look like interns to me most of them)

People who can stop the traffic, or hold a reflector or - and this is the talent - pull focus or maybe operate a steadicam

The last film (camera assistant) I was on sometimes I pulled focus - we had some complex shots - but many shots the DP was capable of doing it himself - then I could do something else

--

In terms of clients seeing good stuff that is difficult - look at James work - no disrespect - the reason  I cannot pitch at that level is 10% photography and 90% subject matter, track record reputation - its a difficult circle to break

Because clients don't really look at the photography - but the subject and the rep of the creative team..

S
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fredjeang
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2012, 09:24:24 AM »
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I'd rather hire a local homeless and give him the double of money for traffic control or any of the peripherical tasks. Those girls are there because there are into the system but their real role is close to zero, in fact no, most of the time they would put you on nerves because they are overstressed and jump from one side to another.
Each time I see one with a paper and a pen, I know she's going to stress me and everybody else. Even when they ask coffees for the crew it seems that the world is going to collapse and would stress the waiter.

Last time I was on a big set, there was 1/5 of the people that were doing absolutly nothing, but where "invited" by prod. Actually after a while the director fired everybody that was not usefull and set cleared-up like by magic, but as you imagine it wasn't a very friendly moment.  It's amazing.

Am I right when I say that there is an enormous amount of wastefulness and abuses in this industry (without the desire to generalize)? All very glam, very chic, very...formidable where orbite an incredible amount of satelites of all sort wich roles are...we don't really know.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:48:24 AM by fredjeang » Logged
billy
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2012, 10:58:04 AM »
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I'd rather hire a local homeless and give him the double of money for traffic control or any of the peripherical tasks. Those girls are there because there are into the system but their real role is close to zero, in fact no, most of the time they would put you on nerves because they are overstressed and jump from one side to another.
Each time I see one with a paper and a pen, I know she's going to stress me and everybody else. Even when they ask coffees for the crew it seems that the world is going to collapse and would stress the waiter.

Last time I was on a big set, there was 1/5 of the people that were doing absolutly nothing, but where "invited" by prod. Actually after a while the director fired everybody that was not usefull and set cleared-up like by magic, but as you imagine it wasn't a very friendly moment.  It's amazing.

Am I right when I say that there is an enormous amount of wastefulness and abuses in this industry (without the desire to generalize)? All very glam, very chic, very...formidable where orbite an incredible amount of satelites of all sort wich roles are...we don't really know.

Ahmen brother. Simply put this kinda set only saps creativity from the shoot.
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2012, 04:16:44 PM »
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Lets recap the basic joys of a decent full frame DSLR
 
Full frame give the traditional photography perspective and DOF, a look we have seen and loved since 1930 in the images of Henri Cartier Bresson ...
This is a little off-topic, but

1. Photographers like Henri Cartier Bresson used the relatively new 36x24mm format because this was smaller than the other formats in use then, and offered the advantages of smaller, lighter, more agile equipment than the alternatives. So it is a bit perverse and anachronistic to invoke that choice as an argument in favor of a larger format, and more so in reference to the Nikon D4, a camera which I suspect Cartier Bresson would have rejected as being far too big and heavy for his purposes.

2. Format size has no effect on perspective, which depends solely on camera position relative to the subject.

3. DOF differences only really arise near the extreme of using the minimum available f-stop, while for the great majority of photography that is done at smaller apertures (probably more so now than in Cartier Bresson's day, due to the ability to use far higher ISO speeds, and so to get adequate shutter speed at higher f-stops, making it easier to avoid blurring from both out-of-focus effects and subject and camera motion) the difference between formats is just that a given DOF is achieved with a higher f-stop in a larger format, and then equal shutter speed is achieved with a higher ISO speed.

My guess is that today's heirs to HCB are more likely to be choosing between Micro Four Thirds, Sony NEX, Samsung NX, and Nikon One options than to be deciding between Nikon D4 and Canon 1DX.
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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2012, 04:33:48 PM »
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No more off topic than anything else !

its a fair point - would HCB use a .. compact camera .. or even a phone

As for the old DOF argument lets not go there !

Im used to shooting stills on an H1 or a D3 so the smaller chips don't give me the look I want personally which tends to be at the open end of the spectrum

Now shooting video I like to use zoom lenses and that gets hard on a smaller sensor - most only sharpen up a F4 so you could be shooting F4 on 'S35/APC' which really has a different look to F2.8 on a FF35

Lets not forget a lot of movies are shot with very very fast glass on the smaller sensor, so to replicate that look with affordable glass a larger sensor is IMO desirable

Of course with the nikon D4 (to return to the topic!) One gets three sensor sizes when shooting video which looks fantastic

I think my initial comments on the stills capabilities were more aimed at some video people who might read my blog - I was alluding to the fact the D4 is a professionally capable stills camera unlike (in my opinion) cameras like the GH2 which may offer similar LPI/Bitrates in their video functionality compared to the D4

S

« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 04:39:16 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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fredjeang
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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2012, 02:30:27 AM »
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Morgan,

The GH2, as you point, is not a pro-line still camera. It's a plastic toy compared to the Nikon.

But... things aren't that absolute in the real world as you know and the fact that we could or could not consider the GH2 as a suitable tool for commercial stills depends a lot in our condionning on photographic equipment.

The fact is that when I bought the GH2, I obviously didn't think that this camera would have been suitable for still imagery. Logical. But then, the files are exactly similar to the old 17MP 1D (don't know if you remember) that yes was a pro camera, used and abused in press and editos not a long time ago and it would be absolutly impossible in print magazines to bet wich's wich.

Then, the GH2 sensor is 18MP on wich it's been used 16. (it's a multi aspect-ratio camera). You are using the 12MP Nikon D3 if I understand well, and you were pointing that your clients have never complained about those 12MP reso. Well, I'd like to see a blind test of the same subject in still with the D3 and the GH2 downsampled to 12MP. I bet (but I can be wrong) that it would absolutly be impossible to make the differences between both cams, in terms of output except of course in extreme isos where the GH2 can't compeat with a FF sensor. But up to 800 I'm sure that the image quality you would obtain is exactly in the same league.
That sort of testings remain to be done and seen, but we'd have big surprises.

Big difference are in camera robustness and designed as a profesional tool. Here are the real differences IMO, but not that much in file quality up at "normal" isos.

O by the way: http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM
on the left side of the screen, choose Nikon D3x- on the right side choose Panasonic GH2.
Then choose the same picture for both, then click on each side image to display the picture at 100% and compare. Do that with different configurations...
That's very interesting.

Those big manufacturers have managed to evolve the tech to a point that they can deliver in their micro-cams an image quality that was unthinkable not a long time ago.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:39:52 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2012, 02:36:08 AM »
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I absolutely agree about the lo iso file on the GH2 being of good quality

I have big publications with the 4mp nikon D1 !

I photograph everything from small hotel bathrooms (14mm ff) through to some sport 400 2.8

Needing good AF sometimes high burst - all the stuff that a pro DSLR gives in daily use

I cannot imagine the GH could compete on those items

Also its nice to look through IMO a large GG viewfinder

I note many of our little debates you are talking image quality I am talking robust tool

I have one friend who really rates the GH2 (mage wide) - but finds he cannot hit the buttons because it is too small!

S
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:41:37 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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fredjeang
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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2012, 02:46:13 AM »
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I absolutely agree about the lo iso file on the GH2 being of good quality

I have big publications with the 4mp nikon D1 !

I photograph everything from small hotel bathrooms (14mm ff) through to some sport 400 2.8

Needing good AF sometimes high burst - all the stuff that a pro DSLR gives in daily use

I cannot imagine the GH could compete on those items

Also its nice to look through IMO a large GG viewfinder

I note many of our little debates you are talking image quality I am talking robust tool

S
Exactly.
You point well where the real differences are. I didn't think you where blind on that, but I wrote that in general because I read so many time about IQ IQ IQ...you know, and the associated legends and false infos that circulate everywhere.
The point you mentionned are in fact the important points. Ergonomics, AF, reliability etc...

I tried the GH2 in the studio with stills, it works so so...it's not a pro tool by any means. It can be done but the painfull way.
But too many people tend to think that this wouldn't be suitable for commercial prints, well it is...

And the irony is that many many people think that they need big sensors, pro cameras of all sort to obtain good imagery and they will never walk into a pro set-up in their life but they have the mystic in mind. That's why we get all the time those absurd sensor pixel race etc...

I'm not far from thinking that it's a manouver from manufacturers that have literaly washed the collective brains with "megapixels and size sensor". Hoppefully this is changing.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:55:47 AM by fredjeang » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2012, 05:14:30 PM »
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And the irony is that many many people think that they need big sensors, pro cameras of all sort to obtain good imagery and they will never walk into a pro set-up in their life but they have the mystic in mind. That's why we get all the time those absurd sensor pixel race etc...

This is very true. Compare any of the recent mirrorless cameras to the original Canon 1Ds... the new small guys offer similar DR and higher resolutions...

Back in the days, the 1ds was used to compete with medium format film (whether it really did compete or not is another debate).  Cheesy

We have fewer excuses everyday not to be capturing amazing images.  Grin

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2012, 06:11:00 PM »
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This may interest some of you:

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/01/09/pma-qa-with-nikon-today-on-the-d4-send-your-questions-in.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2012, 08:25:12 PM »
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For one simple reason I have zero interest in the D4 for motion. Lack of 24 fps.
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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2012, 09:21:56 PM »
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For one simple reason I have zero interest in the D4 for motion. Lack of 24 fps.

Have you double checked the specs? I thought it had 24 fps.

I just doubled checked my self, and it says 24, 25 and 30 fps in 1080p.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2012, 09:29:45 PM »
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its a fair point - would HCB use a .. compact camera .. or even a phone

...

Lets not forget a lot of movies are shot with very very fast glass on the smaller sensor, so to replicate that look with affordable glass a larger sensor is IMO desirable
Morgan, that is a great point, and suddenly makes me think that, contrary to the trend with still cameras of a shift to smaller formats due in part to the greater cost difference for larger sensors, professional motion picture cameras might move towards larger formats than with film, because the biggest cost penalty of larger formats for movie making is probably film itself, and that is gone. And for example, Kubrick could have shot his notorious candle-lit scene with an off-the-shelf lens on a D4 or 1DX set to ISO infinity.

P.S. a nice coincidence that just after our HCB discussion, FujiFilm announces its very Leica-like X-Pro1 and prime lenses.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 09:40:16 PM by BJL » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2012, 07:42:44 AM »
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This morning in the corner of my street:
2 big Scania trucks + 1 van. At least 6 Satchlers out of the truck and many more inside. Each of those cost about 6000 bucks.
Couldn't see the cameras because I was in a hurry and couldn't stay.
1 huge climatized truck Mobile unit prod, at least 20 people on set, security guards from Prosegur etc...all the circus in its splendor.
And all that to film a silly comic guy doing a one-man show for a red-neck prod. This wasn't the Rolling-Stones.

The money and costs per hour displayed there are huge.

Big sensors ? 

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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2012, 10:57:18 AM »
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In a couple of years this is going to be a rare sight, because the way things are going there will be no need to use so much stuff. The end user will be viewing product on either tablets and mobile phones and nothing else. My mid twenties son only uses his phone now to surf the net and check his emails, he has no need to use his computer. He even uses a tablet to view movies too. Or if he want's a bigger screen he links it to the phone and has internet anywhere he wants.

Things are changing so fast that these tiny micro 4/3rd cameras are going to be the norm for much of the commercial stuff we see on the net, and the net is where it's at, maybe not completely yet but it will be in the future. Man the quality you can get out of a hacked GH2 is amazing.......truly astonishing out of such a cheap little camera. I'm so glad I hung on to all my old Nikon lenses.

Pete
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« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2012, 07:12:12 PM »
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Have you double checked the specs?

Bernard,

Seems I got the wrong information. Thanks for the clarification!

Best,
B
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