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Author Topic: Broncolor or Profoto?  (Read 9191 times)
ctz
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2012, 03:02:20 PM »
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Can anyone show me some examples of satellite dish? I'm curious and I didn't find any at a quick google search.
Thanks.
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Peter Devos
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2012, 03:14:33 PM »
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http://www.google.be/search?q=broncolor+satellite&hl=nl&client=safari&pwst=1&rls=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=nVgLT6y4I9Go8QORutgK&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBEQ_AUoAQ&biw=2316&bih=1273

 Wink Smiley Cheesy Grin
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ctz
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2012, 03:35:50 PM »
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 Embarrassed Sorry, I meant "examples of satellite dish ILLUMINATION" i.e. how does an actual photo shot/lighten WITH a Satellite Dish looks like.
Thanks, Peter  Wink

later edit:
ok, got something in the broncolor brochure.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 03:53:46 PM by ctz » Logged
andreagenor
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2012, 05:16:39 PM »
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geesbert, Your information was very interesting, because I do many product shoot in tabletop, but at the same time I do people in studio and on location.
I know that, there aren't perfect product for all situations, but all informations and experiences is good for my decision.
I didn't know that Bron Scoro can't individual model light in power pack, its is no pratical really.

ctz, look this http://vimeo.com/31853135
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ctz
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2012, 10:40:18 PM »
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thanks!
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2012, 02:31:55 PM »
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geesbert, Your information was very interesting, because I do many product shoot in tabletop, but at the same time I do people in studio and on location.
I know that, there aren't perfect product for all situations, but all informations and experiences is good for my decision.
I didn't know that Bron Scoro can't individual model light in power pack, its is no pratical really.

ctz, look this http://vimeo.com/31853135


Hi Andreagenor,

this has been covered before, and it is simply wrong: Broncolor Scoro can of course switch every lampsocket on and off seperately by simply pressing a dedicated button for every outlet, no idea where this nonsense comes from. I have been working with both, profoto and bron and I often use (and never want to miss) those special features of the grafit / scoro packs. You can have frosted domes for bron heads as well, lighting quality depends how you use your equipment, not which brand you use. Both brands have their specific pros and cons.
In your original query you asked about the senso, not the scoro, that´s a whole different story...
Regarding flash duration differences between profoto and bron, there were a lot of open questions in that thread about the (profoto-biased) h2h test, my personal experience meets those from the biwa blog.

Cheers, Ulf
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andreagenor
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« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2012, 03:00:19 PM »
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UlfKrentz,  I really asked about the Senso, but after I see Senso features and it is more like Acute2R.
I use Mamiya with Leaf Aptus and I no need Ultra Fast charging time, because my camera is read about 1.7 second... But I want control.
Profoto D4 appears cool for me because I want use it in many situations like tabletop, people in studio and on location too.
I like the four lamp sockets and individual control.
The same way as Broncolor Scoro... is so cool.
The pricing is the question now, because D4 is about $7,587.00 without heads and Broncolor Scoro A4 non "S" Price:$10,036.50
With this difference I can buy 3 D4 heads

This is a lot of money here and in Brazil I will pay 77% over this price with import tax

I really I don't know what I do. Smiley
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2012, 03:29:41 PM »
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snip

I really I don't know what I do. Smiley


Hi, the problem with both, senso and D4 is you both don´t buy in the high end line of the brands, so if you like to upgrade you´ll have to buy new heads as well. Hard to give any advice, especially with that amount of money involved. It all depends on your workflow and its future development.
What is not considered important right now might be essential in a few months. Try to do a hands on test, rent some stuff and work with it, if you really want control, you will probably have to bite the bullit and also go the bron route with grafit or scoro packs. We never regretted investing in this system.

Cheers, Ulf
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Dustbak
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« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2012, 03:40:48 PM »
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Not necessarily so. The D4 can take every head the Pro8Air can AND it can take the heads meant for the cheaper Acutes too. You can even mix them (though you have to be a bit careful with this) in 1 pack. If you plan on getting a Pro8Air eventually just buy the ProHeads right away and not the Acutes.

It can be even upgraded to the Air version. The only downside I found is that the D4Air can only be remotely used with the Profoto Studio 3 software and not the much better Profoto Studio AIR software.

The D4 is also slower, certainly when you are working full power. It has also a longer flash duration but still pretty good though.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:51:11 PM by Dustbak » Logged
UlfKrentz
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« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2012, 04:37:24 PM »
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Yes ok, of course, but the OP was thinking of buying "D4" heads. This problem also did not apply to bron before they introduced the senso packs and heads  Shocked Quite a change and definitely something to be aware of!

Cheers, Ulf
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geesbert
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2012, 02:54:59 PM »
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Hi Andreagenor,

this has been covered before, and it is simply wrong: Broncolor Scoro can of course switch every lampsocket on and off seperately by simply pressing a dedicated button for every outlet, no idea where this nonsense comes from. I have been working with both, profoto and bron and I often use (and never want to miss) those special features of the grafit / scoro packs. You can have frosted domes for bron heads as well, lighting quality depends how you use your equipment, not which brand you use. Both brands have their specific pros and cons.
In your original query you asked about the senso, not the scoro, that´s a whole different story...
Regarding flash duration differences between profoto and bron, there were a lot of open questions in that thread about the (profoto-biased) h2h test, my personal experience meets those from the biwa blog.

Cheers, Ulf

of course you can switch off the individual heads, but you cannot switch off individual model lights from the pack while keeping the flash on. it is either all model lights on or off. individual model lights have can be switched off by a small switch on the head, but not on the pack. This is a feature I am using constantly with my D4, because I use a lot of mirrors to bounce back my lights, so I have to see exactly what every single head is doing.

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mmurph
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2012, 03:34:34 PM »
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Of course! I assumed it would read after the first review.
Here is the link if anyone missed it: http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting-H2H-Profoto-Pro-8a-2400-Air-vs-Broncolor-Scoro-A4S.html

THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST REVIEWS I HAVE EVER SEEN!  Plesae do not refer people to that review.


In many cases, they are just plain wrong.  For example:

"The Broncolor reflectors take the more expensive, and somewhat non-standard 12” grid spots" WRONG

This is not true at all.  The standard P70 reflector uses an 8" grid, which they say the Profoto also uses.  I use speedotron grids in my reflectors that I buy used at $5 a piece, rather than the Bron or Profoto grids, which are about $100 each new or used.


"The Broncolor heads come in two varieties: a 3200 Joule and a 1600 Joule head. You never really want to run a 1600 with 3200 Joules of power. It gets very dramatic. This is not only inconvenient, but dangerous…and unnecessary." WRONG

The Broncolor power pack knows what the maximum power is that a head will take. They are coded. If you plug a 1600 Ws head into a 3200 Ws pack, IT WILL NOT LET YOU dial in 3200 Ws to that head!

The 1600 Ws tubes and protecting glass are cheaper than the 3200 Ws.  So Bron offers the customer an option of a cheaper alternative  ...


And that seems to be the problem with this review at every point.  In tehir lack of familiarity, they choose that which is simpler on first blush, not necessarily the solution that offers a better option in the long run.  And because they don't know/undertstand the Bron system beyond the most superficial level, they make mistaken assumptions, menu settings, and preferences at each step of the review!

I don't feel like taking the time to go through their review in detail right now.  But when I first read it perhaps a year ago, I found fault with their assumptions, decfision making, and recommendations at every step of the review. 


Now I think Profoto is a great system, as is Broncolor.  I have used both, as well as Speedotron, Dynalite, Norman, and others.

Although I am currently using Broncolor, for a US photopgrapher I think that in many instances Profoto may be a better choice because of their market penetration here (Broncolor has not marketed an entry level system like the Acute to get photogs started with, and continuing to use, their system, a big, big mistake in my mind.)

But please be careful with the comparison reviews you find online.  In many of theses reviews, like the PDN comparison bewteen the two packs, you have reletively inexperienced and even naive (non-studio photogs using a pack system for the first time!) people conducting the review.

Best,
Michael

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mmurph
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2012, 04:05:53 PM »
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I see two options, first Broncolor Senso A4 2400 and second Profoto D4 2400.

Personally, whichever yopu buy, I would buy used. My rule of thumb is to expect to pay about 50% of the new price for lightly used equipment in Excellent+ condition.  I very, very rarely buy new Broncolor equipment.  If you buy used equipment at a good price, you can usually resell it later at near the cost you paid, reducing your cost of ownership by a huge amount!

You are unlikely to find the Senso available used, because it is so new.  But you might look at other mid-tier Broncolor products that are more comparable to the D4, as the Senso is Bron's entry level pack, more like the Profoto Acute.

If flash duration is not a top priority, Broncolor Topas packs with 2 fully asynchronous channels and LCD adjustments in .1 stop over a 6.7 to 7.5 stop range are a great basic pack. The Topas A2 are about 6 kilo, very light and portable for location use. They are a delight to use.  I love them as my daily go-to packs!

The Topas A2 1600 Ws packs are selling used in the $1,200 range (I sold one like that with only 7,500 pops/exposures on it), the Topas A4 3200 Ws for around $1,600 US.

The Broncolor Verso does have fairly short flash duration. It also makes an excellent studio or battery operated location unit.  I sold a Verso A2 1200 Ws pack with RFS for around $3,500. Battery packs are around $600.  A bit more for the Verso A4 2400 Ws.

The Broncolor Grafit A4 RFS have been selling between $3,500 to $5,000 US. Less for an A2 or a non-RFS version.

One Broncolor pack that I still use daily has 290,000 pops on it. Another that I got from a car studio has 880,000+ pops.  So something with under 10,000 pops is still almost brand new!

The Picolites haeds are small, portable heads about the size of a can of soda. They sell used for $450 to $550.  The Unilite are a beautiful in bewteen size. Solid metal body. Harder to find used, but about $800 range used.   The Pulso G2 and G4 are a bit over $1,000 used.

The older Pulso run around $550 to $650 used, the Primo about $450.

Good luck!

Best, Michael
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ctz
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2012, 04:07:34 PM »
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But please be careful with the comparison reviews you find online.  In many of theses reviews [...] you have reletively inexperienced and even naive (non-studio photogs using a pack system for the first time!) people conducting the review.


+1!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 04:09:50 PM by ctz » Logged
mmurph
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2012, 05:18:41 PM »
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FWIW, I also think that original review posted that was pro-Bron was also a little limited and one sided.

The truth is that the technology here is incredibly sophisticated and complex. This is an interesting example from the Bron USA blog about what is actually going on with short flash duration.

Quite one-sided again in this case, but the complexity of the technology/engineering is fascinating!!

http://blog.bronimaging.com/2010/04/profoto-not-working-cancel-the-shoot-no-call-broncolor-instead/

"Rental Shop Manager: Nothing special, just an environmental portrait, but the wind is blowing and the wardrobe is getting blurred. They thought it was their lens or digital back, but we swapped that out and tested the cameras without the strobes and the camera is good. It is definitely the lights.

BIG Customer Support: Yes, it’s the lights. Profoto 8a packs use a technology that they call PiPE. PiPE stands for Pre ignition Plasma Establishing. What it means is that they use a preflash to warm up the gasses in the flash tube so that they can get a short flash duration…but the problem is that the pre-flash actually affects the exposure and causes the “blur” which normally shows itself as a ghost second image."

OK, one sided propaganda for sure! But I remember one comparison review of the Pro 8A and Scoro that started out "I haven't ever used studio packs before ..." And the PDN one that I mentioned spent about 1/3 of the review talking about superficial things - color of the packs, etc. Cant find it without my subscription - if anyone can quote, I just remember it was god-awful for a pro mag!

Cheers! Michael
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 05:33:41 PM by mmurph » Logged
mmurph
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2012, 08:47:29 PM »
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This is a pretty good review of the Senso. They also didn't understand a few things, per their notes, but it looks like they corrected them after talking with Bron:

http://photoartsmonthly.com/blog/2011/04/15/introduction-the-broncolor-senso-a2/
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Dustbak
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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2012, 03:30:59 AM »
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BTW, I am now in the situation where I am pondering whether to get some Proheads instead of the Acutes for my D4 (eventually I know I will be getting a Pro8Air).

Does anyone know what the differences are between the Acute heads and the Proheads? Are the Proheads significantly sturdier and stronger? (they are the same size, weight & dimensions. Everything appears to be the same besides the locking handle).
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2012, 09:54:24 AM »
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BTW, I am now in the situation where I am pondering whether to get some Proheads instead of the Acutes for my D4 (eventually I know I will be getting a Pro8Air).

Does anyone know what the differences are between the Acute heads and the Proheads? Are the Proheads significantly sturdier and stronger? (they are the same size, weight & dimensions. Everything appears to be the same besides the locking handle).

Hi Dustbak,

The ProHeads are designed to work with the higher voltage of Pro6 freeze / Pro7 / Pro8. AFAIK thats´s why you cannot use the Acute Heads.
...and that´s what I was talking about, might not be cheap...
The higher voltage is key to the shorter flash duration especially when using high power output. If you are looking for a short flash duration you may also consider the use of twin tube heads (also with the D4).

HTH, Cheers, Ulf

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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2012, 12:33:32 PM »
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of course you can switch off the individual heads, but you cannot switch off individual model lights from the pack while keeping the flash on. it is either all model lights on or off. individual model lights have can be switched off by a small switch on the head, but not on the pack. This is a feature I am using constantly with my D4, because I use a lot of mirrors to bounce back my lights, so I have to see exactly what every single head is doing.




I hope I´m wrong? You cannot completely switch off a single outlet with the D4? This is something we frequently need and use, turn off a specific outlet (flash and modelling light) without disconnecting the lamp base.

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Dustbak
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2012, 03:01:04 PM »
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Thx Ulf, I was also hoping the Proheads are a but sturdier than the Acutes. Yes, these heads are not particularly cheap but what is.

I think Geesbert meant to say you cannot do so with the Broncolor. I know you can with the D4. With my D4Air I can do it even wireless.
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