Epson 7900 from the inside - out

[WallyM]

Not sure what this means but I challenge anyone here to find a new Epson Stylus Pro 7900, or 9900, listed for sale at B&H or Adorama...    
 

The 3880 was also removed from the B&H website just a few days after I ordered one in late February.  All of the wide format printers were removed, but the 3880 is back now (it was still missing 3 days ago).  The current price of the 3880 is the same as I paid 3 weeks ago.

Wally

[gwhitf]

I really do think these forums are magnets for the "squeeky wheel" ---and that's not to say that complaints are not legitimate; I'm sure the pain is very real.  But there are far too many variables to make any concrete conclusions.  (I call it hasty generalizations).

I've been reading this forum for a long time. Years and years. I've own 7600, 7800, 9880, and now 7900.

I do not remember any thread, related to these other printers that generated anywhere near this amount of almost exact failure conditions -- LLK blocked, and almost nothing makes it break free. And at a time when any 9900 or 7900 is still a relatively new printer, no matter when it was purchased.

No, this is not Science, or Exact Data Collection, but my Smell Test makes me wonder what's going on. Why would ALL these people be having almost the exact same issue....? And yes, I've got a horse in this race, because my LLK is blocked on my 7900, but I'm trying to be level-headed about it. Yes, I'm upset and disappointed that my printer has been sitting idle for weeks now, unable to print anything other than horizontal banding. I just want to see if someone solves this, so that I can know whether I've got to pony up to the bar with Decision One, or just chuck this almost perfectly good, very low volume printer, right into a Dumpster.

[Anton Omaz]

I wouldn't normally respond to what is likely a troll post but since my name is the one mentioned here it is deserving of comment.  We know that Epson monitors this forum (and likely others as well).  As I noted, they are the ONLY ones who know the percentage of printers that require a service call when under warranty.  No company stays in business for a long time if they market a substandard product.  Customers will quickly move on to other manufacturers.  Your support of 'clic' is fine for you but I see nothing that would persuade me that he has a sufficient background in engineering or quality control that makes what he says the last word on the subject.  I know of two people who have 7900s that have not had any printing problems, you would be a great fool were I to say that this means all 7900 printers are problem free.  Anecdotes do not make data.

Alan,

I don’t understand your point, or why you keep repeating that the only ones who have data are Epson.  That is self evident, but since they are playing dead, the rest of us have to interpret the little bits of information we have.  And so far the case has pretty much been made that there is a manufacturing or engineering issue that has resulted in a few cases (maybe not an enormous amount, but enough to be a concern) of head failures, that under any measure is utterly premature.

Sacredearth and Gemmtech made a very good case that most honorable manufacturers in comparable situations, being electronics, cars, you name it, typically would be gracious in such a situation, in order to preserve their customer base.

Your statement “No company stays in business for a long time if they market a substandard product.  Customers will quickly move on to other manufacturers.” is seductive, but does not verify here.  Canon for instance has the 8300 currently 50% cheaper than the 9900 once you factor in the amount of ink that the printer ships with, yet they sell 1 for every 9 that Epson sells.  Add the controversy that we are all talking about here, and it does not seem that your theory holds water.  At least if customers are moving away, it is not quickly, which I find mind boggling, but a stubborn fact.  And really by dispersing that kind of myth, you participate in the perpetuation of Epson’s isolation from any real competition and incentive to resolve this issue. 

Nobody says that Epson x900s are substandard products, they just say that there are some lemons, probably more than usual, but regardless of how many more or less, there are lemons, and Epson should draw the consequences from that, and the victims users should not be the ones who bear the price. 

I would like to purchase a 9900 myself, but as long as I do not hear a valid explanation for the situation here, and see a solution, I will stay away, or buy a Canon, which is probably the most sensible choice anyway.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I've been reading this forum for a long time. Years and years. I've own 7600, 7800, 9880, and now 7900.

I do not remember any thread, related to these other printers that generated anywhere near this amount of almost exact failure conditions -- LLK blocked, and almost nothing makes it break free. And at a time when any 9900 or 7900 is still a relatively new printer, no matter when it was purchased.

No, this is not Science, or Exact Data Collection, but my Smell Test makes me wonder what's going on. Why would ALL these people be having almost the exact same issue....? And yes, I've got a horse in this race, because my LLK is blocked on my 7900, but I'm trying to be level-headed about it. Yes, I'm upset and disappointed that my printer has been sitting idle for weeks now, unable to print anything other than horizontal banding. I just want to see if someone solves this, so that I can know whether I've got to pony up to the bar with Decision One, or just chuck this almost perfectly good, very low volume printer, right into a Dumpster.

There were no real alternatives to Epson up to the the 9800 generation. Then Canon and HP appeared with suitable wide formats and Epson had to speed up its answers to that challenge. With the introductions of new models Epson claimed that new nozzle surface treatments would reduce clog issues, the competition already showed better behaviour on that aspect. Potential buyers must have been attracted by that promise which seems to be kept on the 3800 and 3880 but not so on the x900 and possibly not on the x980 models. For whatever reason. I think both the unfulfilled promise of an improvement and the availability of alternative wide formats without those issues must have created disappointment that caused these threads.

Epson's service policies is not enforcing public relations either. Canon wide formats did have issues too with heads in three generations since 2006, Canon showed more flexibility in replacing those heads in and out of warranty. The costs for that extra service must have been lower for Canon as the heads can be user replaceable, part of the total concept of thermal head printers. For Epson head failure on a printer above the 17" models means sending a service man to whatever location.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[jeverton]

In the Brochure
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/SeriesSureColorS30670/Overview.do?RMID=PI_20120315_S_Series_Signage&RRID=EPSONP300307
 on page 30 they make a very strong to point out what might be expected of these heads under variable user conditions, and stress "maintenance" to prolong the head life.
4 - The print head is a maintenance part which the user is responsible to replace when necessary. However, Epson covers head replacement while
the printer is under the Epson Preferred Limited Warranty and under any Preferred Plus Plan (limited or unlimited number of head replacements,
depending on the Preferred Plus Plan purchased). The life of the print head will vary depending on the user's print volume, print patterns and heater
temperature for print settings. Doing proper user maintenance of the print head will help prolong its life.


I'm sure these machines are designed for more use and abuse that the standard WF ones, but it really sounds like Epson almost expects problems, and covers their butts with a choice of extended warrantees with different head replacement options.  

I'm catching up on this thread... it's very interesting to see Epson's disclaimer being placed within the S30670 brochure on the warranty programs and head replacement(s). 

•   Footnote Definition 4:  I wonder why this statement is not included in the x900 series literature?  Plus, “Doing proper maintenance of the print head will help prolong its life.” What maintenance?  I’m not aware of a preventive schedule or recommendation from the manufacture.  Are we missing something here Epson???

Jeff

[jeverton]

Be aware that in the sign market with piëzohead printers squirting (eco)solvent inks, the maintenance and replacement of parts by third parties is much more common than in the aqueous ink based photo printer market.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Ernst - To what degree?  Is there something documented on the differences between maintenance and replacement of parts between the (eco)solvent ink and aqueous ink based printers?

Jeff

[jeverton]

I agree DeanChriss.  And I appreciate your posts.  I am not saying I won't buy Epson again either.  But I definitely I won't base my judgement to buy or not to buy, on their marketing claims like I did last time.  I'll read about them here before I read about them there.

+1 All the more reasons for us to be diligent on making our printer investments wisely.

Eric - Do you have an ETA on the print head repair?

Jeff

[Ernst Dinkla]

Ernst - To what degree?  Is there something documented on the differences between maintenance and replacement of parts between the (eco)solvent ink and aqueous ink based printers?

Jeff

I am not familiar with Epson's documented policies in both markets. I referred to what is common knowledge in the (eco)solvent printer market so far. DX4 and DX5 heads in that market are advertised and sold by third parties, often Epson 10000 heads that are split and equipped with ecosolvent resistant parts to be used in Roland and Mimaki ecosolvent printers. Check Alibaba for parts like that though Epson seems to make that grey market more difficult. 10 years ago the first Roland based ecosolvent printers were made by third party service companies before Roland itself got involved. An ecosolvent printer needs more care otherwise the heads are blocked in a month and no easy way to get them working again.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Eric Gulbransen]

Yes Jeff, Vladimir says by the end of this month he'll have the head done and on it's way back to us.  I am losing my mind waiting but finally having an answer will be worth it.

[iladi]

Ernst - To what degree?  Is there something documented on the differences between maintenance and replacement of parts between the (eco)solvent ink and aqueous ink based printers?

Jeff

yes. an ecosolvent printer must be cleaned once a week at last. that means: manual head clean, manual capping station and whiper clean. replace whiper every 6 months. replace capping station once or twice a year. replace dapers once or twice a year. but the inks are more agresive than waterbased inks and can corode and age some parts quicker than waterbase ink.
as the spare parts market. there many online shops that sell original spare parts for roland, mimaki, mutoh. at a far better price than buying directly from original. also there are more users tehnicaly cabale to self repair a big printer, change a head, a whiper, a capping station, even more. also the sign comunity is very helpfull in case of a failure.

[iladi]

An infrequently used printer appears to be a worst case scenerio for clog problems.
 

not necesarily. i have clogs on my epson 9700 (same mechanics as 9900 but CMYKCMYK ). and i have clogs while i print large graphics with large areas of solid colors. and i use dye inks not pigment (more fluid and thin inks). yes, you may say i'm not using epson's ink, that it may be the fault of the inks, refillable carts etc. it is possible. BUT. i have a mutoh with the same inks and the clogs are muuuuuch more rare. mutoh is printing on and on and it get cloged mainly if i have a head stike. but not while i'm printing. head clean is more efiicient when clogs occur and it  takes way less ink and time

[gwhitf]

An infrequently used printer appears to be a worst case scenerio for clog problems.

Please.

This would be akin to me buying a Nikon D3x, and after mostly sitting idle on the shelf for the first year or so, I get it out to shoot something, and roughly 15% of the pixels on the sensor are dead. Just because I used it infrequently?

This reminds me of what my father used to tell me when I was a kid: "Take your mother's car out on the freeway and drive it hard. She only drives it in town. What it needs is a good blowing-out, because she rarely drives it".

An almost new 7900, and right out of warranty, the LLK just locks up solid?

[Streetshooter]

Here I am about to take the plunge and buy a large format printer so this thread is very interesting to me. I have read all the posts from beginning to end and am quite incredulous at Epson's behaviour over this matter. You would have thought they would care about keeping any of their customers happy if there is a problem...and there clearly is a problem.

I have used Epson printers for years and have had problems but the printers were cheap so I swallowed and bought another. Several of my friends in the market for a large format printer have decided to buy Canon because of Epson's increasing reputation for ignoring their problems and complaints on their smaller domestic printers. This sort of behaviour reminds me of the days when Kodak thought they were untouchable and could do what they wanted despite customer concerns over some of their products. - in my case I was in a constant battle with them over their crap Kodachrome processing in the UK-  Look what has happened to them now.

All it would take would be for Epson to help these guys out with their printers and show some generosity. It would go some way to give a prospective buyer a bit of confidence that the printer he is just about to purchase isn't going to clog a few months down the line. Thanks to the internet lack of confidence in a product or a company can spread very quickly these days.

Pete

[jmlamont]

I have had a 7900 since September 2011, and had only minor clogging problems (once I turned off the automatic detection bug... I mean "feature"). And of course the print quality and everything else about the machine makes me happy, in fact extremely happy, every time I use it.

However, I can not help wondering why someone doesn't send the URL for this thread to someone high in Epson marketing? If they are deliberately ignoring us, this would make it explicit. If their behavior is due to ignorance of the problems here, then this would help to educate them. This issue, it seems to me, is too important to merely blow off steam here in a user forum. Action is called for if we are to have any peace of mind.

Anybody interested?

[jeverton]

Here I am about to take the plunge and buy a large format printer so this thread is very interesting to me. I have read all the posts from beginning to end and am quite incredulous at Epson's behaviour over this matter. You would have thought they would care about keeping any of their customers happy if there is a problem...and there clearly is a problem.

I have used Epson printers for years and have had problems but the printers were cheap so I swallowed and bought another. Several of my friends in the market for a large format printer have decided to buy Canon because of Epson's increasing reputation for ignoring their problems and complaints on their smaller domestic printers. This sort of behaviour reminds me of the days when Kodak thought they were untouchable and could do what they wanted despite customer concerns over some of their products. - in my case I was in a constant battle with them over their crap Kodachrome processing in the UK-  Look what has happened to them now.

All it would take would be for Epson to help these guys out with their printers and show some generosity. It would go some way to give a prospective buyer a bit of confidence that the printer he is just about to purchase isn't going to clog a few months down the line. Thanks to the internet lack of confidence in a product or a company can spread very quickly these days.

Pete

I know for a fact that “clic” has had talks with Epson management about this, so Epson is aware at least since then, a couple of months ago, and there is no telling if they were not already before then.  I also know that they have not addressed his arguments.  Actually it is even worse than that, but I am not at liberty to say what happened exactly.
 
From my own information, Epson is known in the photo industry for being a hard ball player, and for killing any bad publicity they could get, at all costs.  You guys may deduct from that all the possible conclusions that fit.
 
As far as I am concerned, I wouldn’t buy an Epson x900 or x890 printer with what’s hanging over those, especially when Canon has printers on the market which are much cheaper and do not require you to get the extended warranty since the head change is much cheaper and does not require a service tech.

I've also approached a law firm on this matter and plan to contact the state attorney general’s office...

[jeverton]

However, I can not help wondering why someone doesn't send the URL for this thread to someone high in Epson marketing? If they are deliberately ignoring us, this would make it explicit. If their behavior is due to ignorance of the problems here, then this would help to educate them. This issue, it seems to me, is too important to merely blow off steam here in a user forum. Action is called for if we are to have any peace of mind.

Anybody interested? Yes!!!  Everyone should start by contacting their respective state attorney general's office to file a formal complaint.  In addition, we can capitalize and advocate these concerns on Epson’s social media sites.  This might raise a few more flags with Epson management.

[blpanther]

We're gone play the hardball now

[Consumerlaw]

I do class action litigation on behalf of consumers.   I’ve been following this issue for a couple of days now. 

If you have purchased an Epson Stylus Pro 7900 (24-inch) or an Epson Stylus Pro 9900, and have had clogging issues with your printer that have not been satisfactorily addressed by Epson, I would be very interested in talking with you further. 

Please send a private email to:
Consumerlaw1       at     earthlink   dot    net 

Please feel free to google the email address to verify my credentials:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Consumerlaw1%40earthlink.net%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&prmd=imvns&filter=0&biw=1016&bih=624

In compliance with Rule 1-400 of the California Rules of Professional Conduct, I am required to include the following language with this message:  This is communication may result in professional employment for pecuniary gain.

[rmyers]

I do class action litigation on behalf of consumers.   I’ve been following this issue for a couple of days now. 

If you have purchased an Epson Stylus Pro 7900 (24-inch) or an Epson Stylus Pro 9900, and have had clogging issues with your printer that have not been satisfactorily addressed by Epson, I would be very interested in talking with you further. 

Please send a private email to:
Consumerlaw1       at     earthlink   dot    net 

Please feel free to google the email address to verify my credentials:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Consumerlaw1%40earthlink.net%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&prmd=imvns&filter=0&biw=1016&bih=624

In compliance with Rule 1-400 of the California Rules of Professional Conduct, I am required to include the following language with this message:  This is communication may result in professional employment for pecuniary gain.

Ambulance chasing on LuLa?   

[Consumerlaw]

Ambulance chasing on LuLa?  

The term “ambulance chaser” (at least in my mind) evokes images of unscrupulous attorneys taking advantage of dazed and vulnerable casualties.  I don’t see injured people lying on stretchers here.  

What I do see is:

•   People have invested a lot of money in a product.  
•   That product isn’t performing as the manufacturer promised.  
•   The cost of repair is unconscionable, and the manufacturer refuses to step up to the plate to solve the problem to anyone’s satisfaction.  

In situations like this, large corporations hold all the cards, and they play them against their customers on a tilted playing field, without thinking twice.  

That’s where litigation can be useful.  Litigation it does several things simultaneously:

•   It levels the playing field;
•   It gets their attention;
•   It generally gets results.  
 
With almost 600 replies to this thread, there is a lot of consensus on the problem, but . . . Epson doesn’t seem to be listening.