Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 ... 44 45 [46] 47 48 ... 74 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 355572 times)
remko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 44


« Reply #900 on: November 18, 2012, 02:43:56 PM »
ReplyReply

In fact it is so unbelievable that I don't believe it. And not only for that reason, but also because it is well-known that from the get-go their research teams have been studying and testing ways to optimize both quality and performance. That doesn't mean the solutions they come up with are necessarily optimal for all needs and all people all the time, but "indifference" is hardly how I would characterize this company. Yes, not every customer will buy an Epson printer, but one has to assume they're bright enough to know this and that's business, and good for us that there is competition.

+1

What might been perceived as indifference is perhaps due to the lack of a public statement of Epson about this issue?
I agree that it looks to be indifference at play here, but the very few people I know of Epson Europe are indeed the opposite.

What might be at play here is a cultural difference. Asian companies hardly ever admit any issues publicly as that will be seen as a loss of face, even more so for Japanese companies. It is the same with Nikon / Canon and the like.

cheers,
Remko
Logged
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2868


« Reply #901 on: November 18, 2012, 03:23:11 PM »
ReplyReply


I agree that it looks to be indifference at play here, but the very few people I know of Epson Europe are indeed the opposite.


Not everyone's experience in Europe with 11880 and x900  models. "Not using Epson media on that printer sir, if it happens with  Epson media you can come back with your complaint. No mister, not even for Hahnemühle papers¨

In the past there was that Epson dye ink orange plague, Wilhelm Research did not test on ozone gas fading. Both parties admitted failures. The US customers were compensated but nobody in the rest of the world including Europe was compensated. Advertising in Europe was not changed either after the incident. The point is simply that if a company can be indifferent to the problem and it does not become a legal issue or does not cut fast and deep into the sales numbers then that strategy is paying off. Loss of face in whatever country has nothing to do with it.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
470+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012.







Logged
JeffW
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51


« Reply #902 on: November 18, 2012, 07:38:01 PM »
ReplyReply

About a year and a half ago, I bought a 4900. What sold was the advertisement from Epson "And, with our latest ink-repelling coating and auto nozzle verification technologies, clogged nozzles are virtually eliminated."  I am not a production printer, but love the printing process. I have had nothing bu plugged jets from the get go to the point of plugged beyond repair at this point. I appreciate the work of Eric and others on this site and had hoped to find the bucket at the end of the rainbow. Unfortunately, it is a situation of like I read earlier " feed me" I didn't get into this printer with the idea that it would be all consuming. I have a life beyond printing.

With that off of chest, I have bought and used 4 Epson printers with the first one being the 1270. Loved that printer. Never have had as much trouble with clogged nozzles like I have with the 4900. I like Epson but at this point would never buy another. Mind you I am not an irrational person, just very frustrated that Epson cannot or will not be honorable.
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6983


WWW
« Reply #903 on: November 18, 2012, 08:29:44 PM »
ReplyReply

Yes, I remember that advertising line also, and I too believe it is not correct. Clogging is not "virtually eliminated". But my experience has been that it is pretty well-controlled, and if it isn't, and at least while your 4900 is in warranty, Epson will do something about that. So what I don't understand about your situation - because you didn't say - is what happened for that whole first year when the printer was under warranty and "from the get-go" you were having these accumulating clogging problems. What did you do about it, and what did Epson do or not do to help you out?
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
JeffW
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51


« Reply #904 on: November 18, 2012, 09:11:08 PM »
ReplyReply

I have the typically situation whereby the clogs during the warranty period were clear able with, at often times heavy cleanings. The only time it was necessary to call Epson was when if first received the machine that there was such an over-whelming smell that I could not bring it in the house. I am not a chemist, but I thought that maybe the plastic had not cured. They had offered to replace it, but I opted to wait a week and see if it got better before taking up their offer. Several weeks later, it did get better.

My real troubles started about the end of August, when C And VM dropped out a dozen nozzles each. No return from there and has gotten worse. With no warranty and faced with major expense, ie maintenance call, I went on the web to see what I could do. Unfortunately I did not find this site until this week.

I tried windex under the head, then two cleaning cartridges, then a copy of the service manual and cleaning the face of the head. More work than and ink I should have for only having printed 250 prints.

Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6983


WWW
« Reply #905 on: November 18, 2012, 09:25:21 PM »
ReplyReply

If you've only made 250 prints in 18 months that could be the source of your problem. If the machine was left repeatedly for weeks at a time not making prints, I think the trouble you are describing perhaps should not be totally unexpected. These printers were designed to be used quite regularly. I have had to leave mine unused for weeks at a time over the past year, but it was recoverable with a cleaning or two and then perhaps a channel pair once or twice on top of that, but always success at the end of this. Do you have the printer in a very dry room? That can also contribute to problems. Even though your warranty has expired, I would recommend that you ANYHOW call Epson Prographic Support at the number they give you in the documentation and discuss the problem with them. BTW, I'm curious about how you obtained the service manual? This is *supposed to be* a proprietary document available only to authorized service personnel.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
enduser
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 276


« Reply #906 on: November 19, 2012, 12:10:48 AM »
ReplyReply

The Internet can connect you to a myriad of sources for service manuals for limitless types of machines - printers are no exception.

On another point, this thread has run its course as it has become a place to tell others your Epson has bad clogs, and for others to say theirs don't.  Helpful solutions are very few and far between at this point.
Logged
Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1683


WWW
« Reply #907 on: November 19, 2012, 07:53:10 AM »
ReplyReply

On another point, this thread has run its course as it has become a place to tell others your Epson has bad clogs, and for others to say theirs don't.  Helpful solutions are very few and far between at this point.
+1000; it would be great if future respondents could adhere to the original premise of the thread and post their solutions to problems rather than discussing whether or not Epson printers clog or not.  I find the technical discussions quite illuminating and potentially useful even though I don't own a 7900.

Alan
Logged

Streetshooter
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 133


« Reply #908 on: November 19, 2012, 10:28:20 AM »
ReplyReply

+1000; it would be great if future respondents could adhere to the original premise of the thread and post their solutions to problems rather than discussing whether or not Epson printers clog or not.  I find the technical discussions quite illuminating and potentially useful even though I don't own a 7900.

Alan

There are no other solutions other than buying a new printer, whether from Epson or another brand. This thread has demonstrated that, and for those of us that have blocked heads on our Epson printers that's a bitter pill to swallow.

Moral of the story is to always buy an extended warranty when buying an Epson printer and factor that into the purchase price.

Pete
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6983


WWW
« Reply #909 on: November 19, 2012, 12:04:29 PM »
ReplyReply


Moral of the story is to always buy an extended warranty when buying an Epson printer and factor that into the purchase price.

Pete

Quite frankly I'm not convinced this is the moral of the story, or that buying an extended warranty is necessarily a good investment. An extended warranty is an insurance policy, and like all insurance policies it is a risk pool. Whether it is worth buying into that risk pool depends on the cost of the premium relative to the value of the risk. You can only know the value of the risk if you have data on the percentage of machines that require calling the warranty and the avoided cost os the covered incidents. The value of risk is probability of impact times cost of impact. Hence, just for hypothetical illustration in a simple way: if there is a 5% probability of impact and the avoided cost is expected to be $1000, the expected cost of the risk is $50. So if you pay $500 for the risk premium and its expected value is $50, you aren't on the winning side of that bet. Only if you are one of the "5%" do you come out ahead. It's a lottery. Or it's a feel good thing. One thing absolutely for certain: you cannot tell from web forums, including this one, what your probability of impact is for two reasons: (a) we don't have Epson's data on how many printers were sold and how many needed to be repaired, and (b) web forums are skewed, so you can't infer expected performance data from them: complaints are heard in much higher proportion than satisfied customers. It's like the news. All the thousands of aircraft that take off and land safely all over the world every day never make the news because it's not news. If one crashes it is news and that gets reported. Same kind of thing here. Believe what you read, but don't believe for a moment it's the whole story.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Randy Carone
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 545


« Reply #910 on: November 19, 2012, 12:22:08 PM »
ReplyReply

We sell A LOT of Epson printers. We suggest that our customers call us when they have a problem just to be certain it is not something that we can resolve without a call to Epson. We also have contacts we can make to get answers regarding Epson issues. Sometimes, we have to suggest a call to Epson (bad ink carts, for example). Based on this, we have VERY FEW complaints about the large volume of Epson printers that we move. Mark has repeated this a few times on LuLa and I have to support his concept that this Forum is where complaints rise to the surface so it would appear that problems are common. My experience selling Epson printers for the past 8 years does not support this claim.
Logged

Randy Carone
Streetshooter
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 133


« Reply #911 on: November 19, 2012, 02:13:18 PM »
ReplyReply

Quite frankly I'm not convinced this is the moral of the story, or that buying an extended warranty is necessarily a good investment. An extended warranty is an insurance policy, and like all insurance policies it is a risk pool. Whether it is worth buying into that risk pool depends on the cost of the premium relative to the value of the risk. You can only know the value of the risk if you have data on the percentage of machines that require calling the warranty and the avoided cost os the covered incidents. The value of risk is probability of impact times cost of impact. Hence, just for hypothetical illustration in a simple way: if there is a 5% probability of impact and the avoided cost is expected to be $1000, the expected cost of the risk is $50. So if you pay $500 for the risk premium and its expected value is $50, you aren't on the winning side of that bet. Only if you are one of the "5%" do you come out ahead. It's a lottery. Or it's a feel good thing. One thing absolutely for certain: you cannot tell from web forums, including this one, what your probability of impact is for two reasons: (a) we don't have Epson's data on how many printers were sold and how many needed to be repaired, and (b) web forums are skewed, so you can't infer expected performance data from them: complaints are heard in much higher proportion than satisfied customers. It's like the news. All the thousands of aircraft that take off and land safely all over the world every day never make the news because it's not news. If one crashes it is news and that gets reported. Same kind of thing here. Believe what you read, but don't believe for a moment it's the whole story.

Come on Mark, you're stating the obvious !

I can assure you I'm not that naive in believing it's the whole story. All I know is there are several folks that have the same problems as me, so as far as I'm concerned there is a problem with some Epson printers with these heads. Of course there must be thousands around the world that work OK each and every day. I feel it would have been a really good exercise in customer relations for Epson to have said to anyone with this problem,  'We'll help you out here guys' instead of which they have just chosen to ignore the pleas for help. Fine if that's their choice, trouble is a bad vibe about a product can spread like a virus across the net in a very quick time these days and can destroy a good reputation.
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6983


WWW
« Reply #912 on: November 19, 2012, 02:42:06 PM »
ReplyReply

Come on Mark, you're stating the obvious !

. ...All I know is there are several folks .......... across the net in a very quick time these days and can destroy a good reputation.

Yup - that's the whole point - "several folks" against many, many thousands of printers sold. And I seriously doubt this thread is destroying Epson's reputation to a commercially significant extent. It would be real interesting to know how many thousands of printers they've sold world wide since this monumental, record-breaking thread started!!!! :-). You know, if I believed every complaint I read on the internet I wouldn't be buying anything anytime from anyone. Anyhow, I think Alan made a good point several posts up - it would be nice to see this thread focused on technical solutions to problems.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
enduser
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 276


« Reply #913 on: November 19, 2012, 05:06:57 PM »
ReplyReply

As a comparison, the aircraft story doesn't hold water.  If one aircraft crashes due to blocked engine nozzles, the whole fleet is grounded until a solution is found.   As anyone in marketing will tell you, one or two bad apples can ruin a whole barrel of apples.  As a Canon user, when my machine dies I wouldn't consider an Epson for it's replacement.  Buyers troll the internet for purchase hints in their hundreds of thousands - printer buyers are no different.

As to impressions gained, this forum is a microcosm of users and a casual reader would say to themselves, boy, those Epson owners have a hard time of it.  I can also understand the defensive posts members make, given the investment in funds and the years of familiarity. 

You could say that comparison of numbers reporting problems against those who don't has some meaning.  Well it really doesn't.  Some are having problems - to state the obvious, and that another user doesn't have the problem, is really saying nothing.  For them there's no problem and stating so adds nothing to the search for a solution by those who do.  It's similar to the salesman's ploy when confronted by an unhappy customer.  He's trained to say "No-one else has reported this".

The sign printing industry often obtains their printers under fully maintained leasing arrangements.  For a fixed monthly amount you use the printer and the machine is kept running by others, usually for a three to five year period.  That way you know you total printing costs and  machine failures are at no cost to the user.

So,  let's go on here with solutions.
Logged
Eric Gulbransen
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 300


never surrender


WWW
« Reply #914 on: November 19, 2012, 07:10:43 PM »
ReplyReply

I have to add this here, I apologize.  I'm usually focused pretty hard on finding solutions to our problems but this true story begs to be told.  We need some comic relief:

My genius buddy Steve has a girlfriend now.  Half a year already.  I rarely see him anymore but I do text him regularly "jerk".  Anyway his new girl has a brother.  Creative guy, into photography - especially printing (largely, if you can even believe that).  So she asks Steve one night, "I don't know what to get my brother for his 40th birthday.  He's sure been at this photography and graphics design stuff a while now.  Any ideas what he might like or need?"  Steve thinks real hard about it then comes back with a classic, "How bout we buy him a printer?  I might even know one we can get him at a super deal..."  So she unveils the idea to little brother and he gets all lathered up about it.  Already he'd been researching them, almost a year by now.  Naturally big sister gets all jazzed too, until she tells him what it is.  Instantly little brother goes blank, "Oh, an Epson 7900?  I heard they clog an awful lot..."  

Rumor has it Steve never uttered one word in response.  Instead he simply thought, long and hard, as he gazed out at the luminous landscape surrounding them (which showed signs of banding and had slight color shifts in the blues)


(edit) by the way I absolutely love my 7900.  I am continually fascinated with the prints it produces.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 07:13:26 PM by Eric Gulbransen » Logged

remko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 44


« Reply #915 on: November 20, 2012, 11:07:03 AM »
ReplyReply

Not everyone's experience in Europe with 11880 and x900  models. "Not using Epson media on that printer sir, if it happens with  Epson media you can come back with your complaint. No mister, not even for Hahnemühle papers¨

Loss of face in whatever country has nothing to do with it.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
470+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012.


Hi Ernst,

I was not aware of the Epson attitude you described .... that kind of attitude is too bad.

You misinterpreted by remark about loss of face though or I was not clear enough about it. I was referring to the Asian and in particular Japanese people, for which loss of face is the very worst thing that can happen to them. They will do everything to avoid that!

Within Japanese companies usually top management in other regions (outside Japan) is Japanese. So probably that is also the case here in Europe, but they most of the time do not get these kind of info / complaints as lower management learns to keep it away from them - unfortunately. It is against the company culture  Sad

cheers,
Remko










Logged
xsydx
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #916 on: November 21, 2012, 09:21:37 AM »
ReplyReply

I was very happy with the way my epson made prints. Its just the past few months of constant head cleaning and nozzle checks that were the headache. Last week when I tried to clear the heads again I went through one maintenance tank in ONE DAY. Forget the cost of the maintenance tanks, the ink cost was hurting me more. There comes a time when I had to make a business decision and say I can't keep pouring money into it and not produce any results at all.

I just said a prayer tracked my new printer and it comes in today (thank god) when it was expected to be delivered after thanksgiving. I'll be spending all weekend here in the office making prints.

I still have my 7900, i'll try to see if I can get these clogs out of it but at least for the time being my new printer will allow me to continue my production. My next step after I settle back into the workflow will be to order the damper assembly kit and replace that.

My search for a solution brought me to this forum and I think its a great community. I will continue to update you all if I make any progress.
Logged
Bob DeBellis
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19


« Reply #917 on: November 21, 2012, 12:48:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi xsydx,
I know how you feel. I was doing the same thing until it indicated a fatal print head error. Now I'm sitting with a new print head and nervous about installing it. In a strange way, I'm not so anxious. This is because there was a stress level caused by worrying about and clearing clogs.
Re: the 7900 maintenance tank. You can obtain a reset chip to avoid having to purchase a new tank. Any of the 3rd party ink suppliers will sell you one. Mine must be used before the tank drops below 15% capacity but I've used successfully.
Bob DeBellis
Logged
Eric Gulbransen
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 300


never surrender


WWW
« Reply #918 on: November 22, 2012, 01:54:42 AM »
ReplyReply

Me and the genius walked a couple of miles to dinner last night.  Talked girls on our way out, X900 clogs on our way back.  You may not expect this since our 7900 prints happier than a pig in mud these days, but I still think about solving the two greatest mysteries that plague X900 users across the globe - avoiding clogs before they get you, and clearing the ones which already have - just about every day.  Recently I have hit on some new ideas I want to explore, after considering all that we face from a brand new perspective.  Last night for the first time I aired some of these ideas to my genius.  Steve is a lot smarter than I am so when my thoughts got his head to cocking sideways like dog hearing air squeak out of a birthday balloon, I couldn't help feeling I may be on to something...

I want to understand exactly what it is we are up against.  Like, why are some clogs clearable and others not?  If time is our greatest enemy considering head threatening clogs, just how much time is too much time?  How dry is too dry?  And why is too dry, too dry?  I want to understand how long rinsing dried ink with wet ink will leave you with a clean slate?  Is it a day, is it a week?  Or is it just an hour?  It's pretty amazing I think how the very same ink we ask to stay wet for months at a stretch in the face of our heads just millimeters away from life-threatening air, we then ask to dry in fifteen seconds once it's shot out onto paper.  Is there a varnish-like hardening agent in Epson's pigment ink that does this for us?  Could this be our best friend once outside the head, but our greatest enemy while still inside of it?

I mean really, this is not a complicated scenario.  It's a hole, clogged, with dried pigment ink.  

So exactly WTF IS dried pigment ink?  I want a glass slide, a smear of Epson Ultrachrome HDR pigment ink, a really powerful microscope, and a camera.  

I want ten glass slides with pigment ink smears on them, each one soaking in something different to loosen them up again.  And I want to watch them, under a microscope.  I want one glass smear to be just an hour dried in the open air, the other I want to be dried for ten minutes with a heat gun.  I want to see the differences, up close, with a microscope.  And I want pictures.  

Just then Steve looked back at me, like, well you know what like...



After a bit Steve came back at me saying thing's I've never before heard him say.  We wondered at first if a microscope which we could actually get our hands on could even see what I want to see.  So tonight I did some research.  Here, translated by my pea brain into standard monkey language, is what I learned (please excuse me for starting this at the beginning, geniuses feel free to skip two paragraphs)

If you run Epson Ultrachrome HDR inks through your X900 printer, you use pigment ink.  WTF is a pigment?  Pigments are the powder, the particles, the molecules that give us color.  These are pigments:



Pigments are tiny, solid particles which reflect light in different colors than that which they absorb.  Different pigments produce different colors, depending on where they come from and what type they are.  Shine a white light at a particle/it shines blue back/someone calls it a pigment/Epson buys it and mixes it into your cyan cart.  Now you have pigment ink.  Pigment molecules attach to one another and form groups called crystalline structures.  

So what does all this mean to us X900 printers?  We have tiny rocks, in our wet ink, which stick to one another like white dog hair on black velvet, and then they dry - to form mountains, right inside our even tinier piezoelectric printhead nozzles.  Why are X900 printers far worse with clogging than previous Epson models?  Same size rocks, smaller nozzles.  End of story.

...or is it.

As it turns out these tiny crystalline structures made up of groups of pigment molecules measure up in size to a whopping 0.1um.  Since I have no idea in hell how big a "um" is, and therefore have no idea if a reachable microscope could even see one, I did more research.  Apparently seeing things as small as 0.1um is possible with a decent, realistically attainable microscope...

more to come
 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:32:26 AM by Eric Gulbransen » Logged

Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1683


WWW
« Reply #919 on: November 23, 2012, 07:53:05 AM »
ReplyReply

Eric,
One of the big problems is trying to find out how exactly Epson formulates their inks.  I can't find anything in the patent literature on the ink formulation (I have a 3880 printer and if you look on the ink box, all of the patents that are listed are for the cartridge assembly and not the inks).  If you look at the listed composition in the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) you don't really get anything informative.  I'm a chemist by training and have looked at all the data sheets to try to figure this out and can only conclude that Epson are keeping a lot of the crucial information as trade secret and not disclosing it as a patent filing.  Of the listed compounds from the MSDS, the most interesting from your perspective would be the glycerols which are used as a carrying agent and some percentage of these compounds end up leaving the paper after printing as gas (which is why you need to wait a bit before framing under glass or acrylic so that the print has had a chance to fully dry, otherwise you get a residue on the inside of the glazing) and the proprietary organics which I deduce as the carrying agent for the dye or pigment.  It's likely that these are some type of encapsulating resin whose manufacturing tolerance needs to be quite tight (the 0.1 µm that you mention above).  If the particle size is not well controlled during ink manufacturing, you could end up with larger size particles that 'could' cause problems in terms of clogging.  Is this why printers such as the 3880 that have larger size 'holes' in the print head don't clog much at all and the newer generation with smaller 'holes' do?  It's possible but I suspect that Epson have pretty good QA/QC on the ink production line (the only way we could tell that this was contributory would be to gather information on the lot numbers of ink that led to clogs in user machines and this would be extremely difficult to do).

From the reading of your many posts, my own feeling is that the wiper blade and head parking assemblies are likely culprits here.  The wiper blade could leave residues on the print head (and I think you've posted pictures of this happening as the blade gets old.  The head parking assembly could lead to residue dry out if there isn't a good seal.  I don't know what material the print head is made of (haven't tried doing a patent search on that) but Epson do advertise this as having "...our latest ink-repelling coating".  This could also be problematic if not properly controlled during the manufacturing process.  I like to think of this akin to a Teflon non-stick fry pan which is fine as long as the integrity of the Teflon is preserved.  However, we do know after periods of use, the non-stick surface degrades and one gets stuff sticking.  I don't know if the Epson heads degrade over time (perhaps not since users report clogs at all points after they have purchased their printer).

As others have said these are complicated machines and are designed for constant use.  The problem with clogs could have several different contributory factors.

Alan
Logged

Pages: « 1 ... 44 45 [46] 47 48 ... 74 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad