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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 263059 times)
Bob DeBellis
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« Reply #960 on: November 28, 2012, 04:50:02 PM »
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Hi Eric,
Something else I thought of. Should have some particular cleaner/solvent on hand?
Thanks
Bob
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #961 on: November 28, 2012, 05:03:05 PM »
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FWIW, here is one of the early Epson patents for a piezoelectric head printer.  I don't know if this is the first one or not as I'm not terribly expert in searching the US patent database.  You can use the menu on the left side to look at the drawings, specifications and claims respectively.  I'm sure that there are later patents as well.

I'm going through it to see if I can better understand how the printers work.

Alan
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enduser
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« Reply #962 on: November 28, 2012, 07:52:41 PM »
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The best place to see Canon discussion is  http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/      The lessons I've learned over 5 years use of ipf6100 is not to continue printing when it says a head is going bad.  Newer firmware prevents that anyway and doesn't let you "Press online to clear error".  It used to burn-out pc boards.   Otherwise read the blog.

Perhaps what the wiki thing doesn't make clear is that Canon has two heads with an enormous number of nozzles.  The machine constantly checks to see if any block and if they do the nozzle mapping can use other nozzles to take over the job of the blocked ones.  After a long time no spare nozzles exist and you are prompted to change a head.  After 5 years of weekly use I'm about to change a second head.

Another neat thing it does when let go into sleep mode is to wake up every so often and agitate the inks, at another time it might do a nozzle check and light clean if needed, and it also wakes up  and checks temperature and humidity. I think Canon owners are always surprised that Epson owners do a nozzle check before printing - that just isn't needed with the Canon.

There is some debate about image quality which by reading what I can find seems to go about 53 to 47 in Epson's favor.
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #963 on: November 29, 2012, 09:28:01 AM »
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Hi Bob, if you're not desperate to swap your head, wait.  My genius and I are working on a video which will show the whole head swapping process.  No special solvents necessary.  Couple things you'll need, the most particular being a long handle/small tip/magnetic/philips screwdriver.  Other than that a pc (not mac, sorry for me..), good lights, a flashlight, a regular sized philips (I use a screw gun, there are a good number of screws), tape (I like taping screws near where they came out of, and a couple of small boxes or trays so you can keep things organized.  Sounds intimidating, don't let it be.  One, step, at a time and you'll be fine.

Thank you Alan!

boy the Canon self-monitoring practices sound so sensible (and effective).  Almost like there's a design & development team dedicated solely to improving the user experience "post purchase".  Like Nanny always said, you've got to give credit where credit is due.  That's fantastic.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #964 on: November 29, 2012, 10:15:37 AM »
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 I've read good reviews but I can't find anything comparing black and white between the Canons and Epsons and that is what I'm looking for.  I went down to the local Calumet yesterday as they used to have example prints from both printers, but they no longer do.
   


Check John Dean's comment on that:

http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/message/4259

Comments are more than a year old but I think he is still happy with the Canon iPF8300. The iPF8400 did not change much compared to the iPF8300.


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
500+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012:
rearranged categories, Sihl Masterclass papers added.



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sfblue
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« Reply #965 on: November 29, 2012, 10:45:16 AM »
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Ernst and enduser-- thanks for the references to info about the Canons.  I have dug through the wiki and separately, Ernst-- that is a very informative note comparing the various b/w printing methods;  thanks very much for digging that up.  Also, I have always wondered about the Cone piezography options so it's interesting to have that comparison in there as well.

Eric, I'm still undecided, but in evaluating the options: a quick question:
-where does one find the servprog.exe file?  And, is it a simple matter of finding a Windows machine and hooking it up via usb to run the utility?
Even if I decide not to go the DIY route-- I'm looking forward to seeing your video and how involved the process is.

Finally, are there any coders out there familiar with Applescripts and how hard it would be to run a test print every morning at a set time for what you guys previously called a "holiday mode" for the Epsons?  It seems doable, but not sure how you get around the machine being asleep other than just setting it to be on the whole time you are gone . . .  (and would it have to somehow switch PK and matte blacks periodically to make the channel not being used doesn't clog?)
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whitedogphotos
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« Reply #966 on: November 29, 2012, 11:01:35 AM »
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Are the deadhead 7900 printers worth anything as parts? I will not fix mine, but kind of feel funny about tossing it out as trash.Is anyone buying the carcasses in order to fix and resell? I am in Iowa  so I assume any shipping costs make the value pretty low.
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sfblue
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« Reply #967 on: November 29, 2012, 01:19:34 PM »
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Just got a call from Epson tech support.   (I still have not gotten a call from D1 but in the intervening time I've decided it's too expensive to go with them anyway).
Anyway, from tech support:

-if you have missing portions of the lines on the test print and those missing portions move around, it tends to be worthwhile to replace the pump cap assembly first.  If they don't move at all, it is usually the print head.
-The only recommended action from him was to go into maintenance mode, release the carriage assembly via the IM Sensor Gap command, and slide the carriage to the left exposing the pump cap assembly.  He recommended taking a paper towel with water and moistening each of the five sponge pads there.  I asked if there were other sponges, i.e. one for each ink, and there are not.  Those five are it.  He did not know which pad corresponds to which colors.  After moistening each of the sponges, recap the print head and let it sit there for a half hour to an hour.  Then run a cleaning cycle and try a test print again.

While he was not optimistic about this procedure given that my LM test print is missing the same portions of the lines consistently, he said to try it as there it couldn't hurt. Next step is to go to D1.  I asked him if D1 tried to replace all other parts before the printhead and he said he thought so, but I would have to ask them and it could vary.

I asked him about other things including a "holiday mode" as even in a production environment, it's unrealistic that these printers will be used every single day for most users.  He said that tech support had already made that suggestion to the powers that be, but that it's not up to their division unfortunately. 

(I also suggested that given that there seems to be a nontrivial failure rate, offering something . . . anything, e.g. a discount on the print head would help engender good will among long-time Epson users.)
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Bob DeBellis
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« Reply #968 on: November 29, 2012, 02:10:19 PM »
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Hi Eric,
I've got all the tools needed as well as the patience required buddy. I will anxiously wait for the wisdom pouring forth from the genius' video Smiley If can assist in any manner I would be more than happy too.
An additional possible hazard for DIY I fear is that Epson may modify the firmware to lock out the software version we are currently using to perform the counter resets and other functions.

SFBLUE: I agree with your contention that Epson should in fairness do something for us suffering victims..eh... customers. We bought a tool and vast quantities of expensive ink to do a job for us. It shouldn't be giving us fits and costing us a ton of extra moola on a continual basis and terror if we should leave on a trip. I am friends with a local gallery owner/pro photographer who owns an Epson 9900 that is also giving him fits. He said he can't afford to maintain the printer.

whitedogphotos: I read somewhere that the used Epson printer is not worth much for parts.
Bob DeBellis
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sfblue
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« Reply #969 on: November 29, 2012, 04:23:30 PM »
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Bob, I ended up writing this person:
Rand Rozar the Director of Service and Support via the following web site form:
https://epson.custhelp.com/app/ask/p_webform/ContactRand
He had been mentioned earlier in this thread.  I figured it couldn't hurt.  If others feel like writing to him as well, it can't hurt for him to hear from multiple Epson users with this problem.  But . . .they forward you to a customer service person who then forwards your number to tech support-- that's who called me today.  They must have also gotten on the D1 person because he finally called me.

The D1 tech said he would change the pump cap assembly first, because if it's weak it might not be sucking the ink clog from the head.  I told him that Epson tech support had told me that if the dropped nozzle positions on the test print don't move, it's likely to be the head and not the pump cap assembly.  He quickly agreed and said we could just change the print head.  (I wonder what happens if you don't have a little info-- if they just go through and change everything randomly?)).

Anyway, the best the Epson customer service person said was that maybe they could "help with some ink."  I don't know what that means and she was noncommittal about it.  Both the customer service person and the tech asked if I printed every single day and said these are production printers and meant to be printing every single day. 

Whitedog-- I agree.  Environmentally, it feels bad to throw away a machine with one clogged ink channel just because the cost to fix it could be greater than the cost of a new printer.

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ChrisMax
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« Reply #970 on: November 29, 2012, 04:49:31 PM »
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Just happened upon this topic while surfing the net had to register and post.  I got an Epson 4800 from a friend that wasn't working for $130.  Same problem as your 7900 the head was clogged.  I downloaded the service manual, the adjustment program and did a lot of research.  The one bad decision I made was to spend $200 on cartridges filled with 'Print Head Clog Buster'.  Those carts sat in the printer for three weeks and did nothing to unclog the head but maybe they did clean the tubes and everything else.  I replaced all the dampers ($71), cleaned the capping station, reset the waste tank with a chip re-setter and put a whole roll of toilet paper minus the cardboard roll in it, got all new ink carts and of course replaced the print head ($499 from Epson online the cheapest one I saw was $750).  I didn't follow the steps in the Epson Service Manual to replace the print head because it was an unduly complicated procedure requiring special tools (they really want those service call charges!).  Oh I saw some tiny air bubbles in one or two of the ink lines so disconnected them at the damper sucked the bubbles out with a syringe.  The printer is now printing beautifully.  My friend hadn't used the printer in two years and when he turned it on the print head was done.  His junk is my treasure. 

I thought about what might have happened to your 7900 since it was working in Pa but not after being delivered.  My conclusion based on all I have read is that the humidity may have played a role in drying out the print head during transport.  Inside that humidity may have been well above 50% but once in the truck in late Fall the outside humidity could have fallen very low due to the dry cold air.

Bottom line is that very rarely can a printer head be saved once it is severely clogged!  Maintenance is the key to happiness with these expensive printers!
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enduser
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« Reply #971 on: November 29, 2012, 06:35:09 PM »
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Here and there in this thread are comments on the remote nature of the manufacturer from their consumers.  This isn't unusual for a multinational like Epson and Canon.  I remember years ago reading about the design team at HP who were based in Spain.  I even saw the email addresses of a couple of the development engineers of the design Jet series.  So it can be different.

It's a lot harder with Asian countries because of the cultural differences.  The local distributor I talk to tells me he asks Canon here (In Australia) to reduce their ink prices because almost no users of ipf printers buy here.  They buy overseas at half the price.  The Canon guys tell him that all over the world where Canon are, a non-local is at the top.  This gentleman, when asked if prices can be adjusted down just says no! No discussion or argument allowed.

So it might take someone with current colloquial Japanese language skills to make contact with the manufacturers through their Japanese entry points to get a discussion going.
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #972 on: November 29, 2012, 08:16:21 PM »
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sfblue, I believe the pk and mk channel are the same channel.  What changes from ink to ink is an element of the damper unit, which is right behind the head on the same carriage.  This is why we waste such little ink swapping between the two - only the ink from the dampers to the face of the head gets flushed - it's just inches, whereas with older models the ink change happens back at the carts, so the whole line gets flushed.  Far as your other question, google is your friend.

ChrisMax - funny I brought two 4800s back from the dead myself.  Both lost in piles of dust for years.  It is definitely a different world now with these X900s, unfortunately..

enduser, I appreciate what you are saying.  Sometimes it's not what you know, but who.. 

Things broke between me and this great girl one day.  Forever I tried to fix it, to get her back.  I called, spent money, wrote poems, worked out, talked and talked - until finally one day I realized "If she she really wanted this it wouldn't be so hard".   I think of that lesson now.  Not saying Epson doesn't want us happy, of course they do.  Just maybe it doesn't have to be this hard.  Maybe there's a more effective way to reach them, to catalyze their interest.  Finding this way should be at the forefront of our plan B - "The clog prevention initiative".  Unfortunately I've got the focus of a laser beam, and right now my laser is diligently focused on our plan A - "The clog demolishing initiative".  Trust me this thread is about to go where no man has gone before.  If I am able to realize half of what I have in mind over the next two weeks, this journey will have only just begun. 
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whitedogphotos
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« Reply #973 on: November 30, 2012, 03:32:06 PM »
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 Regarding an email/complaint to "Rand" I received a nice reply from someone else who stated :We regret that your Epson Stylus Pro 7900 printer failed. However, Epson does offer Extended Service Agreements for the products because we understand that repair costs for high end electronics outside of the warranty can be costly at times.

Should you decide to purchase another Epson printer, there are rebates available on various Pro Graphics printers at:
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/Promotions.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes#t_printerpromosup

Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Thank you,


Colleen W.

So, if I had purchased the 11-1200$ warranty I would still be out of warranty as well as the money for the warranty. If these are devices that cannot last past the warranty, the real cost is hidden. If they must be used as daily production printers to keep them working, then that should be disclosed. If there is maintenance that should be done that should be disclosed, not hidden in a secret manual. I was very happy with the print quality and I got a lot of good prints in the last 3+ years.Those prints just cost way more than expected in the way of wasted ink/paper/printer than I thought based on my experience with a 2200,4000,3800 i had in the past. Sorry just ranting now-not too helpful to the project at hand.
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chaddro
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« Reply #974 on: November 30, 2012, 03:52:25 PM »
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Ya know, a common cause for a clogged printer in the older series 4000/78/9800 series printer was a clogged or failing DAMPER...

The dampers in the 9900 have a much smaller filter screen in them and one damper hadles two colors... I'm wondering if damper failure isn't a cause for some of these so called clogs. On a site that discusses Rolands (with Epson heads) they recommend replacing the dampers annually!!!

A common recommendation when you had a channel drop out on a 7800/9800 was to replace the damper... really make me wonder

-chadd
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sfblue
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« Reply #975 on: November 30, 2012, 04:45:41 PM »
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Chadd,

Do you think changing out the dampers after the fact will help a clog?  Or is it something that needs to be done regularly to prevent clogs, but once you have one, there's nothing you can do?

I am still learning my printer anatomy, but I found another interesting LuLa thread about dampers here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53578.5;wap2
I'm trying to learn what is the best probability bet-- if it's worth it at this point to try to change out the damper.

White Dog, I empathize and I think many people do. You would think Epson would care about longtime customers but I think it's probably a combination of just being such a large company as well as having a dominant spot in the market and not caring too much about losing a few customers here and there.  Also, I wonder if they worry that offering a discount of some sort on print heads or repair would be tantamount to admitting there is a problem.  Separately, I also think they should communicate maintenance to customers if that helps prevent the fatal print head problems (replace dampers, wiper blades, agitate inks, print every x days, create a holiday mode, etc)  Regardless, the end result is the same and a lot of us have big paperweights.  I just want to print.   
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chaddro
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« Reply #976 on: November 30, 2012, 09:13:19 PM »
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heya sfblue,

on the 9900's? I don't know. Eric can chime in here... he's has hands on experience with dampers. My point was that in the earlier printers a dropped channel most certainly meant a failed damper and easily fixed with a damper replacement. Experienced people doing it in 20 minutes (if memory serves me).

what causes a damper to fail? not sure. but if the filter screen becomes clogged, there is no way for ink to make it's way to the print head.

also... the suggestion above that the pump-cap could not be sucking hard enough (that's what is does, sucks gobs of ink into the waste tank) is also enlightening.

I also wonder if the pressurization system in the 9900's couldn't also have a partial failure... either not pressurizing the failed channel, or not providing ENOUGH pressure so that ink makes it to the head at the needed rate.

There is no pump-cap on the older printers.

I had this analogy in mind ... the old printers could generate LOTS of ink pressure. HAD to in order to charge the ink lines. Kind of like the sump pump in your basement... able to really move some water.

The new 9900's are more akin to your aquarium pump since they depend on the pump cap to do all the sucking.

Gee wiz, here's a thought. What if the pump cap isn't capping your head properly and all the so called sucking action isn't doing anything?

Now, Eric can chime in again on how to do this (it's not that hard). But if you took your rights side cover off and watched what happens under the covers, so to speak, you'd know if you were getting any action at all.

I know this myself from when MY pump cap was replaced (along with the AID board, and MAIN board - apparently, just a a preventative measure). It was enlightening to see all that ink get sucked out of the head.

Oh, and one other thing. One of the laws of fluid dynamics is that a fluid will always flow into the path of least resistance. The 9900 DON'T fire the nozzles in standard cleaning so if you HAVE A REAL CLOG, there is a chance that all that sucked ink is just coming out of the unclogged nozzles.

This may also explain why once you have a dropped nozzle, they don't self clear with use like the older printers could, and why you can do a nozzle check, make a print big 40x60 and again check the nozzle to find missing nozzles... the old printers didn't do that. Once they had a good nozzle check, you could print confidently and not worry about dropped nozzle. Not my 9890. It can drop nozzles even after doing a big print.

Most pointedly to me is when I switch between Pk and MK (or back). I almost always have lost the entire channel until I do a paired cleaning.

Sorry for all the 'sucking'  ... been watch old episodes of Buffy :p

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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #977 on: December 01, 2012, 11:13:18 AM »
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Last night I got our first real glimpses, under a microscope, of exactly what so many of us (me included) have been theorizing about since our first experiences with X900 printhead clogs.  I also ordered a camera mount for this microscope, which won't arrive here for a few more days yet.  Until that time unfortunately I can't share the images which blanketed my mind as I fell asleep last night.  But I can share this; I can see nozzle openings, and into nozzle openings, but not yet the piezoelectric makeup of an actual X900 nozzle.  I can tell you that comparing the size of the gaping scratches that a crusty wiper blade leaves behind it on our printhead's face, to the ever so delicate size of our nozzle holes which are also on our printhead's face, is more than alarming.  Imagining what our crusty muck covered wiper blade looked like when I took it out, while ever so slowly combing my way over our old printhead's face microscopically, made my kidneys growl. 

Yes, this is science.  And yes, this is seriously complicated stuff we are theorizing about.  But I have to share my last night's post-exploration gut impressions.  This could very well be a LOT less complicated than we realize.  If a picture says a thousand words then picture this next time you think your wiper blade "may need replacing" - an overgrown crooked one eyed hairy cyclops using a coal shovel to clean your mom's reading glasses. 

Honestly, these nozzles are tiny.  One tiny piece of lint stretches across twenty of them.  I thought this in the beginning and I think it again now - this could be our worst problem.  It could also explain why clogs occur more over time, more after cleanings sometimes, more regardless of new ink or old or how many prints on your machine.  Maybe what we should be counting is cleanings rather than prints..



As for the damper theory considering sfblue, could be but I'm not so sure.  To me a clogged damper would knock out a whole channel, or parts of a channel inconsistently.  It would cause drop-outs mid print as well.  sfblue reports neither of those.  His clogs seem to be specific to particular nozzles, which aims me at his head.

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« Reply #978 on: December 01, 2012, 01:29:35 PM »
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Interesting!  I can't wait to read more about this, Eric.  In the mean time, I was going to change the damper assembly as I found the part on ebay for $120 and it seemed like not that big of a deal.   I was also suspecting it because I had read this:  "the most common damper problem is a pinhole that allows minute amounts of air to seep into the ink line, resulting in a bad nozzle check that can be temporarily alleviated with cleanings but will return shortly after."   However, upon reading more, it sounds like if this were the issue, the positioning of the dropped nozzles on the test print would still move around which is not the case for me.  So, I'm back to the print head.

Btw, if anyone cares, looks like Epson extended their rebates for December.  I'm leaning towards the new Canon 24 inch ipf6400.  Adorama is out of stock but has them for effectively $1800 post rebates (no sales tax for me and free delivery).  Given what I've been reading, it seems like it is worth a try despite always having been an Epson person.

Also . . . Eric, love the pic of the nozzles; that must have been taken directly from the Epson manual!
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #979 on: December 02, 2012, 05:25:44 PM »
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Sorry guys the USPS let us down yesterday.  Microscope "camera mount" was marked as "out for delivery" yesterday but it never arrived here.  I want to share with you here what me and my genius saw yesterday.  I will in time I promise.  What did happen yesterday is very interesting..

This 9900 I picked up from Edward The Juggler, in August of this year.  I drove to Colorado to meet him in-between race weekends.  Once I got the machine back here my focus went straight back to work and racing.  The first time I even plugged this machine into a wall socket was yesterday morning.  So naturally I figured it's printhead would be wiped out dead.  Edward did a lot of work, made a lot of phone calls, and wasted a TON of ink performing every cleaning cycle these X900s have.  Nothing he did, or that Epson recommended, cleared his green channel clogs.  But every other channel was fine.  Now here it is three whole months later and after a week long journey in the back of my van (no air conditioning) through the Mojave Desert (read; hotter than hell - 110degrees, dryer than hell - less than 40% humidity, and dustier than the Peanuts Character "Pig Pen") and then three months of not only neglect but total disrespect (never even powered up), and now you too might expect this head to fire only blanks once we ran a nozzle pattern.  Well you'd be wrong..

Two channels, LLK and VLM were both 100% clear on the first test print.  All other channels took only one pairs cleanings to wake back up, with the exception of CY which took three to fire 100% clear.  However the green channel, which was the reason Edward the juggler contacted me about his machine in the first place, never did come clear - just like he said.  In fact in the box of extra parts that Edward left me with in the desert there was one nozzle pattern printed.  When I compared his last pattern with our best pattern, there was no difference.   WTF?  After all that abuse NOT ONE MORE UNCLEARABLE CLOG??   How can that be?

If you think that is bad, how about this - once me and the genius removed this 9900's printhead the first thing we did was take it over to our trusty new stereo microscope to examine every nozzle face of the green channel.  For sure we expected, even hoped to see piles of dried ink particles caked inside the openings of the nozzles.  Nothing doing though.  There is no discernible difference between the outside face of this X900's clear green nozzles when compared to it's clogged green nozzles.  For sure that is a blow to my inspiration.  My hope was this was a surface problem.  Apparently it is not.  If these are indeed "clogs", they are inside the head.  Could be they are deep inside, could be they are just inside - either way they are not visible from our Lunar Module.  

I say Lunar Module because combing your way over the face of our X900s printheads under 180X magnification is quite a lot like being in space ( I imagine).  You see things unimaginable.  Take for instance the very common paranoia about printhead strikes (paper striking the printhead during prints).  Well let me tell you, the printhead that came with our printer (the 7900 that this thread was originally based on) must have experienced multiple head strikes.  The steel framework that protects the printhead's actual face is so scratched up you might think some kid dragged it behind his bicycle.  This is both alarming and comforting.  I have another head here from an older model Epson which does not have any framework protecting it.  For sure if this old head endured half of what our protected head did, it would have been damaged.  So with the bad news comes good news too.  Our heads are well protected from strikes (and the strong possibility of heavy matte paper making contact with it's delicate surface).  You will understand more when I am able to share images from our explorations through the Epson Piezo Galaxy.

...more to come
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:50:06 AM by Eric Gulbransen » Logged

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