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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 260825 times)
Blue moon
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« Reply #1160 on: January 14, 2013, 07:11:18 PM »
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Ok, so here's where I am with my 9890.

I had a clog in the Y channel, with about 30% of the nozzles clogged. Tried cleaning, power cleaning, SS cleaning and nothing changed.

Called Scott at American Inkjet Systems (who has been very helpful) and got some of his cleaning fluids. Tried spraying the capping station per Scott's suggestion with CPL 007+, no changes. Then Scott suggested soaking a paper towel in CPL 007 and parking the head over it for at least 5 hours. This, I feel was a mistake. The head sucked up some fluid and I think it broke some of the clogs free which when I did a cleaning proceeded to ram themselves into a bunch of new previously unclogged nozzles. I now have 8 clear nozzles on my Y channel. Every other colour is perfect.

Scott is sending me some cleaning carts but I think the odds of anything happening with this clog is slim to none. If I were to try and fix this again I would first run the cleaning carts and then try the paper towel trick hoping that whatever clogs are dislodged from the nozzles would be broken down by the cleaning fluid the head is loaded with. As is stands, I don't think there's enough free nozzles to ever be able to clear the head and lines of the ink and fill the head with cleaner.

Will you let us know how you get on with the cleaning carts.......hopefully its good news.....
Matt
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1161 on: January 14, 2013, 07:20:10 PM »
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<<My next printer demand list will be as follows...
1 is this printer ok if not used say...1 week....4 weeks etc. what volume of printing has this machine been tested for to establish min/max production levels for consumers ?..what written independent evidence do you have (manufacturer) to substantiate your claim..is this printer rated for durabilty like say fridges are for energy efficiency
2 Is there a review site where i can readily see the experiences to date for this printer from existing consumers...why not ?
3 is there a software package (windows/mac )available to activate the printer for "away " periods...that exceed your recommended levels of dormancy....
4 are my ink requirements properly matched to this printer...are there unnecessary ink options with this printer..
   If so ...why so..was i asked what my ink requirements are ? Were ink recommendations offered to me ?
5 is there an ink agitation program built in
6. Can i easily maintain the park station wiper blade dampers myself and what are the costs to me for these parts.

7 in the event that a nozzle permanently blocks ....can this printer fall back to replacing a blocked nozzle with a spare standby built-in nozzle unit....
8 most importantly, is the nano nozzle technology being serviced by an unwashed and unmodified wiper blade system ...or has the nano technology been (modified )downgraded to match existing hygiene standards ?
9 is there a reputable tried and tested clog busting solution available for purchase ...what is the MSDS for this solution and what is the cost of it..what written evidence is there that this solution is reliable
>>

Matt,

I think your list is basically a good one, though I don't understand #8. I believe the emphasis on throughput is very important because I too think there are grounds to attest that there hasn't been enough advance disclosure in this area, and from everything one reads including personal experience there are whole categories of printers for which it will be a primary performance issue given the characteristics of the technologies involved. A few comments on some of the others:

For #2, it means you won't be an early adopter, because I think one needs months of time to pass and evidence to accumulate before getting a reliable fix on the clogging issue. For example, I reviewed the 4900 on this site when it first came out - the objective was to get an early evaluation published primarily about machine usability and print quality, knowing full well there are certain usage issues that simply can't be reviewed because not enough time has passed.

For #4, the only dormant ink most users would experience is one of the two Blacka. If one is always using papers that require the same vintage of black, it doesn't really matter what happens to the other black or its channel - if you don't use it. One of these days when I want to punish myself I should try firing up Matte Black to see what happens, because I don't print on matte papers any longer. The other inks all get used, not evenly, but all used. So whether this is a real issue, I'm not sure.

For #5, one needs to distinguish between deal-breakers and "nice to have" features. I think the primary issue of throughput falls into the former category, but container agitation the latter, because when the machine is off we can simply remove each cartridge, shake it around a bit and put it back. Regular usage of the printer probably makes this unnecessary (I've not done it through 5 Epson professional printers in 13 years), but for really irregular usage I would think it prudent to do so before each printing session. Who knows, perhaps stuff settles.

Re #7, as things stand, you would not be looking at an Epson printer - you would be buying one of the Canon IPF models, because their heads do exactly that. I wonder whether Epson could build such redundancy into its head technology - one of these things they must have thought of because the competition does it, but again only they can answer to.

Re #9, I think for people experiencing really stubborn clogs this is an important point, and I don't understand why it takes 3rd party developers to market these solutions while the manufacturers don't. It seems that from much of what one reads, the most effective and permanent cleaning requires running solution right through the head. This means substituting a cleaning cartridge for an ink cartridge, pumping it through the channels, re-substituting the ink for the cleaning cartridge, and then recharging the channel so the lines are full of ink. I think it would be a bit challenging for manufacturers to design a user-friendly approach to running such cycles, but I for one would encourage it - despite the steps involved, has to be a lot cheaper and a lot less trouble than head replacement.

Regards,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Sal Baker
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« Reply #1162 on: January 14, 2013, 08:32:14 PM »
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Canon does seem to be paying attention to the dissatisfied, and vocal Epson users.  The wide format ipf machines automatically agitate the ink tanks periodically, have nozel redundancy as mentioned above, provide user replaceable $400 print heads (with head calibration built in), and actually let the user into the "black box" of their version of ABW (tone adjustments and soft proofing).  No doubt Epson will have to react to competition with future models.

Sal
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« Reply #1163 on: January 14, 2013, 09:19:06 PM »
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Canon does seem to be paying attention to the dissatisfied, and vocal Epson users.  The wide format ipf machines automatically agitate the ink tanks periodically, have nozel redundancy as mentioned above, provide user replaceable $400 print heads (with head calibration built in), and actually let the user into the "black box" of their version of ABW (tone adjustments and soft proofing).  No doubt Epson will have to react to competition with future models.

Sal

Sal, the interesting thing is that there's been six years plus to "react to competition". Canon has had these features I believe since the IPF 5000, such that if Epson were intending to emulate them, one would have thought that by now they could have. I think it's a matter of a different "technology path", which Epson is very persistent in pursuing incrementally. Time and the market will tell whether it works for them or not. So far it seems to.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #1164 on: January 14, 2013, 09:53:12 PM »
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Will you let us know how you get on with the cleaning carts.......hopefully its good news.....
Matt

In the very begining of this thread, Eric made us very aware that his effort to clear his "clogs" with cleaning solution and carts were a waste of money and effort. I'm afraid this is going to be the same outcome,as it has been with everyone else that has made the effort.There are many outfits taking advantage of people, selling them all kinds of  'remedies' when they really know it is futile once the real damage has been done! Cleaning carts and fluids were designed to flush a good system for storage,for changing over from OEM ink to a  private supplier, or going from solvent to Pigment or visa versa, in the machines that allow for this.They can also possibly be used for preventative measures They are not designed for clearing clogs once they are that serious!                        
I have come to a conclusion that once anyone has done 'repeated' cleanings in succession,in an effort to clear a stubborn clog, (especially power cleans) they have already placed the head in fatal jeopardy! The clog is no longer the sole reason for death of the head.
The statement that just about all the people  complaining about unclearable clogs have made, is "repeated cleanings, followed by power cleans,and tons of ink down the drain in the process of doing so" ...
This appears to me to be the common denominator to dead head syndrom!
Once this has been done it's good bye head. Epson warns against it in the manual, and says that  "damage to the head will occur"
David
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:55:49 PM by davidh202 » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1165 on: January 14, 2013, 10:04:41 PM »
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I have come to a conclusion that once anyone has done 'repeated' cleanings in succession,in an effort to clear a stubborn clog, (especially power cleans) they have already placed the head in fatal jeopardy! The clog is no longer the sole reason for death of the head.
The statement that just about all the people  complaining about unclearable clogs have made, is "repeated cleanings, followed by power cleans,and tons of ink down the drain in the process of doing so" ...
This appears to me to be the common denominator to dead head syndrom!
Once this has been done it's good bye head. Epson warns against it in the manual, and says that  "damage to the head will occur"
David

I believe you are correct.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Blue moon
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« Reply #1166 on: January 14, 2013, 10:10:31 PM »
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From Mark...

For #4, the only dormant ink most users would experience is one of the two Blacka. If one is always using papers that require the same vintage of black, it doesn't really matter what happens to the other black or its channel - if you don't use it. One of these days when I want to punish myself I should try firing up Matte Black to see what happens, because I don't print on matte papers any longer. The other inks all get used, not evenly, but all used. So whether this is a real issue, I'm not sure.

Sorry Mark...i am a bit confused as i do not have a 900....put it to you like this ....i decide to have a 10 channel 900 but for the moment i do not wish to MK (or green or whatever) or LLK ......can the machine fire on the colors i want for the moment or must i load all the slots with full ink carts.....are you compelled to fully load even though you have no use right now for the full color range..hypothetical.....it would be more economical to select your own immediate color preferences ...say run on 7 or whatever ...why load a color that you don't need to load....and if you load must that colour be managed like all your regularly used colours...trying to think economical...

For #5, one needs to distinguish between deal-breakers and "nice to have" features. I think the primary issue of throughput falls into the former category, but container agitation the latter, because when the machine is off we can simply remove each cartridge, shake it around a bit and put it back. Regular usage of the printer probably makes this unnecessary (I've not done it through 5 Epson professional printers in 13 years), but for really irregular usage I would think it prudent to do so before each printing session. Who knows, perhaps stuff settles.

Mark...
I have been doing very encouraging printer vibration tests for months now..3 shakes a day...could not remove carts that often...would burn out the chips.....prefer leaving carts in as i had to dismantle two machines to replace cart chip sensors....ouch...
Yes...stuff settles....we have several references to pig settle on this thread already....remember the emulsifiers that are needed to keep all the bits flowing and mixing freely.....what Guinness do with their canned stout is to put a small plastic ball bearing in their cans.....marvellous for  agitation...the natural instinct of ink particles is not to mix but to separate ...ask yourself what that means ....



Re #9, I think for people experiencing really stubborn clogs this is an important point, and I don't understand why it takes 3rd party developers to market these solutions while the manufacturers don't. It seems that from much of what one reads, the most effective and permanent cleaning requires running solution right through the head. This means substituting a cleaning cartridge for an ink cartridge, pumping it through the channels, re-substituting the ink for the cleaning cartridge, and then recharging the channel so the lines are full of ink. I think it would be a bit challenging for manufacturers to design a user-friendly approach to running such cycles, but I for one would encourage it - despite the steps involved, has to be a lot cheaper and a lot less trouble than head replacement.

Mark
Believe Epson had a 9th channel 20 years ago that was just a flexible but targeted clean channel....this clean channel could be exclusively focussed on the clogged colour ( i was told ).....they have done it already it appears.....

I have all the gear  for building cart no 9 with just clean solution...the idea is to have a separate cart and pipe with its own damper ....plug out the blocked cart and damper and plug in your cart ,line and damper direct into the head ...no ink waste....Eric got their first with his syringe attack into the head which is where i am now...he is very hard to keep up to !



Mark
#8
I see a conflict between the super sensitivity of the 900 nozzle system and a wiper blade mechanism that is unable to permanently remove the threat of residual resins from being injected back into the head...we all know too that a malfunctioning wiper blade can be an indirect cause for air  bubbles working backwards into the head through puddling on the head surface itself
Good night
Matt
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1167 on: January 14, 2013, 10:32:30 PM »
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Sorry Mark...i am a bit confused as i do not have a 900....put it to you like this ....i decide to have a 10 channel 900 but for the moment i do not wish to MK (or green or whatever) or LLK ......can the machine fire on the colors i want for the moment or must i load all the slots with full ink carts.....are you compelled to fully load even though you have no use right now for the full color range..hypothetical.....it would be more economical to select your own immediate color preferences ...say run on 7 or whatever ...why load a color that you don't need to load....and if you load must that colour be managed like all your regularly used colours...trying to think economical...

Matt, it may be more economical but I think unrealistic. You would need custom colour mixing and dithering algorithms to suit the wants of each customer. It won't ever happen.

I have been doing very encouraging printer vibration tests for months now..3 shakes a day.

I seriously doubt anything near this amount shaking-up is necessary for any of these inks.

Believe Epson had a 9th channel 20 years ago


The first pigmented ink desktop printer that Epson produced came onto the market in 2000, model 2000P - that's about 12 some years ago. There has not been such a cleaning channel on any Epson printer outfitted with pigmented inks or 21st century ink delivery systems that I am aware of, so if such a thing were to be developed, I think it would be a big deal for a manufacturer to package it in a way  that the average user could use - few people are as adventurous and skilled as you and Eric - the vendor caters to the vast user pool out there; I think it would be super to have such a thing, as I said before, but I do think from a manufacturing, marketing and support perspective it wouldn't be a slam-dunk to introduce.

Re #8, I can understand problems with a malfunctioning wiper blade shifting stuff about rather than wiping it off completely - I have experienced that with a 4000 model. But when you say "we all know too that a malfunctioning wiper blade can be an indirect cause for air  bubbles working backwards into the head through puddling on the head surface itself I'm interested to know how we all know this, as well as the point about residue being sucked back into the printhead.

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Erik Ulstad
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« Reply #1168 on: January 15, 2013, 12:11:53 AM »
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Perhaps we do this the old fashioned way and see where the Epson boys drink after work?
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iladi
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« Reply #1169 on: January 15, 2013, 03:30:38 AM »
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one observation: in outdoor printers, like Rolands (also Epson heads), one can print with a few cloged or deflected nozzels because no one nottice from the distance. In time, the clogged nozzels "heal" themselvs, just by printing not by cleanings. I know it is not a solution for fine prints, but just an observation that cloged heads can heal by printing. Obvious, it is not a 100% solution, some clogs never cleans.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:36:15 AM by iladi » Logged
Blue moon
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« Reply #1170 on: January 15, 2013, 05:42:53 AM »
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Hi Eric,

Looks like you've been having some fun with the printhead.  Thanks for posting the pics!  I'm attaching a document that should help understanding the inner workings of what you're seeing.  Also, here is a link for you which should be a good read if you're curious.  http://doc.utwente.nl/58366/1/thesis_Wijshoff.pdf  Granted, they are a little dated...  Smiley

All the best,

Chris

Mark

This is just a thesis and you very probably have read it as avidly as i have !

You may have noticed that around page 125 the cameras used were able to pick air bubbles tethering on the brink of the nozzle wondering whether to "stay outside" the head or go with the flow backwards into the nozzles chamber......unfortunately the bubbles were photographed "sneaking back inside "
Seemingly whats to blame (as I'm sure you know ) is pooled ink lying on the head for longer than is healthy !
The thesis attributes a lot of responsibility to poor hygiene management by the user.. .
We are also admonished on the dirt side ie rag papers flints what have you....that in these scientists opinion goes back up the head....as the air bubble seemingly can....
I sincerely do not think it impossible for drying rubber blade resins to get in on the act with the air bubbles and dirt blobs ....what actually would prevent resins ( coagulating ink in simple terms) which have not been properly washed off the blade going anywhere that the wiper blade touches..or takes them...?Unfortunately,i am using a huge amount of imagination and hunch right now....i am just a printer user mostly who is learning so much from all of your contributions...
I would love to be able to prove that this thesis is right or wrong....
But I am way out of my depth......
But thanks Chris 233 for giving me a chance to read something of a different world  Cheesy
Matt
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Blue moon
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« Reply #1171 on: January 15, 2013, 06:05:57 AM »
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I have been doing very encouraging printer vibration tests for months now..3 shakes a day.

I seriously doubt anything near this amount shaking-up is necessary for any of these inks.

Mark,
I am fed up doing it too....but this printer (800) has not printed since last April...is in beautiful condition....is 7 or eight years old on its original head....demands a test pattern  every 3 weeks or so..i know by the lazy startup...little spray on the park pad for good measure when i think of it.(..about 18 c with 65 humidity ..).we have a damp climate most of the year...i have reduced the shake routine but i end up with a blocked nozzle as a thankyou. a bit of useless information for you...i need about 600 mls of ink a year ...just to stand still....i should be putting that 600 mls into a few photographs instead..
Once i go back printing i will dramatically reduce my simple shake program....
So far there is only one bit of advice that i can honestly and sincerely offer to everybody...and its this....i am certain that vibrating your cart or your printer for that matter will never do harm !
Matt





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Luca Ragogna
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« Reply #1172 on: January 15, 2013, 08:55:37 AM »
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In the very begining of this thread, Eric made us very aware that his effort to clear his "clogs" with cleaning solution and carts were a waste of money and effort.

Here's the thing, I can't afford to have a tech come and make this repair. If the carts don't work (and I've already stated that I have little hope) the Epson goes to the highest bidder and I lease a Canon 8300s or 8400 (Kinda leaning towards the 8300s). Whatever I can get for the Epson goes towards the new printer and I get a warranty, user replaceable heads and a year warranty on replaced heads when and if I ever get to that point. It kills me that I just spent $1500 on ink.
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Blue moon
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« Reply #1173 on: January 15, 2013, 09:51:13 AM »
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Like it...daring concept.....maybe like we see a car being washed back and forward....
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« Reply #1174 on: January 15, 2013, 10:39:55 AM »
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Luca, don't die about spending all that loot.  I've never really considered this before but with these X900 Epsons dying off to the scrap yard it could be that a used parts market is emerging.  For instance let's say you just bought a 700ml cart, then blew 40% of it doing power cleans and killed your head.  Printer is a total loss so it goes to the junk, and 420ml of new HDR ink goes down the toilet with it.  You go buy a Canon clinging to the only trace of happiness you can, which is knowing you won't be in this place again any time soon.  While that may be a trace of happiness, it's mostly sadness.  I don't know how reasonable it is to sell something like half used ink on craigslist, but it does still have value doesn't it?

As for your cleaning carts, they aren't cheap either - and they too may threaten to end up in the can.  I can help you here.  I have a dream to set up an X900 machine specifically for cleanings, so I'll buy them from you when/if you're done with them.  Why must we all face the daunting task of buying cleaning carts, purging all that expensive ink, filling the lines with cleaning fluid, rinsing the head, then filling the lines with ink again?  It's too much I think.  Ridiculous money down a ridiculous drain. 

I haven't thought to share this because why would I, we don't even know if it's possible yet.  But I have a dream.  In this dream we will find a way to clear clogged heads.  Once we do I will offer an X900 Rescue Package consisting of the following:  head removal video, special phillips head screwdriver, empty printhead shipping box, four Hersheys kisses. You get the package, take your head out, ship it to me, I soak it/clean it, install it in the X900 cleaning carts machine.  I do cleanings with it, print with it, confirm it is indeed clear.  I pack it up and send it back to you.  We all finally slip the knot from the noose around our necks.


Hell of a dream, I know, but that's my MO.  I am a dreamer
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chaddro
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« Reply #1175 on: January 15, 2013, 10:50:30 AM »
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one observation: in outdoor printers, like Rolands (also Epson heads), one can print with a few cloged or deflected nozzels because no one nottice from the distance. In time, the clogged nozzels "heal" themselvs, just by printing not by cleanings. I know it is not a solution for fine prints, but just an observation that clogged heads can heal by printing. Obvious, it is not a 100% solution, some clogs never cleans.

Iladi,

If we were talking about the 9800/3800/4000 heads, I'd agree with you. And running 8x10 swatches was one method I used to clear a nozzle.

However, in the last 1-1/2 years of owning my 9890, this has never worked. I have ALWAYS had to resort to a paired cleaning to clear dropped nozzles. I believe this is because the x900 heads do not generate the same kind of "firing force" that the older head do. The whole head cleaning process is vastly different than the older heads. The new heads just do not seem to be able to force the gunk out.






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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1176 on: January 15, 2013, 12:03:18 PM »
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one observation: in outdoor printers, like Rolands (also Epson heads), one can print with a few cloged or deflected nozzels because no one nottice from the distance. In time, the clogged nozzels "heal" themselvs, just by printing not by cleanings. I know it is not a solution for fine prints, but just an observation that cloged heads can heal by printing. Obvious, it is not a 100% solution, some clogs never cleans.

On the 4900 it's a mixed bag. Some clogs do rectify themselves by printing, and some don't, requiring a "pair-cleaning". I had this experience both ways just last night.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #1177 on: January 15, 2013, 12:26:38 PM »
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Mark

This is just a thesis and you very probably have read it as avidly as i have !

You may have noticed that around page 125 the cameras used were able to pick air bubbles tethering on the brink of the nozzle wondering whether to "stay outside" the head or go with the flow backwards into the nozzles chamber......unfortunately the bubbles were photographed "sneaking back inside "
Seemingly whats to blame (as I'm sure you know ) is pooled ink lying on the head for longer than is healthy !
The thesis attributes a lot of responsibility to poor hygiene management by the user.. .
We are also admonished on the dirt side ie rag papers flints what have you....that in these scientists opinion goes back up the head....as the air bubble seemingly can....
I sincerely do not think it impossible for drying rubber blade resins to get in on the act with the air bubbles and dirt blobs ....what actually would prevent resins ( coagulating ink in simple terms) which have not been properly washed off the blade going anywhere that the wiper blade touches..or takes them...?Unfortunately,i am using a huge amount of imagination and hunch right now....i am just a printer user mostly who is learning so much from all of your contributions...
I would love to be able to prove that this thesis is right or wrong....
But I am way out of my depth......
But thanks Chris 233 for giving me a chance to read something of a different world  Cheesy
Matt


The paper from the Epson engineers doesn't address the specific issue at hand here. As for the thesis, I don't have the engineering background to evaluate it, even if I did I wouldn't have the detailed knowledge of the Epson printhead and the system that drives it; therefore I would not make any presumption, hunch, guess or inference about the accuracy of its findings in respect of this issue for specific print heads in x900 Epson printers.
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« Reply #1178 on: January 15, 2013, 12:31:50 PM »
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........So far there is only one bit of advice that i can honestly and sincerely offer to everybody...and its this....i am certain that vibrating your cart or your printer for that matter will never do harm !
Matt

Matt, honestly, on a scale of 1 to 10, the most important piece of advice I would offer any one having clogging problems is to make prints at least twice a week, allowing no more than three days interval between. OR, do experiments, as I have done, to see for how long you can leave the printer alone without needing to clean it on next start up. In my case for the 4900 in my humidity and temperature conditions (well within Epson specs), it's up to 5 days.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #1179 on: January 15, 2013, 12:36:09 PM »
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Iladi,
.............. The new heads just do not seem to be able to force the gunk out.


Chad, from my experience, it depends. Sometimes yes sometimes no. I'd say more often than not one does need a "pair cleaning" to get all those little lines reproducing in the nozzle check. But before cleaning, unless many lines are missing, I do try running a print and then a nozzle check to see how much printing repairs on its own.
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