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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 262622 times)
Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1300 on: February 18, 2013, 10:45:01 AM »
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I have something interesting to share.  Potentially critical to 9900/11880 users.  I got a call from Edward the juggler at work Friday.  He's got an 11880 now.  He's been printing fine since spending $3,000 on a D1 new head install.  But suddenly, after doing a few 60"X90" prints, his drive band snapped.  Not sure of the proper name yet, but it's the steel band that drives the carriage left to right as the machine prints.  He asked if I had heard of this happening before.  I told him no, but that I knew why it broke.  I've taken three 7900s apart by now, and one 9900.  The head (carriage holding the head and damper unit), once released, slides effortlessly on the rails on the 7900s.  This is not the case on the 9900 that I took apart though.  I will look into why but for now my suspicion is most prints we run on the wider machines are not always wider prints, so the rails don't get lubed as often - way out on the run.  Like maybe in the 30 to 60" range.  I don't know what type of lube the rails get, yet, but I will.  Perhaps this lube dries out.  I can tell you definitely there is a huge difference in the resistance that I feel sliding released heads on the two different machines.  This 9900 even gave out a very quiet squeak or two first time I drove the head through it's full range of movement.  This added resistance is easily the reason for Edward's band breaking.  

So the warning here is release your head and slide it through it's range.  If it feels like butter you're alright.  If it doesn't, you need some lube.  Exactly what lube, and how much, is something we need to find out.

I talked Edward through disassembling the right side of his machine so that he could manually cap his new $3,000 head.  With access to the rear of the pump and cap assembly it is possible to manually roll the cap's drive gear until it draws up to the head.  This process gave him a good look at the band, and what it will take to replace it.  He is confident that he can do it on his own.  We'll see if Epson will sell him the part.  

We now have two things to keep from drying out on these machines.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 10:47:10 AM by Eric Gulbransen » Logged

Blue moon
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« Reply #1301 on: February 18, 2013, 11:18:02 AM »
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I'm really glad you guys like the video.  Thought about it all day doing the framing hammer thing.  It's not perfect of course, already I see that I left out the part about unplugging the machine after power-down. 
Eric
A bit of advice please if you would...
After power-down and plugs pulled out of the wall.......i seem to recall you being advised by another expert to watch out for capacitator risks even after power-down.....i think the advice was to press down the ON button after power-down and cables disconnected to release any static electricity left in the capacitator.....what do you think..
Thanks in anticipation
Matt
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davidh202
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« Reply #1302 on: February 18, 2013, 11:38:15 AM »
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 The need for capacitor discharge applies to just about any electronic device before attempting service , some more than others dependant upon the size and actual storage charge of the capacitor (farad rating). Flash capacitors which store a lot of energy or are used in power supplies, are especially nasty if you don't discharge before completing the circuit with your fingers Shocked.

most circuit boards with small capacitors won't do any harm.

Static electricity on the other hand can fry some chips so that is more of a worry.
Always discharge your body by grounding before attempting any work on or near the circuit boards Wink

David
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Blue moon
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« Reply #1303 on: February 18, 2013, 12:54:15 PM »
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I completed my first fifteen day auto test last week......without any printer "rocking " of any description......just turn on printer daily....no printing.......result was completely successfull auto test on the first try after a lapse of 15 days since the previous auto test...so far no advantage for rocking ....
Printer starting up beautifully...16 degrees Celsius 53 humidity.......rather a cold room but the inks seems to like it....dark room facing north...never any direct sunlight.......
Be back after stage two which is now well under way......
Hi Everyone
just finished second 15 day auto test today..no printer rocking , no printing......k3 inks.....daily start up....7800...
16 celsius 56 humidity.....cold dry room....
Absolutely perfect auto test.....first go....and each days start up was sweet.....knew there would be a good test...
Could be eating my words about rocking....
What a beautiful printer Mr Epson.......
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Blue moon
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« Reply #1304 on: February 18, 2013, 12:56:48 PM »
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The need for capacitor discharge applies to just about any electronic device before attempting service , some more than others dependant upon the size and actual storage charge of the capacitor (farad rating). Flash capacitors which store a lot of energy or are used in power supplies, are especially nasty if you don't discharge before completing the circuit with your fingers Shocked.

most circuit boards with small capacitors won't do any harm.

Static electricity on the other hand can fry some chips so that is more of a worry.
Always discharge your body by grounding before attempting any work on or near the circuit boards Wink

David
David
Thanks
Matt
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1305 on: February 18, 2013, 05:55:13 PM »
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This is exactly the type of stuff we need - community efforts.  I can't do this alone, and get it all right.  Thank you for this and any other tips, suggestions, changes, whatever.  I will make the changes.  But what exactly please.  How do we purge the machine of any charge?  Hitting the power button after un-plug, does that really do it?  What's the best way to ground yourself to rid yourself of static electricity?  Does rubbing a balloon on your head do it?  Dragging your shoes on the carpet?  I want to get this right..   

The need for capacitor discharge applies to just about any electronic device before attempting service , some more than others dependant upon the size and actual storage charge of the capacitor (farad rating). Flash capacitors which store a lot of energy or are used in power supplies, are especially nasty if you don't discharge before completing the circuit with your fingers Shocked.

most circuit boards with small capacitors won't do any harm.

Static electricity on the other hand can fry some chips so that is more of a worry.
Always discharge your body by grounding before attempting any work on or near the circuit boards Wink

David
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plui
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« Reply #1306 on: February 18, 2013, 06:18:20 PM »
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I have something interesting to share.  Potentially critical to 9900/11880 users. ...

Thanks for this Eric, I'm using an 11880 as well, and even though this thread details 7900/x900, series I found the info here very helpful, especially the videos -- great for understanding the general process of assembly/disassembly, capping station, wiperblade change of the 11880 as well.   
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davidh202
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« Reply #1307 on: February 18, 2013, 07:41:40 PM »
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Erik,
Dragging you shoes on a carpet, stroking your favorite furry friend ( I won't even go there Roll Eyes), or rubbing your hair with a balloon, is exactly  what not to do. This builds a charge, (especially in cold dry weather). You essentially become a capacitor storing the static energy, and waiting for a discharge .
You may or may not actually have a charge built up and it wont hurt you in any way most of the time but it pays to play it safe around circuit boards with components that may be sensative to static and be fried in the process.

The best conductor to discharge yourself on is a METAL cold water pipe, as they usually go directly into the ground at some point.
Most electrical circuit board panels anywhere, have a heavy copper  (wire or braided) that is clamped directly  to a cold water line or a metal stake directly into the ground which becomes the ground conductor.That would also be a good choice. Once done don't do any of the above or you will once again build up a charge.
Eric, ask one of your electricians on a job site to show you one.

As far as whether or not the printers discharge when powered down as Matt said ,I have no idea.
As long as you don't touch any of the circuit boards terminals (solder joints), there should be no problems.

David
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 07:44:57 PM by davidh202 » Logged
Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1308 on: February 18, 2013, 08:04:46 PM »
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Although barely humor, and definitely twisted, you of all people davidh202 must know the balloon was a joke.  I mean I'm dumb, but I aint stupid. 

...wait a minute.

I like the cold water pipe over the earthing electrode.  I can see people tripping over old wheelbarrows walking down forgotten alleyways looking for their grounding rod.

Thanks david!
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davidh202
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« Reply #1309 on: February 18, 2013, 08:19:00 PM »
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"Although barely humor, and definitely twisted, you of all people davidh202 must know the balloon was a joke".
I knew that Wink

  "I mean I'm dumb, but I aint stupid".
your very far from either  !!

 
  
 
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1310 on: February 19, 2013, 01:10:11 AM »
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"More to come"     ....came tonight. 

and with it it brought new news

...and new rules.

I just took the framing-hammer fatal error head out, and apart.  It's all together mostly, minus a few fatal things here or there.  First of all my hopeful suspicions were correct, I did clear it, and it did print.  But my fears were correct too, I did damage it as well. 

All along, since printing my test page with it, I've held a sneaky suspicion that while it did print 75% of a page before it blew up - it did after all blow up.  Initially I felt it ran out of ink, then overheated.  But ever since then I've been asking myself, "Why in the hell did it run out of ink?  I primed it after all...  something must be wrong."

The autopsy results are now in, so speculation is over - it did run out of ink.  But you'd never guess why.  and I mean you would never, guess, why. 

First of all tonight's autopsy positively confirms my ink-flow theory.  Ink DOES indeed flow over the speed bumps on it's way to the nozzle openings, just like I drew it.  So if that chamber is clogged solid with dried ink, your nozzle is shut down.  Period. 

Second of all tonight's autopsy confirms my next fear - Ultrasonic cleaning is OUT.  You'll learn why in a minute, for now though suffice to say it's too much vibrating for these teeny chamber walls to endure.

Third of all tonight's autopsy confirms a new challenge, at least for me.  Forcing fluid through the head, even gently, is also OUT.


Now on to what I saw:


The following damage illustrates the result of too much pressure applied while forcing cleaner through the head.  The chamber deck floor is blown out.  This missing floor gives a clear view of the enclosed reservoir that runs under the chamber deck.  The broken piece of chamber deck laying on top of the chamber walls also gives a clear view of the electrics running across the bottom of it.  This proves electric charge makes direct individual contact with each and every chamber wall, all along it's length.  I can only speculate at this point but charging a chamber wall at just one end mostly likely wouldn't make it flex throughout it's entire length, which I suspect chamber walls do.  Electrics running the full length of each wall supports my suspicion that the entire wall flexes, which creates positive pressure, which fires the "nozzle".




This next image illustrates what I suspect is the result of ultrasonic cleaning.  Perhaps the vibration is just too much for the ends of the chamber walls - which extend out from the speedbump and into the main ink reservoir.  It's either the pressure of the thick ink vibrating the wall to death, or the wall vibrating itself to death in the thick ink.  Either way death is the result.




The third image, here, is most fascinating to me.  Also exciting.  Look at those short black lines lodged between some of the chamber walls.  Those are more than black lines, they are the broken ends of the chamber walls. To me this confirms my theory that the ink flows from the main reservoir, over the speed bumps, and to the nozzle opening - because these chamber wall ends obviously got sucked in there as they followed the flow of ink.  Sure, this is exciting, I guess.  But this is not what I find fascinating.  What I find fascinating is the fact that this is the green chamber, of the 9900 head with the entire green channel missing in nozzle patterns.  Why am I so excited you ask?  Because if the chamber wall ends got sucked into the chambers, GREEN INK WAS INDEED FLOWING (even though it was cyan in this test..)

Ladies and gentlemen, we (almost) cleared an un-clearable head.




This last image does not confirm any theories, instead it solves a mystery.  Tonight I learned what the extra chamber walls which are not related to any nozzle openings, do.  I also learned what the zig zag walls are on the OTHER side of the nozzle openings.  I now think these secondary chamber walls are essentially pumps.  I suspect they pump ink (or in this case "coolant") through the back side of the nozzle end of the chambers.  The more I study the images, and illustrations that I have made, the more this new cooling theory makes sense. 



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Blue moon
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« Reply #1311 on: February 19, 2013, 06:35:18 AM »
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Erik,

As far as whether or not the printers discharge when powered down as Matt said ,I have no idea.
As long as you don't touch any of the circuit boards terminals (solder joints), there should be no problems.

David
Eric and David
I have no idea about discharging the capacitator or the printer on shut down by pressing down on the ON switch after the current has been turned off at the wall socket..it was HIGGY who brought all this up about frying stuff.....
You guys in the States are on 110 volts ...right?  In europe we are on 220 volts ....so we might need to be more careful !
What i have also picked up about static in our bodies ( as well as what David told me in his last post ) is
1 turn off the On switch on the wall plug first.....leave the plug in the wall socket.....just make sure there is no current coming out of the wall....the fact that the cable is still plugged into the socket on a completely dead plug allows you just to touch that dead wire on the outer plastic and this will give you the facility to ground yourself on to the earth wire that seemingly is still an earth even though there is no current coming through that cable....sounds weird....
2 turn off the printer ON switch next
3.pull out the live wires plugged into circuit boards.....just in case
4 cold taps sounds super....also touch yourself off the main steel frame of the printer often....and tools too....rub them off the steel frame of the printer....everybody and everything has to have the same voltage running through themselves....no variations in voltage
5 timber floor good
6 humidity ( i have no idea ) between 40 % and 60% ....static does not like high or low humidity..
I am an amateur electrician since i was 9....not to be trusted...........
Hey Eric...
You know your brilliant idea for magnetising a long stem screwdriver by rubbing it on a broken speaker magnet...i just wonder would static like that particular friction  going on....David might tell us if he would recommend making sure that you ground the magnetised screwdriver on say a cold water tap next.....or use an ordinary screwdriver when you have to poke about possible static places....just a bad thought !
Btw...i bought a beautiful tiny circular magnet with a hole in the center that slides the magnet right down the shaft of a posi 1 sized long stem screwdriver.....as you get down into the bowels of the printer....just slide the magnet down the shaft to catch the screw before it falls off....the magnet unit also have a circular plate that completely neutralises the magnetic field if you just want to focus on one screw but nothing else.....you probably have a great range of those magnets where you live.......just thought i would mention it....also it wont work if the space is too narrow ...back to the magnetised screwdriver on its own....
Thanks
Matt
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Blue moon
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« Reply #1312 on: February 19, 2013, 08:56:47 AM »
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Eric
You never surprise me...
Look at the amount of knowledge you gained from twisted metal....that what started out being a twisted piece of metal and a fed up Eric in actual fact turned out telling you about ink flows..in ways that would never be indicative or conclusive from smooth head operation alone...you now know why things work and dont work for the first time......
You are learning more from the rough than the smooth..
.... You will probably end up being a forensic scientist in no time...

Are you completely against pulling ink backwards through the head or is it just pushing ink forward thats a no go...need to know before i photoflo into the unknown.......i am definitely going to drip feed with an elephant syringe....but will i power syringe backwards after the drip session....what do you think ?
Thanks
Matt
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davidh202
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« Reply #1313 on: February 19, 2013, 09:34:44 AM »
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Eric,
  I have a question on that first image of the chamber and pieces.
It appears that the ends of the channels are balled up. is that just balls of ink at the broken edges, or is it what I am thinking as actually melted metal, same as the ends of a light bulb filament when it blows out due to burning not breaking?

If it those edges are melted, then they were fried before you did the ultrasonic, and the ultrasonic simply broke the already damaged parts apart and left scattered pieces within the chambers!
David
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1314 on: February 19, 2013, 10:31:31 AM »
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davidh202, I combed over the images again this morning - looking specifically for balled over chamber wall ends.  I find only hard edges, either of the original ends which are tapered actually, or of the broken edges.  I actually have yet to find visible evidence of anything melting in these piezoboards.

Blue moon
, the only sucking that goes on in these machines comes from the pump and cap assembly.  It builds negative pressure once sealed against the face of the head, then sucks ink through the face of the head in the direction that ink flows during printing.  I see warning signs surrounding the idea of creating negative pressure "artificially" against the face of these heads, and sucking ink (or cleaner) out manually.  One of the most sensitive parts of these heads is the bond between the printhead face and the top of the piezoboard.  I don't plan on jeopardizing that.  I've done enough jeopardizing...

thanks for the props guys, it helps maintain motivation.
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1315 on: February 19, 2013, 12:09:22 PM »
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This just in from the Juggler about his 11880.  Epson tells him they won't sell him the replacement steel carriage drive belt.  They directed him to nationalparts.com, who have the part listed on their website.  Nationalparts tells him it's out of stock, he has to pay for it fully before they'll check with Epson to see if/when they can get it.  "Could take weeks."   

I feel bad for our friend the Juggler, he can't wait a month he's got jobs to do, so it's back to Decision1 for him.  They just left his place with 3 grand a few months ago.  You might think during a service call they'd lube his rails too.  What the hell they replaced his pump and cap for no apparent reason. 

Oh and Decision1 told him they plan to change his pump and cap assembly again when they come to install his drive belt, and that they'd bring a new head just in case.  WTF does an X900 pump and cap assembly have to do with a broken drive belt?


There has GOT to be a better way.
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BrianWJH
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« Reply #1316 on: February 19, 2013, 05:48:53 PM »
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There has GOT to be a better way.

While this parts supplier http://www.gedat-spareparts.com/epson/Inkjet_Printers/STYLUS_PRO_11880/list
is based in Germany they do list the drive belt as follows:
"Reference: 524 STEEL BELT ASSY.,TB-31686" for 98,92eur plus shipping. not sure if they ship to the USA.

The reference 524 refers to their pdf exploded parts assembly document here: http://www.gedat-spareparts.com/ex/stylus_pro118800.pdf

hth, Brian.
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Eric Gulbransen
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« Reply #1317 on: February 19, 2013, 06:09:33 PM »
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Awesome Brian, I will ping the juggler now. 

many thanks brother
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davidh202
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« Reply #1318 on: February 19, 2013, 06:12:12 PM »
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I feel bad for our friend the Juggler, he can't wait a month he's got jobs to do, so it's back to Decision1 for him.  They just left his place with 3 grand a few months ago.  You might think during a service call they'd lube his rails too.  What the hell they replaced his pump and cap for no apparent reason.  

Oh and Decision1 told him they plan to change his pump and cap assembly again when they come to install his drive belt, and that they'd bring a new head just in case.  WTF does an X900 pump and cap assembly have to do with a broken drive belt?
There has GOT to be a better way.

That's a total load of horse pucky as Sherman T Potter used to say!
Did he try Compass Micro in Oregon? 503-408-8725
appears to be same 524 part # on their diagram on page 3 if I am reading correctly.  
http://www.compassmicro.com/files/SPro%2011880%20exploded%20diag.pdf
these guys may not stock all parts but order on an as needed basis from Epson .
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 06:22:58 PM by davidh202 » Logged
enduser
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« Reply #1319 on: February 19, 2013, 10:18:25 PM »
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The thesis below is a big read, but a fair bit of info in it nevertheless.

http://doc.utwente.nl/58366/1/thesis_Wijshoff.pdf

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