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Author Topic: Epson Exhibition Canvas Recommendations  (Read 22894 times)
Dano Steinhardt
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« on: February 01, 2012, 02:12:20 PM »
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With the recent posts regarding the Epson Exhibition Canvas family, I thought many here would be interested in some recommendations and answers to repeating questions.

I’m with Epson America and will try not to sound too much like “the marketing guy”….

With that said, in the past few years I’ve printed almost every print on display at Epson’s photographic trade shows in the United States, and have real world hands-on experience with printing on all the Signature Worthy branded papers on a variety of Epson printers.  So I’ve made all the mistakes that you can learn from  Smiley

The following is specific to the Epson Exhibition Canvas family and not to older Epson branded products or different Epson branded products that might be found outside of North America.

I will try to stay in summary mode and it’s easiest to think in a backwards workflow starting with top-coating.


Coating Epson Exhibition Canvas
If using MK ink, a top-coat should be used.
If using PK ink, a top-coat is often not required.

Most (not all) canvas is stretched and then displayed/exposed to the elements.  Without a top-coat, a MK printed canvas may be damaged by a variety of sources from fingerprints to sneezes.  If behind glass, those fingerprints and sneezes are not an issue, but most (not all) canvas is not displayed behind glass.  Canvas produced with PK ink is more durable than with MK ink, and in many cases does not require top-coating for handling. 


Brushing, Rolling and Spraying Epson Exhibition Canvas
Exhibition Canvas Matte: A top-coat can be applied by either brushing, rolling or spraying.  Wait 48 hours in a temperature and RH controlled environment before top-coating. 

Exhibition Canvas Satin: If top-coating, it should be applied by spraying. Wait 48 hours in a temperature and RH controlled environment before top-coating.  Some have success rolling a top-coat, but more report ink collection on the roller and thus the recommendation to spray.

Exhibition Canvas Gloss: If top-coating, it should be applied by spraying.  Wait 48 hours in a temperature and RH controlled environment before top-coating.  Some have success rolling a top-coat, but more report ink collection on the roller and thus the recommendation to spray.


MK or PK , Why Are There Profiles for Both with Satin?
Exhibition Canvas Matte: Only MK profiles are posted because only MK ink will work.

Exhibition Canvas Satin: MK and PK profiles are posted.  MK can yield slightly better DMax, but in most cases requires top-coating.  PK still produces excellent quality, and in most cases does not require top-coating.

Exhibition Canvas Gloss: Only PK profiles are posted.  MK will work but there is little quality benefit compared to PK.  And in most cases, PK does not require top-coating.


Why 3 Canvases?
Exhibition Canvas Matte: It’s less expensive than Satin and Gloss and via top-coating, one can make a Matte, Satin or Gloss finish.  Of the three canvases in the family, Exhibition Canvas Matte can be top-coated by either rolling, brushing or spraying.

Exhibition Canvas Satin: It’s more expensive than Matte, but in many cases does not require top-coating and has a Satin/Semigloss finish.

Exhibition Canvas Gloss: Its more expensive than Matte, but in many cases does not require top-coating and has a glossier finish.


Driver Settings for Epson Printers (4900, 7890, 7900, 9890, 9900)
Exhibition Canvas Matte with MK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Watercolor Radiant White as the Media Type

Exhibition Canvas Satin with MK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Watercolor Radiant White as the Media Type

Exhibition Canvas Satin with PK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) as the Media Type
Adjust color density to -6%

Exhibition Canvas Gloss with PK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) as the Media Type
Adjust color density to -13%

Do not set the Media Type to “Canvas.”  Be sure to adjust color density under Advanced Settings if recommended in the PDF posted with each profile.

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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Johnny_Boy
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 03:04:28 PM »
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Thanks for that info. It is interesting to note that we should not set the media type to canvas.

For those who are using Canon printers, I wonder what media settings should be used?

BTW, do you know if matte canvas with satin coat would be basically the same look as the satin canvas? Do one has better saturation and DMAX than the other?
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 03:15:22 PM »
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And I have the first correction Cheesy

The color density numbers when using PK and Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) will change depending on the printer. 

In my zeal to keep things simple, I only quoted numbers from just one printer.

Bottom Line: Be sure to read the PDF that accompanies each profile for the correct media type setting and if a color density setting outside of the default is recommended.

Dano
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 03:22:50 PM »
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Thanks for that info. It is interesting to note that we should not set the media type to canvas.

When I mentioned how others can learn from my mistakes, this was one of them!

It sure seems logical that if printing canvas one should select canvas but:

The canvas media type setting in the driver was built for older generation products that required different ink loads, drying times etc.

In some cases, setting the media type to canvas with Exhibition Canvas can lead to coating problems later on.

Dano

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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 03:46:59 PM »
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BTW, do you know if matte canvas with satin coat would be basically the same look as the satin canvas? Do one has better saturation and DMAX than the other?

Of the tests I've done and other tests I've seen, Exhibition Canvas Matte with a satin/semigloss top-coat, can look like Exhibition Canvas Satin without a top-coat.  This was a visual assessment and not densitometric.  There might be a densitometric delta, but visually one that is not significant. 

There are several different top-coating products on the market and there may be variability between those particular products satin/semigloss characteristics.

Dano
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bill t.
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 04:59:10 PM »
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Hey Dano, congrats on the nice Epson booth at the WCAF show!

I really liked the great side-by-side presentation of the all Epson papers with examples shown under gallery-like conditions, framed and matted consistently minus the glass.  What a terrific idea!  It was so easy to see what each paper was really about which is just about impossible when thumbing through swatch books, etc.  You really created a new standard with that setup.

Also, that GS6000...oooohhhh-weeeee!  Sweet!  You got me all worked up over that thing.  I think I saw at least three of those sprinkled around the show.

Edit...to bring this back on topic, that turtle shot on the uncoated glossy canvas is really pretty darned glossy indeed and there is very little I can do to mess it up!  Impressive.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:12:58 PM by bill t. » Logged
Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 05:31:10 PM »
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Thanks!

I designed the framing without glass/leaving a border/in a gallery lit environment/in color and BW, so attendees could get a better visual feel of the different Signature Worthy papers, and a literal feel by touching the prints.

As such, I usually have to reprint many of them due to palm and fingerprints, but its a much better way to demonstrate the papers than a swatch book.

One of the advantages of the GS6000 is high volume canvas printing.

The inks are solvent based so top-coating is not required.

Dano
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JohnHeerema
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 06:39:21 AM »
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Thanks very much for this helpful information!

I've been using Exhibition Canvas Gloss for most of my canvas printing of late, and quite like it. I'm interested to read that you've switched the recommendation from MK to PK for this canvas, as it originally only had an MK profile (in fact, I had no idea that there even was a PK profile until I read your post above).

Regards,
John
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Noro
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 08:42:36 AM »
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I had been using Epson Premium Canvas Matte and getting good results.  I was disappointed to learn that it was discontinued and that a color profile was not provided for the Epson 3800 for the new canvases. Are there any plans to create profiles for the Epson 3800?     if not, would I be able to use profiles from the 3880? Thanks, Steve
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Landscapes
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 01:44:14 PM »
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For those who are using Canon printers, I wonder what media settings should be used?


I had first been using a Canon canvas and used the "canvas matte 2" setting.  When I got the Epson canvas, this setting worked quite well with my custom profile.  I did go about reprofiling for the Epson canvas and upon doing some tests to see what would be the best media setting, I found that I was getting much better shadow detail on the setting Special 6.  The good thing about this setting as well is that it allows 3mm margins, something that the canvas setting wouldn't.  My understanding is that special 1-5 uses PK ink, and 6-10 uses matte black, with the amount of ink laid down increasing as you go up.  I made a custom printing target where I had really black patches, 255,254,253 etc, and also really light patches 000,001,002, etc for the primary colors and found special 6 to work better than some other recommendations I read about such as special 8 or watercolor.

Anyway, so for me special 6 works, but only with my custom profile, not sure how it would look on Auto.  For $25 at inkjetart, you really can't go wrong.
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Landscapes
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 02:00:54 PM »
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Dano,

Nice to see some official feedback from the top!  I certainly started 2 threads myself on this canvas so I wanted to reply here.  Now I am using this canvas with a Canon iPF6100, so not really sure how much different the pigment ink is when compared to Epson ink, so I have to keep this in mind.

As I said in my previous posts, the matte canvas I found to be gorgeous, especially when it comes to handling and stretching.  Once coated, it was so easy to stretch and saved me so much time.  The satin one though I found to be like cardboard too much and the way it curls up gave my poor printer some trouble.  It did still stretch ok, but given the extra stiffness, you have to really stretch it tight to get out any creases.  I had made the mistake of using MK black ink on the satin one and the black inks ran like crazy (once again though... canon ink).  Now it is true that I didn't leave it to dry for 2 days and went to coating several hours later, but this was of course dictated by when I needed to get it all done (and the way I worked with the matte canvas and didn't have any problems).  Even after coating, when I was stretching, the full black border that was printed to stretch around the side was just too fragile.  Perhaps it doesn't continue to dry anymore once its been coated (i would think it can dry from the back, albeit more slowly), but I was hoping that it would.  Next time I need to use it, I would for sure use the PK ink and hope that this would solve the problems.

As someone else who commented in my other thread also said, canvas that will be sold really should be coated, and if this is the case, using the matte canvas and getting your final finish from whatever coating you apply is in my opinion the best option.  You save money, and work with a canvas that is much more flexible than the satin or gloss one.  You do of course mention this as well so I just wanted to let everyone out there know that yes, this is the best option.  I think you'd have to have a pretty good and specific reason for choosing to work with the satin or glossy canvas.  (oh wait... the guys with the epson printers spend too much money to switch between matte and photo black ink so this may just be it! LOL)  (sorry about the jab!!!)


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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 02:23:34 PM »
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Are there any plans to create profiles for the Epson 3800?     if not, would I be able to use profiles from the 3880? Thanks, Steve

Unfortunately the 3880 profile for Exhibition Canvas Matte is not optimized for printing color with the 3800.  The 3880 has a different ink set and screening algorithm than the 3800. 

Dano

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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 03:09:35 PM »
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Dano,

Nice to see some official feedback from the top!  I certainly started 2 threads myself on this canvas so I wanted to reply here.  Now I am using this canvas with a Canon iPF6100, so not really sure how much different the pigment ink is when compared to Epson ink, so I have to keep this in mind.  The satin one though I found to be like cardboard too much and the way it curls up gave my poor printer some trouble.  It did still stretch ok, but given the extra stiffness, you have to really stretch it tight to get out any creases. 

Thanks!

And I'm told Canon makes very nice cameras  Smiley

In addition to an improved Dmax and wider gamut, the Exhibition Canvas family is designed to prevent cracking/pinholes.  As such, it will need some more tension when stretching but it should be manageable. 

I produced a series of videos on the Signature Worthy papers.  For Exhibition Canvas Gloss I worked with a surfing photographer named Sean Davey.  Because of deadlines I successfully stretched canvases on his floor with basic tools before we shot. Though I accidentally stapled the edge of my index finger and uttered a few profane words.....

Check it out in the link below and check out how Sean dries his canvases.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/FocalPoints/Story/SignatureWorthy_Photographic.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes

Dano



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Dan Berg
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 03:46:50 PM »
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Dano,

Thank you for the very informative media info,greatly appreciated.

Not wanting to start a new thread or hijack this one only a very quick comment.
Please look at at Eric's thread about his 7900 issues when you have a free moment.
3000 views in less then 2 weeks. Tomorrow it may be at 4000!
What we need more then anything from Epson at this point is a liason that can help with some of these issues we are fighting.
It is just one losing battle after another with no help in sight.
Tech support may not be your department but as you are probably already saying "Those decisions are made at a much higher pay grade then mine"


Edited to add.
 Dano,a special thanks for reaching out.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 11:02:46 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

iCanvas
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 08:19:00 AM »
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Dano,

What is the platen gap setting for the Epson Exhibition Satin Canvas? We have a 9900 and I have been setting it at the max which is I think 4. I have not been able to print on this canvas with the normal setting. The print head will strike the edge of the canvas because of its thickness.

I initially didn't like this canvas. For over 5 years I have rolled the coating. I now have to spray and that is a learning curve. I will soon be purchasing a Fuji mini mite 3 for this. The Dmax on this canvas brings my files to life and the sales are good. So the investment in a good sprayer is worth it to me.

WHY COULDN'T EPSON HAVE PUT A WATER RESISTANT COATING ON THIS CANVAS? That seems like a no brainer. All the previous Epson canvas had this coating.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 08:21:30 AM by iCanvas » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 12:27:56 PM »
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Dano - I noticed that you recommend NOT to use the Canvas media setting. Why is that? I've used that setting as the basis for making my own profiles and it has worked very very well. Or is it that your own canned profiles were made with a different setting and they wouldn't be valid using Canvas?

Peter Figen
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 12:52:58 PM »
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Dano,
What is the platen gap setting for the Epson Exhibition Satin Canvas? We have a 9900 and I have been setting it at the max which is I think 4. I have not been able to print on this canvas with the normal setting. The print head will strike the edge of the canvas because of its thickness.

The recommended platen gap setting for either PK or MK ink with Exhibition Canvas Satin is, “Auto”.  But depending on the temperature and relative humidity where the printer is located the platen gap may need to be set, as you have, to “Wide”.  This is especially true in the winter when indoor relative humidity is often at its lowest.

Dano
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 01:30:27 PM »
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Dano,
WHY COULDN'T EPSON HAVE PUT A WATER RESISTANT COATING ON THIS CANVAS? That seems like a no brainer. All the previous Epson canvas had this coating.

In order to achieve the improvements in Dmax (that you mentioned are bringing your files to life) and color gamut along with the much requested no cracking or pinholes, these new canvases do not dry instantly.  Exhibition Canvas Satin and Exhibition Canvas Gloss are water resistant, for most users, after a 24-hour drying period.  In high humidity environments, 48-hours may be required and why that time is mentioned for general recommendations.  Exhibition Canvas Matte is not water resistant and another reason why it should be coated.  But with Exhibition Canvas Matte the coatings can be applied via rolling, brushing or spraying.  Where with the Satin and Gloss, only spraying will work.

The term, "Water Resistant" has, over time, taken on multiple meanings with regards to canvas printing.  The inks in the printers used by most in this forum are aqueous (water) based.  So ironically it would be impossible to print on a true water resistant canvas.

Dano
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Dano Steinhardt
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 01:47:49 PM »
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Dano - I noticed that you recommend NOT to use the Canvas media setting. Why is that? I've used that setting as the basis for making my own profiles and it has worked very very well. Or is it that your own canned profiles were made with a different setting and they wouldn't be valid using Canvas?
Peter Figen

The "Canvas" media setting was designed for earlier generations of canvas which had different ink-load characteristics.

Regardless if you use the Epson profile or generate your own, you will have a better result using Watercolor Radiant White for MK and Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) for PK with the Exhibition Canvas family.

Dano
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JohnHeerema
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 06:52:36 PM »
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Dano,

I wonder if I might ask a question about the profiles for Epson Exhibition Canvas Gloss?

Comparing the MK profile with the new PK profile, I see higher Dmax and lower L for the MK profile, but both profiles show identical gamut volumes (1,593,059). I assume that the PK gamut volume got missed when the profile was updated, as it is bound to be smaller than the MK gamut volume - do you happen to have the correct figure for the gamut volume when using the PK profile?

Thanks!
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