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Author Topic: Epson 3880 Pizza Wheel Marks vs. Paper Used  (Read 8397 times)
ZoranC
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« on: February 02, 2012, 05:20:48 PM »
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I have ordered Epson 3880 that should be here soon. One thing I became aware of during my research of the printer is that sometimes it leaves pizza wheel marks. When I talked to Epson pre-sales support about them they claimed that I will not experience them with Epson papers, that they occur only when using 3rd party papers.

Naturally, when my printer arrives I would like to test whether I will be experiencing pizza wheel marks with my copy. For that purpose I would need your advice on following questions:

1. When using which Epson paper I am most likely to end up with such marks? I would like to test with that to check Epson's assertion I will not have problems as long as I use their papers.

2. When using which 3rd party paper I am most likely to end up with such marks? I would like to test with that to check how likely it is I am going to get such marks with my copy.

3. Does paper size affect how likely I will end up witgh such marks? If yes what is the best print size to test with?

4. Any suggestions what testing procedure should look like? What photo I should use, etc?

Thank you in advance!
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 05:29:26 PM »
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I have used the following papers and never observed pizza wheel marks with my 3880:  Gloss papers (which I think are the ones people have commented on) Museo Silver Rag, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, Canson Plantine Rag; matte papers Museo Portfolio Rag, Hahnemuhle Photorag Ultra Smooth, Canson Rag Photographique.   I have regularly printed with all these papers on letter and 13x19 sizes with B/W and color images of all types.

Alan
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 06:06:59 PM »
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Epson's first line of defense on any issues with paper feed is that you need to use their papers. It's nonsense. There are configurable settings in the driver, easily accessible - mainly the platen gap and the paper thickness settings, and they even tell you exactly how to use them - that will allow you to feed all the third party papers Alan mentioned and more - successfully. Don't worry about it and don't feel confined to Epson paper.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
AFairley
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 06:14:48 PM »
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Plus, this seems to vary from printer to printer anyway (some people get them, some don't).  So print on whatever you want, at the correct settings as Mark suggests, and don't worry unless you have a problem, in which case you can look for alternatives.
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ZoranC
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 06:18:08 PM »
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I do not feel confined to Epson papers but pizza wheel marks on 3880 are not something unheard of, people did and do have them, and I am trying to find a way how to see whether I too will be ending up with them, so any input on which papers in particular would be most prone to them at default printer settings would be appreciated.
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chaddro
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 07:14:36 PM »
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From what I've read, and I've been reading about this since I bought my 3800, it more typically visible one gloss paper where a heavy amount of dark ink has been laid down, then then only visible when viewed at a certain angle... much like looking for gloss differential.

You can avoid this using the front paper feed, but you sacrifice printable area.

This had been discussed a great deal in the printer forum at dpreview.com.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 07:34:29 PM »
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I used a 3800 for three years with a range of media and never experienced pizza wheel marks. But I seem to recall it was known to happen with some of the earlier ones produced.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ZoranC
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 07:44:45 PM »
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From what I've read, and I've been reading about this since I bought my 3800, it more typically visible one gloss paper where a heavy amount of dark ink has been laid down, then then only visible when viewed at a certain angle... much like looking for gloss differential.

Thank you! So something like Premium Photo or Glossy Exhibition would reveal any issues best? Does paper thickness make a difference in general?

This had been discussed a great deal in the printer forum at dpreview.com.
I am trying to find related posts there, found some recent ones but not all.
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ZoranC
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 07:45:35 PM »
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I used a 3800 for three years with a range of media and never experienced pizza wheel marks. But I seem to recall it was known to happen with some of the earlier ones produced.

According to posts I have seen on DPR newer ones are not immune to it.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 08:00:15 PM »
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See Eric Chan's notes on the Epson 3800 HERE.  With few exceptions, they are equally applicable to the 3880 (ink set and print head are different).  As others have said (me included) they have not observed this with their printer.  If you use third part papers, you need to figure out the thickness of the paper and set that in the print dialogue box since they are non-Epson and the Epson settings are not likely to be the same.  For example (and I'm thinking off the top of my head here since I don't have my printer software open) the luster default in the Epson driver is for a thinner paper than Ilford Gold Fiber Silk which also uses the same setting so you need to go in and change it (if I remember correctly the Ilford paper is 4 and the Epson 3).  You can also change the platten gap to wide (I do this for all the papers I print on) and I use the rear feed for all the papers I print on.  As Eric notes this really is a non-issue if you are printing on matte papers.  Ultimately you will have to determine what paper you like to print on and set things up in the print driver software to deal with it. 
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 08:03:00 PM »
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Alan - yes, for the thicker papers those settings you suggest here are what I used while I had that printer. Worked fine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Peter Le
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 09:44:57 PM »
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        The 3800 and 3880`s I have seen this happen on it was cured by turning off high speed printing. When a lot of ink is laid down on gloss paper sometimes it is not drying fast enough. Turning off high speed in the Epson driver gives the ink more drying time. Prints only on one pass direction ....not both.
       Peter
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ZoranC
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »
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See Eric Chan's notes on the Epson 3800 HERE.  With few exceptions, they are equally applicable to the 3880 (ink set and print head are different).  As others have said (me included) they have not observed this with their printer.  If you use third part papers, you need to figure out the thickness of the paper and set that in the print dialogue box since they are non-Epson and the Epson settings are not likely to be the same.  For example (and I'm thinking off the top of my head here since I don't have my printer software open) the luster default in the Epson driver is for a thinner paper than Ilford Gold Fiber Silk which also uses the same setting so you need to go in and change it (if I remember correctly the Ilford paper is 4 and the Epson 3).  You can also change the platten gap to wide (I do this for all the papers I print on) and I use the rear feed for all the papers I print on.  As Eric notes this really is a non-issue if you are printing on matte papers.  Ultimately you will have to determine what paper you like to print on and set things up in the print driver software to deal with it. 
I certainly hope that this turns out to be a non-issue and that it is all addressable through print settings, but then reports of people not being able to address it through any of the settings, like one bellow, make me scratch my head:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1003&message=40343749
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 05:33:09 AM »
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Zoran, the internet is a huge universe where you will read about everything and anything that has happened to anyone. My advice: ignore it. When you get your printer, try it and see what happens. Only if you encounter problems then you need to resolve them. and Peter: interesting observation about the High Speed. As I never print with High Speed On, I wonder if this could be one reason why I never had the problem, though I strongly suspect the main reason is that not a large proportion of these machines experienced that issue.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 06:52:27 AM »
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I always print with high speed on since my testing shows no visible difference (and I think the recent C2P&S that Jeff and Michael did recommends doing the same thing for the printers they used in the tutorial.  This may a printer dependent issue like the clogging on the 7900 that is being discussed on another thread.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 07:00:39 AM »
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Alan, yes, I'm, well aware of what they recommend in C2P, but for higher quality Epson continues to recommend leaving it off. From page 96 of the 4900 Manual: "High Speed for fast, bidirectional printing. For higher quality, make sure you deselect this option."  Note they say "make sure". To be honest, I'm in no rush so I just leave it off. I haven't blind-tested for quality difference.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
howardm
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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 07:25:42 AM »
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But by similar logic, Epson says only Epson paper will work in their printers  Roll Eyes

I've had a 3800 since 2008, use HS pretty much all the time and have not seen any pizza wheel issues at all on lustre/baryta papers (or any others in reality).

As Bill said 'Much ado about nothing' Smiley   If it's a real (vs hypothetical) problem then deal w/ it.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 08:09:38 AM »
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Howard - no it is not "similar logic" - they don't say only Epson papers work in their printers. It's true that if you have paper feeding or paper-related issues, the first line of defense from their tech support is that you need to test using Epson paper. They do this because the characteristics of their own papers are known and predictable to them, so for trouble-shooting purposes it could make a certain amount of sense to start from that base. I have written confirmation from Epson that the printer should be perfectly capable of using numerous third-party papers.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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thetoness
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 10:43:04 AM »
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I encountered the "pizza wheel" marks when printing black and white on my 3880 using Baryta Photogrphique paper.  Turning off high speed cured the problem.
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ZoranC
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« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 11:17:33 AM »
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Zoran, the internet is a huge universe where you will read about everything and anything that has happened to anyone. My advice: ignore it. When you get your printer, try it and see what happens. Only if you encounter problems then you need to resolve them.

That is exactly why I started this thread, to find out best way to try for myself.
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