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Author Topic: Questions on updating Mac Pro hard drives for those large D800 files.  (Read 9787 times)
Dan Berg
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« on: February 07, 2012, 05:20:49 PM »
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Only 5 years with a D2Xs and my 4 internal hard drives are filling up.
My IT guy is coming out in a week to update my OS from 10.5.8 to 10.6.7 so Lightroom 4 will work.
At the same time he offered to go over my entire system and clean things up.
Trying to decide what to do with hard drives as I am about full up and this would be a great time to update the drives.
Presently I have 2-500gb and 2 -1tb. The tb's are set up as a raid.
Would it make more sense to just leave these 4 drives alone and get a large external system?
I have a NEX 7 and D800 on the way and they will chew up space big time.
Drobo S?
Suggestions?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 05:26:53 PM by Dan Berg » Logged

John.Murray
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 06:35:52 PM »
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since you are upgrading your O/S, why not get a 256-320GB SSD for O/S (tuck it under your optical drive) and 4 3TB's in RAID-10 giving you 6TB useable storage?

Put the 500GB O/S in a firewire enclosure for alternative boot / sanity check - after file transfer, use the other for offsite storage.....
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phila
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 05:49:13 PM »
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since you are upgrading your O/S, why not get a 256-320GB SSD for O/S (tuck it under your optical drive)

+1 This is what I have done. Makes a major difference!

http://eshop.macsales.com/owcpages/multimount/

Then add one of these:

http://firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-2me4-e/

and connect either of these:

http://firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-2eEN4/

http://firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-5pm/
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Schewe
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 06:54:03 PM »
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Suggestions?

I agree with doing SSDs for boot. I've gotten several external drive systems from MacGurus. The guys there are really helpful. My main drive setup is the 6 bay enclosure set up as RAID 0 for speed. I have a duplicate system sitting next to it which gets backed up every night. My 3rd online backup has been to a Drobo Pro but I've been having rebooting problems and it currently won't mount. So, I just ordered a 5 bay RAID 5 Firewire drive with 3TB drives from Micronet. Haven't gotten it yet so no feedback but I think I'm done with Drobo...

I bought this base setup just before SSDs got practical...my internal drives are 15K SAS drives arrayed with a Mac RAID card. It's very fast but if I were to redo it, I would switch to SSDs for the internals...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 06:55:39 PM by Schewe » Logged
Dan Berg
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 07:08:06 PM »
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Very helpful thanks to all.
Understand most of this but will let my Mac guy read this thread.
Have to do a little research to see where the costs are.
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langier
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 09:51:41 PM »
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According to the Google White Paper on HDs, useful life on drives peaks roughly at three years then the failure rate starts to catch up on them.

I've been making a point to double-up on my drives and mirror the files "knuckle-head" style yearly, them stashing the back-up off site. What I mean by that is to simply drag the files to both drives once they have been processed and ready to archive.

The drives are in a pair of eSata jbod boxes and each is hot-swapable as needed. No need to take the MacPro apart to pull the drives!

On my older files that once were on several 250GB drives, I consolidated to a newer TB drive with room to spare, then a couple of years ago, brought them forward to an even newer drive. I now have two back-up drives along with a stack of DVDs.

I'd say, replace all your drives with faster, larger and (somewhat) cheaper drives with your updated system and save the hassles of simply grafting 10.7 over 10.6.

For 2010 and 2011, I was able to save it all on a 2TB drive and a dupe that will now be stashed with the other back-up drives. A couple of weeks ago, I took all the drives in the archives and fired them up to see if they still functioned (they did!). For 2012 with a couple of D800s on the way, I'm going to start on a 1.5TB drive I stocked up on last year before the Thai floods and see how it goes. I'm waiting for the drives to come done again and will probably settle on 3TB drives to take me through the end of 2013 with the new, bloated NEF files.

Hopefully, with only 4 fps motor rate, I'll be shooting a little slower and since I still have a few DX lenses, I'll simply shoot to the DX crop! We'll see how it goes...
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Larry Angier
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 12:55:15 PM »
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Dan,

I'm not sure I would go with SSDs for everything yet, they scare me, however I do have them holding my OS on my various systems and laptops.

1 - SSD for OS
1 - SSD for programs

Get all the latest updates, make sure it's 100% stable and then Ghost both drives, this will save you lots of time in the future.

Install a couple Raptors or similar fast 10,000 rpm drives or preferably ditch the Mac and go with a PC installing SAS
Don't be fuzzy about installing SCSI. :-)  I believe you can get a SAS card for a MAC and install SAS, haven't done it.

Install a back-up external enclosure.

You are done....

Just an FYI, I have been building systems since 1998 and haven't had a SCSI drive fail yet.  Though all drives will eventually fail, SCSI has been proven to be the most reliable, I guess that's why banks use them.

Garry

Ps,  I treat my photos differently, I have a folder just for prints and they are ranked 1-10, I also burn these onto DVD
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 01:00:46 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
jonathan.lipkin
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 07:01:47 PM »
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Peter Krogh has a very good book on workflow best practices, called The DAM book, or the Digital Asset Management book. Also, he has a site with most of the info which he did for the smithsonian, or other museum, but I can't remember the url.
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Schewe
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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 07:09:13 PM »
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Just an FYI, I have been building systems since 1998 and haven't had a SCSI drive fail yet.  Though all drives will eventually fail, SCSI has been proven to be the most reliable, I guess that's why banks use them.

I've had SCSI drives fail...SCSI is no magic bullet. All HDs fail, it's only a question of when. The odds are, it'll be the one drive that ISN'T back up that will fail. That's my experience...if you have it backed up, the life of the HD seems to be extended...

Personally, I do a triple (3X) backup on working files and regular 2x backups on OS & Apps...
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chaddro
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 08:45:01 PM »
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I've had SCSI drives fail...SCSI is no magic bullet. All HDs fail, it's only a question of when. The odds are, it'll be the one drive that ISN'T back up that will fail. That's my experience...if you have it backed up, the life of the HD seems to be extended...

Personally, I do a triple (3X) backup on working files and regular 2x backups on OS & Apps...

This is so true, it's prophetic!

In fact, just this week end while going through my STACKS of hard drives (including many PATA), my ONE non-duplicate drive holding some 250 gig of media gave me the "whirrrrr.... click click click" that I know so well as the death throes of a failed drive. A seagate 250gb 7200.10 sata with 3 month left of it's 5 year warranty! It has been sitting in a drawer for perhaps a year untouched. I thought at the time what could go wrong, it's not even PLUGGED IN! OS won't even recognize it. OFF TO SEAGATE it went this morning.

Fate is a cruel mistress! Having said that, if you don't have OFF SITE backups, you are still at risk. Fire and theft are just as cruel!
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 09:26:33 PM »
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People, please read, I said

"Just an FYI, I have been building systems since 1998 and haven't had a SCSI drive fail yet.  Though all drives will eventually fail, SCSI has been proven to be the most reliable, I guess that's why banks use them."

I have had many non-SCSI drives fail, the point here being, SCSI has a much more reliable longevity record than non-scsi.  They aren't a "magic bullet" whatever that means, but if you want speed and a proven drive that will last, SCSI is the answer.  And I do agree it will be the drive that isn't backed up that will fail first.  My first IMac purchase I didn't back up because I had the mistaken belief that Apple computers were built using "better" components and therefore more reliable than other computers (except mine) I was wrong and it took me a lot of effort to get back all my data.  As I stated, ALL hard drives fail, but as it stands today of all the drives we are using SCSI has the best reliability.  I'm still using SCSI drives from 1999.  It's just a suggestion from somebody who has used and installed more than 2 SCSI drives :-).

Garry

« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:31:19 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
John.Murray
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 11:34:05 PM »
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SCSI what?  SCSI Wide?  SCSI LVD?  Ultra 160/320?  SAS?

SCSI is a drive interface specification - it has *nothing* to do with drive design per se.... 

I'll readily agree that enterprise spec drives (basically vibration tolerance - extended feedback of head  vs: platter position below it) are desirable, the fact remains that today's sata/sas drives are more reliable than ever.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2012, 04:51:03 AM »
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"SCSI what?  SCSI Wide?  SCSI LVD?  Ultra 160/320?  SAS?

SCSI is a drive interface specification - it has *nothing* to do with drive design per se....

I'll readily agree that enterprise spec drives (basically vibration tolerance - extended feedback of head  vs: platter position below it) are desirable, the fact remains that today's sata/sas drives are more reliable than ever."

John,

Read my post again GEEZ, I mean you seem awfully perspicacious to me, but read it again. Also, SCSI is NOT a drive interface specification! There are many different types of SCSI interface and not just for "drives"
And, we in the industry put the SCSI always as the Latter.  Low Voltage Differential came out as Ultra 2 SCSI or LVD SCSI. get it?  

"Install a couple Raptors or similar fast 10,000 rpm drives or preferably ditch the Mac and go with a PC installing SAS
Don't be fuzzy about installing SCSI. :-)  I believe you can get a SAS card for a MAC and install SAS, haven't done it."

Did I mention Wide, Ultra Wide, Ultra2, Ultra3, Ultra 320, Ultra 640, FC, SSA, SSA 40, FC-AL 1GB, FC-AL 2GB,?  NO, I didn't, I specifically said SAS

What do YOU call a SCSI drive?  There have been many different interfaces over the years.   What does the acronym SAS stand for?  What's that last word?  I have never met anybody in the industry who doesn't refer to a SCSI (any interface) hard drive as such, so if you are just being pugnacious, good for you.!  SAS stands for Serial Attached SCSI DUH (vs. the older Parallel)

Yes, I also have SCSI CD Rom / Writers and Scanners, etc. but for this conversation we are talking HDs,

And believe it or not being a SCSI drive does have something to do with the way it is built, per se... (Even if we are talking about just the connector :-) ) And I'll stick by my original comment, SCSI drives are much more reliable than IDE, ATA, SATA (non-SCSI) drives and that is probably the reason why the banking industry uses them as well as a lot of other mission critical applications.  I do agree that SCSI drives do fail, all HDs will fail, I stated that before, however as somebody who has used and built (for 1000s of others) countless systems using both SCSI and the non-SCSI variety, I can say unequivocally that SCSI drives are much more reliable.  Plextor drives will fail, I haven't had one fail.  Crucial memory will fail, I haven't had any go bad.  I won't dispute the fact that every mechanical device will eventually fail.. WOW

Garry


« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 05:46:13 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012, 12:13:10 PM »
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NO, I didn't, I specifically said SAS
...
I can say unequivocally that SCSI drives are much more reliable.  

Plextor drives will fail, I haven't had one fail.

1) Please learn to quote properly.

2) Are you aware that the SAS interface is much closer to SATA than to SCSI ? You can even mix drives on the same controllers

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/tips0740.html

SAS has several attractive features, such as a more advanced high level controlling protocol, longer cables, direct backplane connections, etc... It is not intrinsically more reliable than SAS
Seagate, for example, offers the same drive in both interface, with the same ratings

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/enterprise-hard-drives/constellation-es/

3) Plextor? I have a dozen failed ones in my trash hardware closet. If you want to pay shipping, I can send you one of those apparently extremely rare collectors.

4) "banks use SAS drives" as a reliability argument? That's a new one...  
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Schewe
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 02:57:33 PM »
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And I'll stick by my original comment, SCSI drives are much more reliable than IDE, ATA, SATA (non-SCSI) drives and that is probably the reason why the banking industry uses them as well as a lot of other mission critical applications.

I think a lot of the question regarding reliability comes down to the ratings and the warrantees the HD makers give. Most enterprise level HDs come with 5 year warrantees. Some lesser HDs with three year and many/most external HDs in enclosures are repackaged OEM drives with 1 or 2 year warrantees.

The other major factor is heat....heat kills drives. A lot of the cheaper external drive enclosures don't do a great job of heat dispersal. Many rely on passive heat radiators instead of fans. If you have a fast high RPM drive in an enclosure that can't keep the drive cool, you're gonna have really shortened drive life.

The recent drive shortage and industry consolidation is taking a toll. There's talk that many drive makers are going to be reducing their warrantees–which cost them money. I wouldn't even consider buying a drive that didn't have a 3 year warrantee but have made it a practice in the past to only buy drives that have 5 year warrantees. Those specs always cost more but in my experience, they're worth it. But they are harder to find these days...
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 04:43:46 PM »
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I learned to read well before I went to college and I do matriculate from a very fine university.  I don't even need " " to let me know who said what when, but I use them as a point of reference for those who didn't retain what they just read.  If " " are unacceptable to you, perhaps go back to school.....

As far as the drives.  If it were me, I'd personally use Seagate Cheetah 15K drives either using a RAID or not, plenty fast by themselves.

"Are you aware that the SAS interface is much closer to SATA than to SCSI ? You can even mix drives on the same controllers"

Seriously, you aren't worth my time to try and educate you.....

"banks use SAS drives" as a reliability argument? That's a new one... 

If you are going to quote somebody, please quote them accurately....


 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 04:49:15 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
tived
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 04:55:43 PM »
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get the best drives you can afford, have a backup policy in action.

expect all electronics to fail eventually, its only a question of when not if. i tend to agree with schewe, get th drives with 5 year warranty and replace them after 3 years of duty.

5 year warranty drives are usually enterprise drives, or drives the manufactor consider better then average - and they do come at a premium.

however most importantly - have an current and active backup running, by active i mean oe that backs up frequently (frequency - depends on workload), in some if not most cases have multiple backup sets and rotate them.

in the end consider the value of what asset you are trying to protect, and place the value/cost of your backup cost based on the asset value. no point spending $10k on something thats worth $100

So to the OP, get 4x Western digital RE4 drives, or similar Seagate or Hitachi, or 4x enterpris SSD's, yes you are going to be paying alot for this, but you also have to pay alot to recover failed or faulty drives

all the best

Henrik

PS: to the scsi discussion - back when scsi was king - the manufactors build them for the most to last aka enterprise class, but you could also get not so good quality scsi disks
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PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 07:22:28 PM »
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"Are you aware that the SAS interface is much closer to SATA than to SCSI ? You can even mix drives on the same controllers"
Seriously, you aren't worth my time to try and educate you.....

That's OK, don't feel guilty. I lost interest in SCSI after having issues with a couple of multi-threaded I/O SCRIPTS program I wrote for a Symbios controller.
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Farmer
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012, 07:45:57 PM »
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I learned to read well before I went to college and I do matriculate from a very fine university.

My emphasis.

Sorry, but when you make a point of appealing to your own authority (i.e. your level of education), typos such as that really epitomise irony :-)

Jokes aside (and it was, please accept it as so), the reason for quoting that uses the formatting built into the forums is because a lot of people are often reading a lot of forums on a lot of sites and spread over a considerable amount of time.  You might remember what has been written recently, as I suspect do most people, but others who are following or comming to the thread later may not have that advantage.

It's easy to do, and it helps to improve the level of communication.  If you don't want to do it, no one is going to force you, but it's a reasonable request and hardly worthy of the "but I'm erudite and highly edumackated" response.

Just sayin'.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2012, 08:50:02 PM »
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"Sorry, but when you make a point of appealing to your own authority (i.e. your level of education), typos such as that really epitomise irony :-)"

I have no typos in the quote and actually it isn't ironic, but again, I consider the source...  Or are you referring to your "typos"?

These puerile discussions are so ridiculous it just simply makes me laugh.

It doesn't matter how many threads you are participating in, if you are reading this then you should know who wrote what.  

"That's OK, don't feel guilty. I lost interest in SCSI after having issues with a couple of multi-threaded I/O SCRIPTS program I wrote for a Symbios controller."

I'm glad you lost interest, always leave the complex problems for the experts to solve... :-)

I suppose one should extrapolate from this "discussion" we should all buy a Hyundai, it has a longer warranty than any other vehicle sold in the USA, it must be somehow better?  You do realize warranties are a part of marketing and not necessarily indicative of how long an item will last?  Why replace a hard drive if the performance is still there and you have another back up?

Good day, LOL

« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 09:03:51 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
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