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Author Topic: DNG for everyone  (Read 10406 times)
Peter_DL
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 03:22:05 PM »
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Personally, I still use the proprietary raw files in Lightroom because I find it easier to use sidecar .xmp files in LR.

+1  for RAW + .xmp
Unfortunately it does not embed Dng profiles,
as far as I'm aware.

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Schewe
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 04:41:31 PM »
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Unfortunately it does not embed Dng profiles, as far as I'm aware.

Correct...it can't because a .xmp file is strict text only...here's the line from a raw file set to Camera Standard; crs:CameraProfile="Camera Standard"

Actually embedding the profile inside the DNG can be a dual edged sword...once embedded into a DNG, there is no function in ACR/LR to remove it. You can change it, but not remove a DNG profile once embedded...I've asked Thomas and Eric about this and Thomas' answer was a shrug and "why would you want to do that?"...at the time I couldn't really come up with a good answer :~) But it still bothers me that you can't removed an embedded DNG profile...prolly some really weird OCD on my part.
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deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 05:02:55 PM »
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Correct...it can't because a .xmp file is strict text only...here's the line from a raw file set to Camera Standard; crs:CameraProfile="Camera Standard"

.dcp can be represented in a text form ( for example SandyMC /thank you/ created an utility that gives an example = http://dcptool.sourceforge.net )... so technically you can embed DNG profile in .xmp

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Schewe
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 05:04:01 PM »
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... so technically you can embed DNG profile in .xmp

But neither ACR nor LR can...
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digitaldog
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 05:25:45 PM »
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Actually embedding the profile inside the DNG can be a dual edged sword...once embedded into a DNG, there is no function in ACR/LR to remove it. You can change it, but not remove a DNG profile once embedded...

Why would that be a problem?

I thought I recall Eric saying at one point, it is or could be possible to embed multiple profiles in a DNG.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »
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thought I recall Eric saying at one point, it is or could be possible to embed multiple profiles in a DNG.

Yes...you can embed multiple DNG profiles. But there's no function in ACR/LR to remove any DNG profiles. The problem arises when some/any of the DNG profiles are, well FUBAR...you can't get them out of a DNG.
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2012, 06:05:41 PM »
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Not even through Bridge's File Info panel - the Advanced tab?
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wolfnowl
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 09:45:55 PM »
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Alan: This was written for beginner Lightroom users, but might be of interest:
http://www.wolfnowl.com/2012/01/lightroom-file-management-and-metadata/

Mike.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 07:44:30 AM »
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Alan: This was written for beginner Lightroom users, but might be of interest:
http://www.wolfnowl.com/2012/01/lightroom-file-management-and-metadata/

Mike.
Very useful and clear.  Thanks, Alan
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digitaldog
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 10:32:19 AM »
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Yes...you can embed multiple DNG profiles. But there's no function in ACR/LR to remove any DNG profiles. The problem arises when some/any of the DNG profiles are, well FUBAR...you can't get them out of a DNG.

Would this be a FUBAR profile from the beginning someone embedded by mistake or one that goes FUBAR for some reason (corruption)? I’ve never seen this but I’m not sure I’d know what to expect if after the fact, a DNG profile went FUBAR. I’d be concerned if the later were possible (what would be the cause, of just the DNG profile going FUBAR and what else in the DNG could go that route?).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 01:34:17 PM »
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Would this be a FUBAR profile from the beginning someone embedded by mistake or one that goes FUBAR for some reason (corruption)?

It was from somebody who had flailed around in DNG Profile Editor (not me, mind you) who posted a raw with about 1/2 dozen DNG profiles embedded into the DNG–most of them screwed up (goofy color edits). The FUBAR part was that his naming was all over the map and mislabeled in the DNG drop down menu under Profile...

John, I can see al the DNG profiles–particularly if I add snapshots using different profiles but  as far as I know, Bridge treats Camera Raw XMP metadata as read only...

Whether or not a normal user can get into the DNG data and remove a profile is something for Eric to say. As far as I know, you can't.
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 02:13:38 AM »
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John, I can see al the DNG profiles–particularly if I add snapshots using different profiles but  as far as I know, Bridge treats Camera Raw XMP metadata as read only...
Just checked, Jeff, and as far as I can see you are correct.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2012, 07:01:20 AM »
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Correct, Jeff, we don't have any public tools that users can conveniently use to remove profiles (e.g., by name) from DNGs. 

This is easy for a software developer to whip up in the public DNG SDK, though.  (Maybe I'll consider distributing my tool, but it's not very user-friendly ... )
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ario
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2012, 12:41:37 PM »
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Is there any way to store metadata originated by Lightroom into an XMP file when dealing with native DNG's (Leica, Ricoh, Prentax...)? I did not find such an option, but may be I just missed it.
Ario
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 12:53:45 PM »
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No, not with LR (unlike Bridge which creates sidecars if DNGs are read only) and I really don't think this is likely to change. In any case, the xmp files do not contain all your Lightroom work on those files (eg virtual copies are only in the caalogue).
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ario
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2012, 01:06:40 PM »
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Thanks, so in order to avoid unnecessary backups of the entire DNG file for any change made in LR is better to live the  metadata inside the catalog.
Ario
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Peter_DL
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2012, 11:01:49 AM »
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Correct...it can't because a .xmp file is strict text only...
... "why would you want to do that?"

It is among several points, about what to take care, when moving to a new computer.
Customized Dng profiles will not travel over automatically with Raw+.xmp
Not a big issue, just something to be aware.

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solardarkroom.com
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2012, 01:35:13 PM »
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John’s point is quite valid and about the only disadvantage I see to a DNG workflow (although IMHO not a big one).

Suppose you have a DNG that contains all this useful data. You simply make a tiny update like altering some metadata. The entire DNG has to be backed up. It takes a lot longer than updating a small XMP sidecar file. I don’t think there is any way around this. You have a single container of a document and if something changes and you want to back it up, you back up the whole thing.


Some may be interested to know there are block-level backup software solutions that work extremely well for things like DNG files. This type of software keeps track of each data-block of a given file and updates only the bytes that have been altered. If I add some IPTC fields to a DNG it will take a snapshot of the file as it currently exists in backup and add a new delta-value snapshot for the few data-blocks that changed. I use this kind of software for both off-site internet backups as well as a bare drive I keep in town at another site. I once updated some global IPTC values on about ten thousand DNGs to the internet storage. The software indicated my upload speed was hundreds of times faster than I know my connection is...As it turns out it calculates throughput based on file size but since it was only updating the tiniest sliver of data, all ten thousand or so DNGs were backed up online in a few hours. It's effectively the same as just backing up the sidecar xmp files.

I've left out the brand names to avoid the appearance of selling something...but this technology is out there if you want. I've been very pleased with it for a couple years now. And remember, a single backup is no backup at all. I have several copies in 4 cities...occupational hazard. Good Luck!

David

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