The Cat Amongst the Pigeons... Is this the new Leica M10 Sensor?

[Josh-H]

I am not normally a rumours kind of guy; since most of them require copious amounts of salt. However, in this instance I thought this may be of interest and possibly have some substance.

I had a chat last night to a very good friend of mine in Melbourne who owns and runs a large print house (which shall remain nameless for now to protect the guilty). He astutely pointed out to me a new sensor Dalsa have placed on their website for all to see HERE.

What application can this sensor have? Clearly its not for Canon or Nikon, or even Sony for that matter. Its a CCD sensor for a start.

Looking closely at the specifications it becomes obvious to both of us that this can probably only be a sensor for the Leica M10?

Or, are we drawing to long a bow?

Edit - I forgot to point out: This is what gives it away Microlenses with wide angular response

[Wayne Fox]

This is what gives it away Microlenses with wide angular response

Indeed that would seem to point to Leica. Hopefully it's the beginning of what they are working on for MF as well. 

Unless Leica gets some kind of live view focusing however, I'm not interested ... I assume they know that.  A 24mp FF Leica with some type of really good Live View focusing (like focus peaking ) might pull me back in.  I'm excited about the NEX7 I have on order, but I would prefer to stay FF if I could.

[BJL]

Maybe, bit the evidence is not very strong for the idea of Leica moving to a different sensor source with quite different electrsported iron,ent needed.

- Being a CCD is no surprise: all of Dalsa's high quality sensors are.

- Having those micro lenses is also no surprise: Dalsa has developed microlenses with good angular response, so it makes no sense not using microlenses except on a sensor designed for use with lenses that deliver light at extreme off-perpendicular angles.

- So the key feature is the 36x24mm format. But many special purpocam photographic devices for scientific and manufacturing tasks use that format for the simple reason they they can then be used with a huge array of good quality lenses. Nikon lenses with aperture rings in particular, since that allows simple mechanical couplings. Dalsa and Kodak have made a variety of 36x24mm sensors not used in any DSLR.

[Bernard ODonovan]

FTF6040C 24 MP Color CCD:
''Specifically designed for professional digital still applications''

Is it possible Dalsa mean for photography as opposed to machine operation. I am sure both could apply, but just has the ring of made for a 135 sized DSLR or 135 sized Mirrorless to it

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

Having a look at the right hand column of the linked Dalsa website I read:

"Variable electronic shuttering"

Does this mean a camera built with this sensor might not need a classical shutter any longer ?

[BJL]

FTF6040C 24 MP Color CCD:
''Specifically designed for professional digital still applications''

Maybe, but I am still that this is marketing spin rather than a "designed for Leica" product, for several reasons:

1. The data sheet is probably more accurate in its description as being "designed for professional digital photography, scientific and industrial applications." That sounds like Teledyne Dalsa is offering it to camera makers inter alia, but not with a specific customer like Leica behind the product's creation.

2. Leica has always used Kodak sensors, so it would be a significant effort to adapt its M9 design to this quite different sensor.

3. The sensor has no better specs that Kodak Truesense sensors of the same pixel size, and worse in respect of full well capacity and linear dynamic range, and thus in low ISO performance; why would Leica accept the cost of changing horses for no clear IQ gain?

3. Leica has mostly or entirely used custom sensors, not offered to competitors, and certainly not announced before the Leics product.

4. Teledyne Dalsa makes some rather exaggerated claims of this sort for an older brother of this sensor, the FTF3020C, which it describes with "still widely used in professional digital studio photography" and "its remarkable image quality made it the de facto standard for digital still photography". Recognise that sensor? It is the 6MP 36x24mm sensor used in the one Contax digital SLR attempt, which doomed that camera through its poor IQ (noise in particular). And this new one has slightly worse per pixel DR, which the data sheet describes quite honestly as "a linear dynamic range of over 11 true bits" (69.5dB, with full DR of 71dB if one tolerates some nonlinearity at the high end.) Frankly, this is very far from competitive against alternatives like Sony CMOS sensors, which Leica has already deigned to use in a lower level product, the $2000 X1.

[Bernard ODonovan]

Maybe, but I am still that this is marketing spin rather than a "designed for Leica" product, for several reasons:

Hence, I said:

''Is it possible Dalsa mean for photography as opposed to machine operation. I am sure both could apply, but just has the ring of made for a 135 sized DSLR or 135 sized Mirrorless to it''

I never saw it as made for Leica and the additional points you make are very good at proving that.

Many thanks 

[BJL]

Bernard,
Yes, my comments about Leica were directs to the OP, not your comment; sorry for the confusion.

But this sensor is useless for "mirrorless", except in the Leica M9 kind of mirrorless, with only a non-TTL optical viewfinder. That's because this Full Frame CCD ("full frame" being a type of sensor technology, not a size) cannot do video out for a video viewfinder or AF. At best it can do some slow approximation of video, but compare that to the state of the art in contrast detect AF, which just this week moving up from 120fps to 240fps sensor read-out.

[Bernard ODonovan]

Bernard,
Yes, my comments about Leica were directs to the OP, not your comment; sorry for the confusion.

But this sensor is useless for "mirrorless", except in the Leica M9 kind of mirrorless, with only a non-TTL optical viewfinder. That's because this Full Frame CCD ("full frame" being a type of sensor technology, not a size) cannot do video out for a video viewfinder or AF. At best it can do some slow approximation of video, but compare that to the state of the art in contrast detect AF, which just this week moving up from 120fps to 240fps sensor read-out.

Another excellent point. ''Mirrorless'' is a very lazy term. It does not say if the lens is interchangeable (not an issue in this debate) nor does it identify if the sensor is used for focus. The only sense I did make was to say 135 sized which currently is only rangefinder type until the rumored NEX 9 that is... 

[Bernard ODonovan]

It begs the question who is DALSA making it for... Kodak will still be making sensors under a different name. Could this be first sight of a new Full Frame RangeFinder... An IKON perhaps  

[BJL]

It begs the question who is DALSA making it for... Kodak will still be making sensors under a different name. Could this be first sight of a new Full Frame RangeFinder... An IKON perhaps  

They are making it for the same customers as buy most of Dalsa's (and Kodak's) full frame type CCDs, including previous 36x24mm ones like the FTF3020. That is, special purpose cameras for scientific, medical, industrial and military usage, with the 36x24mm formst ones tgypically used with manual focus Nikon F-mount, because those lemses allow simple, fully mechanical operation.

Teledyne Dalsa lists half a dozen application areas at this site:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/applications/industrial.aspx
Note that under the heading "professional photography", it only list four of its many sensors: all larger than 36x24mm, used in DMF backs:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/applications/DSC.aspx
(this excludes the latest 80MP one, apparently still  only available under some restrictions of exclusivity.)

[Bernard ODonovan]

They are making it for the same customers as buy most of Dalsa's (and Kodak's) full frame type CCDs, including previous 36x24mm ones like the FTF3020. That is, special purpose cameras for scientific, medical, industrial and military usage, with the 36x24mm formst ones tgypically used with manual focus Nikon F-mount, because those lemses allow simple, fully mechanical operation.

Teledyne Dalsa lists half a dozen application areas at this site:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/applications/industrial.aspx
Note that under the heading "professional photography", it only list four of its many sensors: all larger than 36x24mm, used in DMF backs:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/applications/DSC.aspx
(this excludes the latest 80MP one, apparently still  only available under some restrictions of exclusivity.)

Your dashing the (possibly non existent) hopes of IKON lovers...  

[BJL]

Congratulations Josh-H,
    your thread got picked up at one of the rumor sites
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-dalsa-2-megapixel-sensor-for-the-leica-m10/

And they have a rumor to throw back at us, about a Leica live view system (no point calling it mirror-less since the M9 is already that!)
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-r-solution-is-nothing-elses-than-a-mirrorless-camera/

Now, if Leica does indeed produce a mirror-less EVF camera compatible with its R and M lenses, and thus using a live capable sensor, it seems probably that Leica would use a 36x24mm format Sony CMOS sensor. If so, I would guess on that being used in the next digital M body, rather than a 20th century technology CCD from Teledyne Dalsa or Truesense Imaging (spun off from Kodak). Ot at least, that seems the best way forward for Leica. Maybe Leica could then mimic its clip-on accessory viewfinders for ultra-wide angle lenses, by supporting a clip-on accessory EVF on future M bodies? Too heretical?

[KLaban]

Too heretical?

I hope not.

If the M10 has the any means to check critical focus and accurate framing I'll be in the queue.

[David Watson]

I hope not.

If the M10 has the any means to check critical focus and accurate framing I'll be in the queue.

Keith I share your angst about the M9.

But, when I pick up a camera just in case every morning, it is still the M9.  Having said that I no longer have a Leica M lens longer than 50mm and I don't use it for close work but, again, I just love using such a nice piece of machinery that produces such exquisitely sharp images.

[KLaban]

Keith I share your angst about the M9.

But, when I pick up a camera just in case every morning, it is still the M9.  Having said that I no longer have a Leica M lens longer than 50mm and I don't use it for close work but, again, I just love using such a nice piece of machinery that produces such exquisitely sharp images.

David, I literally had an M9 in my online shopping basket the other day but just couldn't click to buy.

I sincerely hope the M10 delivers.

Thanks again for your help.

[DeeJay]

I really don't have a need to upgrade my M9. It's close to perfect for me.

[Josh-H]

Congratulations Josh-H,
    your thread got picked up at one of the rumor sites
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-dalsa-2-megapixel-sensor-for-the-leica-m10/

I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it...

You can't prove anything 

Seriously, Im quite surprised that they ran it (or even found the post here for that matter). As I said, it just came about because an astute friend pointed it out to me and I thought he was onto something.

[Josh-H]

I thought this might just go away but I heard a very interesting twist today on this Dalsa Sensor from a very good source that turns the original theory on its head.

The theory goes: The reason Dalsa have advertised that particular chip on their website is because Leica have actually rejected it as the new M10 sensor. Dalsa have no customer for this chip and Leica are for all intent and purpose done with Dalsa for the M series.

Instead Leica are partnering with Sony and using their CMOS chip (likely the 36MPX chip), and its coming with Live View in the M10. Remember; you read it here first. (if he is right - and I have good cause to believe he is   )

[KLaban]

Instead Leica are partnering with Sony and using their CMOS chip (likely the 36MPX chip), and its coming with Live View in the M10.[/i] Remember; you read it here first. (if he is right  )

Pretty please...