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Author Topic: Having trouble profile 8300 with Wasatch and i1P / PM5  (Read 5046 times)
aaronchan
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« on: February 16, 2012, 02:29:52 AM »
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Dear all,

I used to print with wasatch with my old Z6100
since that old printer has been kicked out
I now using the 8300, 9100 and Z3200 with RGB workflow and their driver.
But I want to also learn how to profile such a 7 channel printer with Wasatch.
I couldn't find any document about this program in this specific topic.
My tech support has been expired and they won't even transfer my phone call to any tech person.
Is here anyone who knows how to profile this in a correct way?

My major problem seems like is the ink limitation.
I've done this in Wasatch or the i1P
but the target still comes out very wet.
What would be the right way to determine the ink limit while the max ink goes up to 700%?

Thanks
Aaron
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 07:08:23 AM »
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Aaron,

Typical Wasatch Incorporated experience I can assure you. What still should be possible is a download of the RIP media configurations for that printer from Wasatch which could give some guide on the ink limit settings, check related printer media configurations there too 6300 etc and the 6100 etc.

I stopped creating profiles for the Z3100-Z3100 in the Wasatch SoftRip and abandoned the RIP shortly after that. My experience was that Wasatch itself could not create proper profiles for that 12 ink printer either so I stopped wasting my time.

Related discussion here, see the last messages:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=62276.20


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:11:04 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
aaronchan
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 07:39:44 AM »
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Aaron,

Typical Wasatch Incorporated experience I can assure you. What still should be possible is a download of the RIP media configurations for that printer from Wasatch which could give some guide on the ink limit settings, check related printer media configurations there too 6300 etc and the 6100 etc.

I stopped creating profiles for the Z3100-Z3100 in the Wasatch SoftRip and abandoned the RIP shortly after that. My experience was that Wasatch itself could not create proper profiles for that 12 ink printer either so I stopped wasting my time.

Related discussion here, see the last messages:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=62276.20


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Dear Ernst,

I've try downloaded some printing environment from and also checked their setting plus using ColorThink Pro to analysed their ICC profile.
But you are right. I'm thinking is Wasatch not a RIP that is good in profiling a CMYK+N printer or not. I had been trying to profile it with Z3200 and iPF8300 for quite a while and still haven't had a "normal" result, either the ink it way too much or the profile looks extremely un-normal with the Wasatch linerization file. I used to use Colorburst when I was still using the Epson printers, and I had zero problem before with all kinds of material.

Maybe it's time for me to get another RIP and try to work with these 7 channels printers.

Aaron
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LenR
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 10:10:20 AM »
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Hi Aaron,
When you installed Wasatch there was a folder called PS Files.
In that there may be a PS file called something like "General test....7color", do you have it it"
Do you have software to profile 7 colors?
Wasatch is a "Big Boy" (no hand holding without big bucks) rip so I suggest the path of least resistance and use what came with your printer.
Hp spent bazillions of peso on their calibrations and in my 20 years of printing they look like some of the best I've seen.
Cheers
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LenR
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 04:00:06 PM »
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Hi Aaron,
Here's a screen grab of a 4c version of the file I mentioned above.  It's a really powerful tool when configuring a printer.
Cheers

PS: I also have a 3200 and I don't use Wasatch to run it FWIW.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 10:16:08 AM »
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Dear Ernst,

I've try downloaded some printing environment from and also checked their setting plus using ColorThink Pro to analysed their ICC profile.
But you are right. I'm thinking is Wasatch not a RIP that is good in profiling a CMYK+N printer or not. I had been trying to profile it with Z3200 and iPF8300 for quite a while and still haven't had a "normal" result, either the ink it way too much or the profile looks extremely un-normal with the Wasatch linerization file. I used to use Colorburst when I was still using the Epson printers, and I had zero problem before with all kinds of material.

Maybe it's time for me to get another RIP and try to work with these 7 channels printers.

Aaron

Aaron

Can you tell me why you want to create 7 color profiles? For what result?

I personal think your going to be fighting a losing battle. Unless there is some specific reason you want to control individual ink channels your never going to get results like you get sending RGB to the printer using the printer driver or a RIP that supports sending RGB to the printer.

There is something magic in the black box of the printer, and if anyone has achieved good results with a RIP controlling the ink channels sending CMYK+N channels to the printer I would like to here it. I have come fairly close with a Fiery FX RIP using the Fiery Color Manager but it is still not even close in quality of the driver or the ColorGate RIPs RGB mode. Tried a trial version of ONYX once on my iPF9000 but I can't recall what mode the RIP was sending in, but I seem to remember there were ink limit settings, but the color quality was ok if I remember correctly. I have used way too many RIPs in the past that I can hardly remember the specifics of each of them.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 10:25:36 AM by Doyle Yoder » Logged
MonsterBaby
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »
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hi aaron.. if just been spening my days (and nights  Grin) on profiling a Z3200...

if you have any more precise questions hit me up ;-)

first.. the RGB driver is awesome! no doubt.. the best screening..!! and good gamut..

if you want proofing you need a rip.. in my opnion EFI does a great job because of the dynamic wedge..!
im still having problems to get a perfect yellow tho.

for fineart prints i wouldnt use it as the color engine is limited to the it8 chart and efi is not really building 7 channels but using a device link profile.

wasatch i found pretty easy but rudimental.. and you need a very!!! strong external color engine to build the profile.. more then 3000 patches i would suggest.

onyx is so far the best i know.. and i got some slightly better results in shadow detail and gamut then with the RGB driver..

if its worth the effort??.. probably not
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TylerB
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 02:12:18 PM »
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This sounds like a specific Wastach problem, and I'm afraid I don't know the RIP. While I agree the vast majority are best off using the OEM drivers, there are some achieving wonderful results with a RIP and Nchannel. I have to say you are on your own making it work though, for example I've been wrestling with Nchannel in i1PRofiler since it was introduced, with some very specific issues, and literally no one including Xrite has anything to say about it.
I am extremely happy with StudioPRint v14, GPX profiler, and i1Profiler, given a lot of setup experience, with my 9900. Others are quietly out there doing great things as well. While the RGB drivers with current printers are indeed balck boxes, and in fact extremely good, I would not say they are magic that can't touched...
But, if you have no experience even with in RIP CMYK, and that profiling, then diving into n channel will hurt you.
Tyler
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 03:05:21 AM »
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Tyler,

For color printing, can you control the partitioning of the K,LK,LLK inks with your RIP and the profile creator?
The Wasatch SoftRip does not give that control, not in color or B&W.
I asked WasatchInc 5-6 years back to make control of B&W partitioning possible but at that time they were not interested. Ergosoft had it already at that time.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
 
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 03:59:29 AM »
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you can pretty well with onyx.. within the lin you have controll over the light inks.
and when profile building you have advanced black generation controll.. like UCR for the blacks and a different GCR for the saturated colors f.e.

the onyx color engine is def well ahead.. you will be able to get great color but you still dont have the smoothest dithering like you have with cantone.
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aaronchan
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »
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Hi Aaron,
Here's a screen grab of a 4c version of the file I mentioned above.  It's a really powerful tool when configuring a printer.
Cheers

PS: I also have a 3200 and I don't use Wasatch to run it FWIW.


I've done this already. I know the first procedure in lin, but when it comes to ink limit, the right hand side ink limit chart doesn't really help.
It represents 0 - 400% but I since I'm working with a 7 channel printer, which mean my total limit will go up to 700%
So, this is what I'm having trouble right now.

Aaron

Can you tell me why you want to create 7 color profiles? For what result?

I personal think your going to be fighting a losing battle. Unless there is some specific reason you want to control individual ink channels your never going to get results like you get sending RGB to the printer using the printer driver or a RIP that supports sending RGB to the printer.

There is something magic in the black box of the printer, and if anyone has achieved good results with a RIP controlling the ink channels sending CMYK+N channels to the printer I would like to here it. I have come fairly close with a Fiery FX RIP using the Fiery Color Manager but it is still not even close in quality of the driver or the ColorGate RIPs RGB mode. Tried a trial version of ONYX once on my iPF9000 but I can't recall what mode the RIP was sending in, but I seem to remember there were ink limit settings, but the color quality was ok if I remember correctly. I have used way too many RIPs in the past that I can hardly remember the specifics of each of them.


This is a study for me to learn how to make a "good" printing environment with a RIP and a n channel printer.
It's more like a study for me.

hi aaron.. if just been spening my days (and nights  Grin) on profiling a Z3200...

if you have any more precise questions hit me up ;-)

first.. the RGB driver is awesome! no doubt.. the best screening..!! and good gamut..

if you want proofing you need a rip.. in my opnion EFI does a great job because of the dynamic wedge..!
im still having problems to get a perfect yellow tho.

for fineart prints i wouldnt use it as the color engine is limited to the it8 chart and efi is not really building 7 channels but using a device link profile.

wasatch i found pretty easy but rudimental.. and you need a very!!! strong external color engine to build the profile.. more then 3000 patches i would suggest.

onyx is so far the best i know.. and i got some slightly better results in shadow detail and gamut then with the RGB driver..

if its worth the effort??.. probably not

Thanks for your input.
I know the RGB driver is awsome and I use Qimage and Canon/HP/Epson driver to run them for my clients.
I would love to try OnyX, I'm actually trying to contact the dealer from my location to see if I can get a 30 days trail.
I've also use Ergosoft Studio Print which is fantastic with their Color GPS, the only thing is you have to better get a iSis instead of an i1pro because they labeled each color patch which will cost you a lot of paper to print out a thousand patches.

 
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 09:54:33 AM »
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oh yeeaah. studying is great ;-)

this kind of studying is expensive tho.. you need a lot of ink.. and paper.. and you are pretty much left alone with trial and error..

i just went through all those stages.. Huh

it says in the wasatch tutorial i mentioned.. if 400% is not enough for hifi profiling use a custom chart.. which you could.

i cannot believe tho that you will find a paper that can hold more then 400% of ink??... what is your experience with that?

the problem about all the n color profiling is... you need a software that is capable of doing so!!..

wasatch doesnt even try.. !

so even if you are able to get a great lin.. you need a profiling tool. which are you using??
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TylerB
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 11:55:10 AM »
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Tyler,

For color printing, can you control the partitioning of the K,LK,LLK inks with your RIP and the profile creator? ...

Yes, the controls are extensive, so much so that anyone coming in new will be overwhelmed, but I'm now used to them after several years. With 2880 environments and others that use one dot size, basically the control is where each lighter K is limited. With settings making variable dot available, each dot size can be selected, and it's percentage of use set, for each and every K, as well as the overall limit of that K in the mix. The partitioning curves are not user controllable (perhaps that is what you meant) but built in. Unless you've made very unwise choices with the previous settings, it will always linearize so I've rarely felt the need for my own partitioning schemes.
The profilers, of course, simply build profiles for those environments, and other than the usual K gen controls, will treat the partitioned K provided by the environment as one channel, so no partitioning at that point.
Hope that makes sense.
Tyler
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TylerB
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 12:37:44 PM »
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regarding limiting and CMYK and higher channel profile building... the limiting tests tend to be over simplified for the software I am familiar with. The test files tend to dump a lot of high percentage ink combinations in that will NEVER happen in and RGB to CMYK(+) conversion, so then to direct one to over limit.
Even the chart builds for profiling put ink combinations together that may bleed, but again because of GCR and other reasons will never wind up in a print. What RGB color will ever convert to 100% C + 100% Y + 100% M, or 100% of any 3 colors for that matter?. With too much TI limiting, particularly in profile chart builds, and then profile builds, you will get the hollow shadows so many experience.
So.. I often have charts that have patch bleed (these patches are ink builds that will never be hit in real life) and if the device can read them, it doesn't matter (up to a point, of course). Then, set your TI in th profile build.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 02:15:26 AM »
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With 2880 environments and others that use one dot size, basically the control is where each lighter K is limited. With settings making variable dot available, each dot size can be selected, and it's percentage of use set, for each and every K, as well as the overall limit of that K in the mix. The partitioning curves are not user controllable (perhaps that is what you meant) but built in. Unless you've made very unwise choices with the previous settings, it will always linearize so I've rarely felt the need for my own partitioning schemes.
The profilers, of course, simply build profiles for those environments, and other than the usual K gen controls, will treat the partitioned K provided by the environment as one channel, so no partitioning at that point.
Hope that makes sense.
Tyler

Tyler,

Yes, so far it makes sense to me.
Can you stretch the black generation from 0-100% with for example PK, LK, LLK optimally set in the RIP ?
No color inks at the neutral spine. It may not deliver the best print but does the profile generator allow it?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 06:26:42 AM »
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of course not ernst.. thats always the point that you emphasize.. and you are absolutely right!!

thats why i am saying the weekest part is the profile making tool!..

as i see now.. the threadstarter uses pm5... from my point this software is too limited for 7color profiles.!

i just tried to create one for EFI using 3800 patches.. printed them numerous times with different settings.

the gamut was always smaller in some parts then the cantone one!..

and just was ernst says.. the black generation controll is not good enought!

even if you say start 0 and max.. it will start at 20 and have cmy only from 0-20.. then will always use stronger cmy no matter what choice you make!

you have no additional controll over the RGB colors.. which you need. its rediculous to introduce RGB in some 30% colorpatches.. or even in the gray axis!!..

with monaco you have more controll over those.. but the testchart monaco offers for 7c is too small with 2400 patches to get a brilliant profile with grayaxis.. i tried that with wasatch

the best as i mentioned above is onyx and the built in colorengine. they have a special 3400 patch set for CMYK+RGB and a better black gen possibility that works very well introducing cmys after 50% of K
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TylerB
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 02:56:24 PM »
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Both Ergosoft GPS and i1Profiler allow user settings of 0 - 100%. THey both have a shallow curve to them so there is always some color ink included. However i1Profiler has an additional setting for max gcr that removes all but the most minimal color ink to create a neutral axis, and a straight line K. No profiler will create an axis with no color ink because there is little to no probability any paper and K ink combination is dead neutral from paper white to dmax K. It's job is always to find neutral. So Max GCR with an Epson generally has at least C and M since the K inks are warm.
When the HP guy at PMA one year was touting only K ink up the neutral axis we pointed this out to him, he looked like someone fed him sour milk and moved on. Equal RGB numbers to the driver may result in K only, but what for? I'd bet a good RGB profile for that printer will reveal the neutral axis from a file no longer are equal RGB numbers...
Bottom line, though you or I may find some usefullness with that capability once in a while, a profiler won't. I can get what I want in the channels by placing info into them directly, but profile conversions are not the way to get there...
again, hope I'm making sense.
Tyler

 
Tyler,

Yes, so far it makes sense to me.
Can you stretch the black generation from 0-100% with for example PK, LK, LLK optimally set in the RIP ?
No color inks at the neutral spine. It may not deliver the best print but does the profile generator allow it?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm


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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 03:38:48 AM »
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Both Ergosoft GPS and i1Profiler allow user settings of 0 - 100%. THey both have a shallow curve to them so there is always some color ink included. However i1Profiler has an additional setting for max gcr that removes all but the most minimal color ink to create a neutral axis, and a straight line K. No profiler will create an axis with no color ink because there is little to no probability any paper and K ink combination is dead neutral from paper white to dmax K. It's job is always to find neutral. So Max GCR with an Epson generally has at least C and M since the K inks are warm.
When the HP guy at PMA one year was touting only K ink up the neutral axis we pointed this out to him, he looked like someone fed him sour milk and moved on. Equal RGB numbers to the driver may result in K only, but what for? I'd bet a good RGB profile for that printer will reveal the neutral axis from a file no longer are equal RGB numbers...
Bottom line, though you or I may find some usefullness with that capability once in a while, a profiler won't. I can get what I want in the channels by placing info into them directly, but profile conversions are not the way to get there...
again, hope I'm making sense.
Tyler


The "may not deliver the best print" had the facts you referred to in mind. To sketch the extremes: on a neutral paper with the HP Vivera neutral Ks there is no color at the neutral axis. I am aware that it is more an exception than the rule. In contrast with that is a RIP + profiler that is not using the LLK down to 0%, uses LLK and LK at a minimum, has not only CMY dots but also RGB dots at the neutral axis. Same printer model. So I was curious what your tools allowed.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm


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TylerB
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2012, 12:57:32 PM »
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Ernst, between you and I, knowing each other on these forums since before most of these people were in diapers, I should stop trying to make sense in these places...
Yes I know, raw RGB equal value data going to the driver for those HPs uses K inks only. My point is since it's never going to be neutral a good profile will convert those image R=G=B values over a bit to make neutral in the print. There still may be R=G=B values going to the driver, but they will be hues in the file that more closely matched that K ink + paper hue.
How much LLK, LK, and K are used in the black channel with Ergosoft are controllable, some experience years back with Colorburst.. looked like LK use could be user set but I don't know it that is still the case. LLK can easily be used up to 0% with both profilers I use. Monaco was a bit more difficult to do that with, the curve tool was clunky, but you could get very close. If I had an HP here to run some test environments on, I could tell you more about ink content up the neutral axis with the RIP. I can tell you that with both an Epson 9900 and a Canon 6300, and controls set for as much GCR as possible from 0 to 100%, Ergosoft uses small amounts of CMY as needed and of course there is a rich black build. Secondary colors like O, G, R, G, B are non-existant up the axis and only kick in as needed to extend gamut. i1Profiler's controls for secondary ink use are extensive but don't work as well as they should, and it's been indicated to me no one cares much...
At any rate, our focus with regard to these issues is very different from that of those who design our tools unfortunately. QTR remains a unique and powerful exception, if only there were HP and Canon support. True B&W looks great, but only for Canon...
The option for Ergosoft niche and finessed B&W setups with OEM inks.. and what may interest you more... perfectly set up ink channels.. particularly K with light ink use perfected for B&W, each channel perfectly linearized.. then dropping image data into apropriate channels in the file (including color channels if you want to tone) results in beautiful work... but much if the labor is done in photoshop. I've even set it up using some of the color channels as spot channels instead of colors... this is pretty off the radar printmaking stuff... color management is involved as well, but in a less conventional manner...
Tyler



The "may not deliver the best print" had the facts you referred to in mind. To sketch the extremes: on a neutral paper with the HP Vivera neutral Ks there is no color at the neutral axis. I am aware that it is more an exception than the rule. In contrast with that is a RIP + profiler that is not using the LLK down to 0%, uses LLK and LK at a minimum, has not only CMY dots but also RGB dots at the neutral axis. Same printer model. So I was curious what your tools allowed.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm



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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 06:07:57 AM »
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Tyler,

Thank you, a good summary. Several years ago I made the wrong choice between Wasatch and Ergosoft, though I had both in view. For my own excuse; it was before Studio became available and before N-color printers became that wide spread. I have lost confidence in the Wasatch SoftRip some years back and wrote about that.  There is little chance I will buy another RIP while it could make some plans possible that are hard to achieve with an application like Qiamge and the OEM drivers. You made a good decision without doubt.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware now:
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/six-canvas-wrap-actions.htm


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