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Author Topic: Looking for 17 x 25" Baryta papers similar to EEF  (Read 4510 times)
AFairley
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« on: February 23, 2012, 11:23:37 AM »
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Can anyone recommend a Baryta paper in 17x25 or 17x26" sheets that's similar to Epson Exhibition Fiber?  (I do not want to cut sheets out of a roll myself.)  The only ones I'm aware of are the Harmon Gloss Baryta and the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta Fb, Bright White -- how do they compare to EEF in surface and paper color?

Also, is the packaging of these papers such that shipped packages are prone to crushed corners?  Any suppliers you recommend for overboxing the paper well?

Thanks
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Robcat
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 08:53:59 AM »
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I've looked around and have not found any other than the Harman/Hahnemuhle Barytas that come in 17 x 25. I have used several boxes of these and have not had an issue with crushed corners or other damage. The surface of the Harman/Hahnemuhle has noticeably more gloss than EEF---I prefer this look but that is solely a matter of your taste and the subjects you shoot.
I agree that cutting roll paper is suboptimal. With the Harman, 24" rolls are a wrestling match reminiscent (at least if you're old enough  Smiley) of old Laurel and Hardy movies in which they struggle unsuccessfully to put up wallpaper without it curling back up into a roll.
Don't know quite what you mean by "overboxing"
Rob P
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howardm
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 09:30:40 AM »
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I've had very good luck w/ ShadesOfPaper's shipping and overboxing.  No crushing at all on boxes
of Canson in 17x22.

I think it was the Canson box inside a corr. box and then a shipping overbox w/ padding.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 10:07:15 AM »
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EEF - Innova IFA49 = Moab Colorado,

Like with the EEF you might get the same POOR longevity. OBAs burning out, check Aardenburg


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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AFairley
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 10:23:59 AM »
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I've looked around and have not found any other than the Harman/Hahnemuhle Barytas that come in 17 x 25. I have used several boxes of these and have not had an issue with crushed corners or other damage. The surface of the Harman/Hahnemuhle has noticeably more gloss than EEF---I prefer this look but that is solely a matter of your taste and the subjects you shoot.
I agree that cutting roll paper is suboptimal. With the Harman, 24" rolls are a wrestling match reminiscent (at least if you're old enough  Smiley) of old Laurel and Hardy movies in which they struggle unsuccessfully to put up wallpaper without it curling back up into a roll.
Don't know quite what you mean by "overboxing"
Rob P

Thanks, Rob.  Between the two, which would you say has less gloss?  Also, how do they compare in terms of paper curl (the cut sheets, not rolls).

Thanks again.
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hjsesq
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 11:16:46 AM »
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For the packing as well as price I recommend Shades of Paper as well.  And I am sure that if you call them directly and tell of your concerns regarding the packing, they will be happy to address them.
Harris
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Harris J Sklar
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2012, 11:39:00 AM »
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The Harman is the only 17 x 25 I know of and I have used it. Beautiful paper to print on though I had problems with wrinkling after being framed. I have bought rolls of paper and then cut to size -everything from 26" to 36" long (I use Hahnemuhle). When you cut rolls there is a significant amount of curl and you need to do something to flatten the paper before printing. Some use a "de-curler" but I place mine under heavy weight and leave it for a week. Works ok, but still a pain and you need to plan ahead as to how soon you will need to print in that size.
BTW, my last order of 17 x 22 Hahn came from Atlex double boxed so no problem with corners getting crushed. And I might say I've never had a damaged box from them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:41:14 AM by JohnBrew » Logged

AFairley
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 04:50:07 PM »
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Thanks all.  I have decided that I will buy a box of EFF 24x30 and cut it down to 17x25 for the infrequent times want to print a 2:3 image (scans of old chromes).  I'm familiar with and like the paper, it's cost effective given that I can use the overage for the smaller proof prints which I always do, and I will have full sheets for the occasions I want to print large on a friend's 24" printer.
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narikin
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 09:30:59 AM »
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Totally your choice, but just know it has an appallingly short display life before yellowing.
See Ernst's comments above for further info.
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Sharon Van Lieu
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2012, 05:18:00 PM »
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If Epson would release a non-oba version of EEF, I would buy it forever. I really like the surface and weight of it.  Ilford GFS has a more plastic feel and look in comparison. I like the Harman Glossy FB AI also.

Sharon
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 05:27:24 PM by Sharon Van Lieu » Logged

AFairley
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 09:06:34 AM »
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Totally your choice, but just know it has an appallingly short display life before yellowing.
See Ernst's comments above for further info.


Can you quantify and give sources? 

Thanks.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 10:00:09 AM »
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Can you quantify and give sources? 

Thanks.
Sure, just go to the Aardenburg site HERE and register.  You can search for all the papers (238 at this count) and printer ink.  this is one of the best sites for light fast testing.  You can also use Ernst Dinkla's great resource HERE to see the spectral property of papers; this will tell you which ones are high in OBA content.  Exhibition fiber has one of the higher OBA contents and over time the flourescent dyes in the coating will lose their ability to fluoresce causing a yellowing of the paper (it isn't that the paper is turning yellow that the fluorescence gives it a bright white cast; such compounds are frequently used in the manufacture of 'cheap' paper (Xerox paper being a prime example) to give it a bright white surface).

Alan
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Rand47
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 10:40:17 AM »
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I think it might be worth restating that using papers w/ OBAs that will then be framed under glass is an exercise in futility.  The OBAs depend upon Uv to make them fluoresce, which of course is filtered by glass.  So you end up with the worst of both worlds, as I understand it.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 11:49:57 AM »
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I think it might be worth restating that using papers w/ OBAs that will then be framed under glass is an exercise in futility.  The OBAs depend upon Uv to make them fluoresce, which of course is filtered by glass.  So you end up with the worst of both worlds, as I understand it.
Unless the glass is treated with a protectant, enough UVA radiation will get through to cause the OBAs to fluoresce.  If you frame with normal acrylic glazing the paper will perform as advertised but will not if you frame with UV-protecting acrylic.
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AFairley
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 01:00:02 PM »
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Unless the glass is treated with a protectant, enough UVA radiation will get through to cause the OBAs to fluoresce.  If you frame with normal acrylic glazing the paper will perform as advertised but will not if you frame with UV-protecting acrylic.

One of these days I will get around to posting images of a test I did covering strips of EEF, Canson Rag Photographique, and Epson Hot Press Natural (the latter of which are OBA-free and samples were kindly sent me by Alan Goldhammer and John Ferriola) with strips of Tru-Vue Museum Glass (98% UV blocking), Tru-Vue Anti-Reflective (40% UV blocking) and acrylic (presumably no UV blocking ) strips and looking at them in the sun and under light overcast skies.  I was hard put to see any decrease in "brightness" of the EEF image from the UV blocking that was not the result of the color casts of the glass itself, comparing the effects of the glazing on the EEF with the non-OBA papers.  I am going to print an image on all three papers and do the test that way as well.  (It's sort of a moot issue for me because I frame behind Anti-Reflective, which is a (relatively) non-blocking glass.)  BTW, Museum Glass has a Brown/Orange cast; the A-R has a Green cast (similar to most glass).  I'll see if I can dig up the image from the first test tonight -- though the digital file really is not subtle enough to show what I saw well.
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MHMG
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 04:28:10 PM »
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I was hard put to see any decrease in "brightness" of the EEF image from the UV blocking that was not the result of the color casts of the glass itself, comparing the effects of the glazing on the EEF with the non-OBA papers. 

Hmmm...what was your illumination source? With incandescent, perhaps little change. However, with a Solux lamp (approx 6% UVA/ViS ratio) or natural daylight through a window (about 16-20%UVA/VIS ratio), the effects of UV Blocking glazing on media color (not necessarily brightness) are quite pronounced. I gave a similar demonstration to some TruVue marketing reps here in my studio recently. They saw the unwanted effects of UV blocking glazing on high OBA content media whitepoint color immediately. They found my little demo very informative since their general framing advice to their customers has largely been "UV Blocking is always better" framing practice.

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AFairley
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 07:42:50 PM »
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Hmmm...what was your illumination source? With incandescent, perhaps little change. However, with a Solux lamp (approx 6% UVA/ViS ratio) or natural daylight through a window (about 16-20%UVA/VIS ratio), the effects of UV Blocking glazing on media color (not necessarily brightness) are quite pronounced. I gave a similar demonstration to some TruVue marketing reps here in my studio recently. They saw the unwanted effects of UV blocking glazing on high OBA content media whitepoint color immediately. They found my little demo very informative since their general framing advice to their customers has largely been "UV Blocking is always better" framing practice.

Very interesting, thanks for posting.

As I said in my post, I looked at the effects both under direct sun and under light overcast.  I will have to try with my Solux lights as well.  

However, reading your post, what comes to mind is whether the effect on whitepoint (which I do not doubt you observed, because I saw the same thing) is the result of UB blocking or glazing color cast or a combination of the two.  As I said, even with the non-OBA papers, the Tru-Vue Museum glass added a warm cast (which I believe is the result of the UV coating), while the Tru-Vue AR added a greenish cast (which I believe is from the native color of the glass).  I am not sure you controlled for that in your demonstration?

Cheers.

[EDIT]

After revisiting the photos of my test, I can see that the effect on the EEF is greater than the non-OBA papers.  I will post images in a new thread since this one has drifted OT
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 08:46:48 AM by AFairley » Logged

Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 02:58:00 AM »
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However, reading your post, what comes to mind is whether the effect on whitepoint (which I do not doubt you observed, because I saw the same thing) is the result of UB blocking or glazing color cast or a combination of the two.  As I said, even with the non-OBA papers, the Tru-Vue Museum glass added a warm cast (which I believe is the result of the UV coating), while the Tru-Vue AR added a greenish cast (which I believe is from the native color of the glass).  I am not sure you controlled for that in your demonstration?

Cheers.

Does it matter what changes the paper white reflectance?  In general the effective UV blocking glasses, acrylics and foils all have a color cast related to that function. If that changes the paper white that it makes it less attractive than the OBA free alternatives then there is no gain in using that paper + the UV blocking glass.

In Dutch but graphics tell something, almost all with the qualification: Oordeel = goed (Judged good) show a color cast :
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27768335/UV-werende-eigenschappen-van-verschillende-typen-glas-kunststof-en-folies-voor-museale-doeleinden

There is something to be said for another approach that keeps the OBA effect. Not tested but not impossible either. Use one of the protective sprays to seal the surface of the print against gas fading and when framed use glass like Low Iron - Water White that has the least color cast and highest transmission of light. Framing behind glass reduces already the gas fading but the gain with a protective spray may be as effective as using UV blocking glass. Water White glass and OBA papers that withstand oxygen-ozon and light better + a protective coating is the best route then. Papers like that exist, the Low OBA content Canon Heavyweight Satin RC paper tested at Aardenburg shows far less paper white shifting in time even without a protective coating. Some fiber qualities showed improved resistance to paper white shifts when a protective coating was applied.

OBA free papers with a high white reflectance like the Epson Proofing White and framed with Water White glass can go without a protective spray. The paper is not as bright as EEF but has actually a higher white reflectance. Very wide gamut possible on that paper.

With a Solux lamp, samples of more papers and more glass types next to one another it should be possible to get that satisfying choice where the desired print quality is kept in time too.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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narikin
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012, 06:30:17 AM »
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If Epson would release a non-oba version of EEF, I would buy it forever. I really like the surface and weight of it.  Ilford GFS has a more plastic feel and look in comparison. I like the Harman Glossy FB AI also.
Sharon

Agree. As stated above, Innova IFA49 = EEF. It's the same stuff, unfortunately including the OBA burnout, BUT... look at other papers in the Innova range for one without OBA's and see if there's one you like the surface of. They just released a new all cotton rag, no OBA one, much like Museo Silver rag, but silly them, went and copied the light stipple texture surface of MSR/ Platine, and didn't keep their own lovely low gloss surface of IFA49/EEF.  It is of course much creamier paper, due to all cotton no OBA's, so YMMV.

I too use and love Harman Baryta, much like you. It has moderate OBA's but a very long life, (go figure) and a great smooth low gloss surface.   
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DeanChriss
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2012, 12:26:11 PM »
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Innova IFA49 = EEF. It's the same stuff

I looked at the Innova paper as a replacement for EEF, and the Innova was considerably different - not as heavy and it had a different surface texture, both of which were negatives for me.
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- Dean
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