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Author Topic: DSLR Video - Dream or Disaster ?  (Read 4885 times)
Morgan_Moore
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« on: February 28, 2012, 08:48:02 AM »
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Brushed across in many topics here !

Random thoughts..

I nearly bought a $70k beta cam once to get get going - luckily those days are long gone

I then bought an EX1 - its a fine camera but with a 1/3 chip and a 30mm (at the wide end) zoom it didn't really float my boat at all in terms of a photographic look

The advent of the D90 was a revelation, I was so excited to shoot with my nikon lenses, I new nothing of sound, frame rates, shutter speed - it was just fun to shoot, looked cool and was pretty small..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovGkKxKlHZs

The 5d took it up a level

So lets remember the good things..

Size, price, lenses available

And that size has implications on jibs, rigs and steadicam, reducing the support cost and mass in proportion of the square of the camera mass - a $10 skateboard becomes a legitimate piece of grip equipment

Lets not also forget that Danfung Dennis grabbed a 5d, kludged on a mic and went and shot an Oscar nominator http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15149177

Mr Dennis didn't care about 30p or even overheating warnings - he just went  out and shot content with a new level of mobility unseen in the history of large sensor acquisition

He also didn't have a hurried client breathing down his neck!

Over time issues, timecode, moire , roll times, sound synch - all these have reared their ugly heads

My main bugbear is the lack of sturdiness of the cameras and their connectors but overall a Vdlsr is a great part of my toolkit

Discuss?

SMM




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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2012, 08:54:32 AM »
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i think people forget about how cheap all this stuff is compared with what it enables you to do.
a few years ago if somebody said there was a 36mpixel camera available soon with very little noise below 800asa and excellent lenses (some with movements) were available for 600-1800 and the body was only 2300 i would have called them a loony fantasist.
what? you mean this camera shoots HD video too? Shocked
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bcooter
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 12:28:55 PM »
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i think people forget about how cheap all this stuff is compared with what it enables you to do.
a few years ago if somebody said there was a 36mpixel camera available soon with very little noise below 800asa and excellent lenses (some with movements) were available for 600-1800 and the body was only 2300 i would have called them a loony fantasist.
what? you mean this camera shoots HD video too? Shocked

DSLR's are a dream, but they're a very limited dream.

Ever use an old Canon XLI?   It autofocused, had a few manual focus lenses, accepted eos lense with a Canon adapter, it had a whole series of Canon made adpapters for xlR inputs, recorded great sound, even the on board mic was excellent and zoomed.

Once again the autofocus was excellent.

The color was tremendous, the iso was high, the only problem was it was small Standard def, and 3 chip ccd's that we're very small and pulled focus from 2" to 30 feet.    I think the price was like 3 or 4 grand.

Now my point in mentioning this is why not an XL1 with a larger cmos chip something like a S 35 in the same form factor?

To me that's the camera the C-300 should have been, or the 5d2/3 alternative could be, but instead we get an old teach style fillm camera that shoots video (c-300), or a whole slew of dslrs that shoot good video but not so good sound, don't autofocus, and really are not the easiest cameras to use in full production.

So I know for 4 or 5 grand it's possible to make such a camera, but instead, we've seem to gone off track with still cameras that shoot video, or video cameras that work all manually.

IMO

BC
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 01:47:36 PM »
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I know you don't like the FS100 - yep the highs are a little challenged - but I'm getting there with those

Really that camera is the S35 equivalent

To me thats what I am pleased with. Sound and a DSLR look and the cable falls out less often even AF with the kit lens..

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 02:52:22 AM »
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It is both a dream and a disaster. Dream for certain kind of work where shallow DOF is needed for effect, and it is truly HQ and CHEAP.

Disaster when people want to use it for things where a "normal" video camera is much easier to use, with autofocus, better ergonomics, working IS, built-in ND filters. Not forgetting the splendid audio possibilities that even prosumer HD video cams have.

Different tools for different jobs. There is no real competition between the two "camps" if there are camps. It is mostly the newcomers who discover the enormous but limited possibilities DSLR offer with video who think that video cameras have been now replaced for ever. Not so.
------

I use both 5DII and FX305, choose the tool to the job at hand. I just did two 2-3 hour interviews with 3 cameras. Did I take 3 5DII? No: 12 minute file limit, practically no sound, over heating, battery lasts for 40 minutes max. FX305: continuous shooting as long as there are memory cards, smooth zooming and exposure adjustment during the shoot etc.
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bcooter
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 03:24:52 AM »
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After a lot of testing and working the images in post, I've done a 180 on the fs100.  It's now my favorite camera and I use it more than our REDS (god forbid I use a smaller pixel sized camera) but there you go.

With some real testing and and pre pro work in setup you can get a hell of a great look out of this camera. 

Compared to even the best dslrs, their toys in the video world compared to the Sony.

IMO

BC

It is both a dream and a disaster. Dream for certain kind of work where shallow DOF is needed for effect, and it is truly HQ and CHEAP.

Disaster when people want to use it for things where a "normal" video camera is much easier to use, with autofocus, better ergonomics, working IS, built-in ND filters. Not forgetting the splendid audio possibilities that even prosumer HD video cams have.

Different tools for different jobs. There is no real competition between the two "camps" if there are camps. It is mostly the newcomers who discover the enormous but limited possibilities DSLR offer with video who think that video cameras have been now replaced for ever. Not so.
------

I use both 5DII and FX305, choose the tool to the job at hand. I just did two 2-3 hour interviews with 3 cameras. Did I take 3 5DII? No: 12 minute file limit, practically no sound, over heating, battery lasts for 40 minutes max. FX305: continuous shooting as long as there are memory cards, smooth zooming and exposure adjustment during the shoot etc.
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BJL
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 12:42:31 PM »
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After a lot of testing and working the images in post, I've done a 180 on the fs100.  It's now my favorite camera and I use it more than our REDS ...
What happens if, as rumored, the next step beyond the FS100 moves to 4K resolution with the price staying closer to the FS100 than Sony's current 4K model, the F65:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7710/the-sony-nex-fs700-4k-for-8k
http://www.nextwavedv.com/rumor-sony-to-announce-nex-fs700-at-nab-shooting-4k-960-fps-for-8k/
Only a rumor, but between competition from the RED Scarlet-X and the Canon C300, and Sony's interest in promoting 4K as the next big thing in video, a quite plausable rumor.

It seems to me that if Sony (and Canon) can continue this trend of sharing sensor technology between still and motion cameras, the economies of scale that have made digital cine-cameras so much more expensive will be improved, and then the huge cost advantage of using something like a 5D2 will be reduced, shifting back in favor of using a tool that is designed specifically for motion work. Leaving the video-still combo cams as good for some roles like journalism for online presentation where both stills and video are useful, but not for movie makers and television production.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:09:07 PM by BJL » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 01:22:34 PM »
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What happens if, as rumored, the next step beyond the FS100 moves to 4K resolution with the price staying closer to the FS100 than Sony's current 4K model, the F65:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7710/the-sony-nex-fs700-4k-for-8k
http://www.nextwavedv.com/rumor-sony-to-announce-nex-fs700-at-nab-shooting-4k-960-fps-for-8k/
Only a rumor, but between competition from the RED Scarlet-X and the Canon C300, and Sony's interest in promoting 4K as the next big thing in video, a quite plausable rumor.

It seems to me that if Sony (and Canon) can continue this trend of sharing sensor technology between still and motion cameras, the economies of scale that have made digital cine-cameras so much more expensive will be improved, and then the huge cost advantage of using something like a 5D2 will be reduced, shifting back in favor of using a tool that is designed specifically for motion work. Leaving the video-still combo cams as good for some roles like journalism for online presentation where both stills and video are useful, but not for movie makers and television production.

I never, ever think about what's going to happen in the camera world, because we all know it's going to change and Sony needs a lot more lenses in E mount that autofocus before they do anything else.

One thing I'd like to add is I don't think any camera today is a one sized fits all camera, still or motion or combination.

Digital video is going through the same rip and claw for brand supremacy that digital stills went through almost a decade ago.

4/5k raw, 2k prorezz arris, hvcd 2k sony's and of course the camera of choice by everyone  . . . the 5d2/3/4/5/6/7/8/910.

I originally thought RED raw was the ONLY way.  I mean why worry about it when you can change anything in post, but honestly you really can't change everything in post.

If your too far off on white balance, or if your exposure isn't spot on you can't just pull a slider over and make a bad file a good one.  It reminds me of when still photographer went from transparency to neg film, thinking neg film was bullet proof, but in reality a badly exposed piece of neg film would sometimes scan worse than an underexposed transparency film.

Any, owning a Sony, two R1's, one Scarlet, one 5d2 in the way I'm shooting my current project the best look I get out of camera (or with some small post processing is the RED One, #2 is the Sony (with a lot o testing) and #3 the Scarlet.

The scarlet is much easier to use than the R-1's due to size and form factor, but the screen is a PITA.  It's glossy, must be used for a lot of settings, sensitive to the touch and I've yet to find an in camera setting that looks anywhere within 200 miles of what the file looks like in computer.

The Scarlet file is flatter than Kansas but in computer looks pretty good, though it will only run RED Gamma and RED Color 2 not the original REd color which I like more and has more bite and contrast.

Since I paid retail for all of my cameras, I have no agenda here (disclaimer), but I find the RED's to be the medium format cameras of the motion world, the Sony is the dslr equivalent and I don't mean it's a 5d2 I mean there are things you can shoot with it with one person that would take 3 people to use the RED ONE.

I love my RED's won't ditch them, but the Sony has given us the most exciting footage.

Right now I'm in a project that started last year in Southern Asia and now is in Europe.  We just returned from Munch, now on our way to Moscow, Milan, the London.

We're shooting real people, though scripted, but since they are real people we want to add some excitement to the imagery.  Using a RED takes patience, time, and if you get tired (who isn't tired during long production days), can look flat footed.

The Sony is light weight has amazing autofocus with the kit lens and is such a nice form factor it makes you want to move it around. 

Technically the 2k Sony file is not 100% as good (whatever good means) as the RED, but an in focus, exciting piece of imagery, (still or motion) is a lot more important that 10% more technical quality.

Personally, as expensive as digital video is (especially in drives, post production, add ons, sound, continuous lighting) I think the sweet spot for a camera body is 5 grand.  8 to 10 thousand dollars is high given you need backups, AB cameras to do two shots, etc., so if Sony can get this rumored 4k camera to 5 or 6 thousand then they can become a big player, if they're not already.

All I can say is before you drop a trillion dollars on anything get your hands on one of these fs100's and test, test, test, test for your settings, work them in post again and again, then shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.

I know until I did the testing I hated the files of this camera, now I love them and though I own the RED's extremely respect the company, we move so much heavy stuff around the world, I really wish I had three of the Sonys.   I could cut down our cases by 5.



Just one thing to remember if this matters to you.  No camera I've ever owned draws the attention of the RED ONE with big ol' PL mount lenses.  On every project client's walk over and take snapshots of the R-1, the scarlet they don't even notice.


IMO

BC




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fredjeang
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 04:13:03 AM »
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I think that what you did with the Sony, test test test, will probably occurs with the Scarlet too and you'll managed to get the look you desire. I'm almost sure about it.

You know Coot, who really take the time to test? Well, someone that is on budget and that has to make a low-budget camera to deliver good files, yes or yes. And he-she end to get results.

But then, the camera up-grades bombing in wich we are "victims" don't help. This sensation that you buy a camera and it's immediatly obsolete doesn't really help to take the time to patiently learn one tool because learning deaply one tool is time and why someone should invest time in something that will go to the garbage in 2 years?
Now Sony is on the way to 4K, I'm sure there will be more testings involved to re-get the results.

I love digital tools, but IMO that's the weak point. Instead of buying a camera and take the time to learn all its possibilities etc...we compulsively upgrade (or we are politely invited to) and we really don't go deeply into the tool. When we just start to get it we got something else. Or, our patience has gone to the abyss and if the cam doesn't deliver the look we want at first, we don't use it. I think that all of us have falled in that at one point or another.

The think is that the really good upgrades, when there is a significant step, are numbered, but just read in this website to observe the brain-washing in action each time Canon or Nikon release a camera the forums are in flames and everybody wants it. But you look and what you see is, a little button here or there, a little more isos, a little more or less resolution. In fact, rarely things that will change the imagery itself our really help to free from hassle. Those only occur every 5 or 6 years.

Ironically, before us, photographers, there was already a motion world with tools well designed for, with AF that are working etc...it's amazing if you think about it, that we are looking to get AF when in the video world it's been decades cameramen are using perfectly reliable zoom autofocus, reliable video-cine cameras, reliable sound  etc...we sound like a childs who are discovering a magic world with our canon lenses. Honestly, there is something quite inocent in all that. Sweet and inocent.
It's been a long time since video-cinematographers are working with cameras and lenses that are really working perfectly for filming.

PS: Yesterday I edited in my studio with a 40 years old experience editor who owns its proper prod house. Well, the guy is an Avid guru, always worked with Avid in NLEs and he has got the latest 6 version. I told him that I did the pre-project in Edius in 10bits HQX codec for delays reason so we started to keep going the editing with it. After 30 minutes the guy was amazed and told me: I want one, it's the fastest and more intuitive editor I've seen. I'd ad, Included in color correct because I've never touched a Da-Vinci yet.
If somebody runs a PC workstation, I again suggest to take a serious look at this editor. In an hour you're ready to edit in serious up to grading and delivery.
 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 04:44:16 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Peter McLennan
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 11:00:49 AM »
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What happens if, as rumored, the next step beyond the FS100 moves to 4K resolution with the price staying closer to the FS100 than Sony's current 4K model, the F65:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/7710/the-sony-nex-fs700-4k-for-8k
http://www.nextwavedv.com/rumor-sony-to-announce-nex-fs700-at-nab-shooting-4k-960-fps-for-8k/
Only a rumor, but between competition from the RED Scarlet-X and the Canon C300, and Sony's interest in promoting 4K as the next big thing in video, a quite plausable rumor.

It's real.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/02/sony-nex-fs700-cinema-camera/

240 fps @ 1080P for 8 seconds.  4K soon with a firmware upgrade.  Under $10K.

I just got outta this business in time. : )

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fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 11:17:11 AM »
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Aahhh !

Finally something that lights my fire and not those absurd surgerycal-surgycal (how do you write this?) CaNikons upgrades. They put you one mic imput and it seems that they gifted heaven.

This Sony is generous. Specs are generous, price is contained and no hidden costs. This is what I was hopping to see.

That's something Canon seems to not want to understand now. The C300 wasn't a good deal IMO.

I don't really like the E-mount, I rather go for a smaller sensor and I know Panasonic will also react very soon in this direction but they need a less protective politics towards their pro-video-line.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 11:20:56 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 12:55:38 PM »
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After a lot of testing and working the images in post, I've done a 180 on the fs100.  It's now my favorite camera and I use it more than our REDS (god forbid I use a smaller pixel sized camera) but there you go.


Wow ! I thought you had given up on it .. I couldnt afford to give up on it so had to do the miles on the look Smiley

« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:58:26 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2012, 01:50:50 PM »
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I wonder how many gizmos need be bolted on, & how much will it will cost, to get 4k, especially RAW?

Will the recorder be proprietary, & only come from Sony?

The Gemini does uncompressed 4k for $6k.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/761157-REG/Convergent_Design_CD_GEMINI_01_Gemini_4_4_4_Uncompressed_Video.html

I appreciate the cam does 1080p out-of-the-box, with a pathway to 4k RAW, finally has HD-SDI, plus NDs, and the slomo sounds great, but my bet is will still chroma clip like the previous Sonys. What I wonder is if your goal is 4k RAW will it be pricier than a Scarlet?

That said I will take a serious look, & decide if it suits me.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 01:54:53 PM by Bern Caughey » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 01:54:17 PM »
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I think the recorder will be 'cheap' and use SSD drives

Simply Sony want to bring 4k on (I guess)

They have it in productions with the F65 and want to roll it out a hobbyist level

They then get to sell a lot of screens and projectors

If sony didnt want to stick some sticks in the fire they would have put this sensor in an F3 box and want $25g for it

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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bcooter
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2012, 02:25:08 PM »
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I wonder how many gizmos need be bolted on, & how much will it will cost, to get 4k, especially RAW?

Will the recorder be proprietary, & only come from Sony?

The Gemini does uncompressed 4k for $6k.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/761157-REG/Convergent_Design_CD_GEMINI_01_Gemini_4_4_4_Uncompressed_Video.html

I appreciate the cam does 1080p out-of-the-box, with a pathway to 4k RAW, finally has HD-SDI, plus NDs, and the slomo sounds great, but my bet is will still chroma clip like the previous Sonys. What I wonder is if your goal is 4k RAW will it be pricier than a Scarlet?

That said I will take a serious look, & decide if it suits me.





Bern,

We're deep in schedule right now, but if you want come by and we'll do a test.  I've got some settings in Apple color that will blow you away with the fs100.

I'm not selling cameras, but don't underestimate the great track auto focusing of the fs100.  The look and pull is so smooth, the ability to work smaller crew and do such great real life looks is amazing.

I keep saying it, I love my RED's, but I wish I had this new camera today as it would be on the plane with me Saturday and probably be the A cam or split time with the REDs.

NOBODY offers autofocus like the Sony.

Morgan,

Big thanks for staying with it.  You lit a fire under my ass and rather than give up on this camera, it's already saved my bacon.

I love the real xlr inputs, the sound mix, the form factor, the weight . . . .  It is a real camera mean for real production and if the next one comes close, I know a RED that will be hitting the classifieds.

IMO

BC
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BJL
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2012, 02:54:22 PM »
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BC,
    Thanks for the very detailed response. And now it is a semi-legitimate question, no longer being just future speculation/rumor, and with a US$10,000 price estimate:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57407947-264/nex-fs700-pushes-down-sonys-4k-videocamera-prices/

I am not in the market for such gear, but enjoy seeing the sector becoming more competitive and less expensive. The ball is in Canon's court now, I suppose.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:57:02 PM by BJL » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 03:53:58 PM »
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What happened to James "through" Morgan is interesting and probably one of the good reasons to follow a website like this.

I like a lot those 2 great members, both with their valuable apportations. What I saw in this particular story is that Morgan could extract the best of a camera,
probably with unlimited budget he would have give-up and upgrade. Coot who has more prod mediums had sort of gave-up, he has the Red after all. But, and that's where it's interesting,
James also wanted for a long time a smaller lighter format, and obviously not for custom-travel reasons only. The footage shooted with those kind of camera allows a lot more "organic" output if I might say.
They are faster to operate too.
I remember many posts from James saying that the ideal would be a Red output but within this Sony format-design. I also share those thoughts. The fact that Morgan animated B.C to reconsider the situation and
give the Sony another chance ended that he finally managed to get great look with it and a AF that isn't useless.
It's to celebrate indeed.

I also liked very much the 180 Coot did. It tells a lot on a person, and specially a successfull pro. People who are not stucked in their positions, capable of reconsidering questions, of disclaiming their previous claims are IMO the most valuable people and the thank you to Morgan completly confirms this.

I liked what I saw here.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 04:04:34 PM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 04:38:33 PM »
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Fred,

Those are nice words, but honestly I looked at Morgan's work, understand he's like most of us slugging it out in the trenches, he spent the money and has to make his money work for him . . . we all do.

Also Morgan has never been one of these people that gets stuck in brand worship.

So my point is I learned and the most valuable part of social media is to learn and hopefully give back a little.  Morgan gave back a lot.

Not to get off track, but when I'm in a meeting or don't understand something I have no issue showing my ignorance and asking "what does that mean".  I'd rather learn and look stupid, than act like I know something and not learn a thing.

Or like they said growing up in Texas.   "If your going to drink a lot, drink whiskey instead of vodka.  Better people think your drunk instead of a dumbass."

Now sometimes I still am a dumbass, bit I'm leaning.

Once again,

Thanks,

BC
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 05:00:04 AM by bcooter » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 05:12:29 PM »
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Too kind people - more from the trenches..
2 hours shoot, 5d2, FS100, one reflector, next day edit no grade..
http://vimeo.com/39442216

S


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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 12:23:07 PM »
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Bern,

We're deep in schedule right now, but if you want come by and we'll do a test.  I've got some settings in Apple color that will blow you away with the fs100.

Love to see you, & your wife.

Let me know when your schedule opens up, & I'll swing by.

Thanks,
B
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