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Author Topic: Arrrggh!!! Why are tech camera manufacturers stuck in the 90s?  (Read 4748 times)
epines
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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2012, 12:18:31 PM »
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I have the Arca-Swiss catalog, if you want it (8MB -- too big to attach here). No prices, but it has very thorough system information. This one might is from 2008, so it doesn't include the R system. PM me if you want it.

ethan
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torger
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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2012, 12:36:13 PM »
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Thanks.

My rant wasn't from the start about prices, it accidentally got there from that you practically need to get a quote to see what parts you need, since it is hard to get from the information web site. I have much less problem with that prices are not shown than that there is little or hard-to-decrypt information about the systems. But when you do have prices complete with "put in basket", like for example Arca-Swiss has, it would be nice to show what is included in the package.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2012, 01:01:11 PM »
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Torger

if you want info´s about Linhof it´s best you mail them directly at  info@linhof.de
they will answer and they will point you to the nearest dealer at your place.
you can also phone them at Tel +49 89 72492-0 , the website is in english(and german) and though I think it´s not soooo fancy you will find anything needed at

http://linhof.de/index-e.html

Just a little solidarity for my fellow bavarian makers......... Smiley

Regards
Stefan
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Because Photography is more than Technology and "as we have done this all the time"
www.hartblei.de     www.hcam.de    www.spectralize.com
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2012, 02:20:47 PM »
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The web sites are not he the only indication of which decade the View camera manufacturers are in ...

...look at the gear

¿Apart from the Hartblei, Have there been any major innovations since the Sinar P, about 50 years ago?

...Remember I am talking about cameras here, not the lenses or sensors.
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
gazwas
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2012, 02:38:37 PM »
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The web sites are not he the only indication of which decade the View camera manufacturers are in ...

...look at the gear

¿Apart from the Hartblei, Have there been any major innovations since the Sinar P, about 50 years ago?

...Remember I am talking about cameras here, not the lenses or sensors.

In some respects that suites me fine......

My Arca will still be going strong with its 50 year old manufacturing techniques long after many modern camera have been and gone.
If it ain't broke don't fix it is very fitting for these camera manufacturers as there are many things I could think of changing in the digital back and lenses I use but very little other than very minor tweaks to specific parts I'd change in my camera.
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gazwas
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2012, 02:45:58 PM »
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I just realized I've missed the Arca-Swiss M-two MF which looks interesting.

The Arca ML2 is the camera I use and I love every bit of it and find it a joy to use but finding info about it on the web is almost impossible.

However I recently noticed Robert White Photographic, the Arca dealer I bought mine from here in the UK has just posted a video on YouTube doing a brief demo and explanation of the camera. Link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Vl3r-MAdc&feature=plcp&context=C3159b25UDOEgsToPDskLbxAwhWgGZJpQZ0JbNictN

Not sure its the best choice "landscape" camera but a fine piece of kit all the same.
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BarbaraArmstrong
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2012, 03:39:37 PM »
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Well, I just felt I had to jump in here and say, YES, I think it is perfectly appropriate and OK to ask for a quote so you can think about it for a year.  In fact, I did that two years ago, when I stopped in at Optechs Digital here in Seattle, after reading the piece Dubovoy did on the Alpa TC.  A year later, I got a follow-up email, and I replied that I was still thinking about it, as I was, and reading everything I could, and trying to decide what my next investments in equipment should be.  We are now two years later and I am still thinking about it.  Of course, in the meantime, the real cost in dollars has gone up as the value of the dollar relative to the Swiss franc has gone down.  I do expect to give my business to Optechs when and if I decide to take the plunge.  I've refined my knowledge and thinking about this enterprise, so the time hasn't been wasted.  I'm reminded of the poster who bought an Alpa system, then was disappointed that he couldn't enjoy focusing on the ground glass the way he had hoped to, so was going to sell his system not long after the purchase.  It is a big enough purchase (for sure!!) that one would like to avoid a mistake.  And we all have our own methods and preferences.  So yes, just go ahead and get a good idea of what everything would cost you and then think about it! --Barbara
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torger
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2012, 03:46:06 PM »
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An innovation could be a light-amplifying digital loupe for those dim ground glass corners perhaps Wink.

I think the M-two can be fine for landscape, indeed heavier and harder to pack than a pancake camera, but compared to an old-school 4x5" field camera it is not so bad. View cameras have a few advantages from my point of view - 1) flexibility in movements, 2) romance, geared movements ahhhhhhh... black metal.... ahhhhhh... leather bellows.... aahahhhhhahhh.... 3) economical solution.
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gazwas
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2012, 04:33:08 PM »
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3) economical solution.

Don't under estimate cost of ownership of the Arca ML2.

The cost to purchase the camera is very similar to the R's (in the UK) but while you don't have the added expense of mounting the lens (£700 ish extra) have you priced up leather bellows, extension rails, optical benches, recessed lens panels, quality dark cloths etc?

Can't quite remember now but I seem to remember the leather wide angle bellows and a recessed panel was between £500-£600.

Not as economical as you might think.   Shocked
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alon
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2012, 04:56:36 PM »
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Hi Torger,

Rod Klukas, the US representative for Arca-Swiss, has a newish website with all of the Arca-Swiss product brochures available to download directly from the right hand sidebar:
 http://rodklukas.com/

A dedicated Arca-Swiss informational page:
http://rodklukas.com/arca-swiss/

Also, an embedded video page for Arca-Swiss products, currently showing an R-Line video and the Robert White MF-Two video:
http://rodklukas.com/video/

Rod can give you an estimate for a complete system (even from the USA) and can help you find a suitable dealer in Europe. I encourage you to get quotes from other manufacturers and believe an Arca-Swiss camera will be very competitive, especially when you compare features.
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torger
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« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 03:46:24 AM »
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Don't under estimate cost of ownership of the Arca ML2.

The cost to purchase the camera is very similar to the R's (in the UK) but while you don't have the added expense of mounting the lens (£700 ish extra) have you priced up leather bellows, extension rails, optical benches, recessed lens panels, quality dark cloths etc?

Can't quite remember now but I seem to remember the leather wide angle bellows and a recessed panel was between £500-£600.

Not as economical as you might think.   Shocked

I don't like the look of ultra-wides. 35mm is the widest I'll go, and that might need a recessed board, but not sure (the Arca web does not say of course). I know it is needed 7mm recessed for the kapture group sliding back, but with normal adapters perhaps not. The wide angle bellows is good for up to 135mm meaning that I will probably need only that. The hiking lens set will likely be 35, 47, 72, 120, all those four lenses cost together no more than €6000, so adding 4 x €1000 in lens mount cost to that would be significant. Since I aim at second hand digital backs, starting with 22 megapixel, possibly even tethered if I'm brave (and in a couple of years or so upgrade to 40), the back can be had for only ~€3000, meaning that the camera + lenses cost will be considerably more than the back, so all details are indeed important to consider.

I do think the Linhof Techno suits my needs a little bit better though, but I surely look up the Arca further.
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gazwas
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« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 05:41:16 AM »
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I don't like the look of ultra-wides. 35mm is the widest I'll go, and that might need a recessed board, but not sure (the Arca web does not say of course). I know it is needed 7mm recessed for the kapture group sliding back, but with normal adapters perhaps not. The wide angle bellows is good for up to 135mm meaning that I will probably need only that. The hiking lens set will likely be 35, 47, 72, 120, all those four lenses cost together no more than €6000, so adding 4 x €1000 in lens mount cost to that would be significant. Since I aim at second hand digital backs, starting with 22 megapixel, possibly even tethered if I'm brave (and in a couple of years or so upgrade to 40), the back can be had for only ~€3000, meaning that the camera + lenses cost will be considerably more than the back, so all details are indeed important to consider.

I do think the Linhof Techno suits my needs a little bit better though, but I surely look up the Arca further.

All I know from experience is that if I was purchasing from scratch and all I wanted to shoot was landscapes the only cameras I'd be looking at would be Arca, Alpa and Cambo with their helical focus mounts regardless of cost and I wouldn't even consider GG focusing/tethering in the wild.

IMO I would just start with one or two lenses rather than your ideal four and build your system gradually rather that all at once.
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torger
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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2012, 06:18:33 AM »
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All I know from experience is that if I was purchasing from scratch and all I wanted to shoot was landscapes the only cameras I'd be looking at would be Arca, Alpa and Cambo with their helical focus mounts regardless of cost and I wouldn't even consider GG focusing/tethering in the wild.

IMO I would just start with one or two lenses rather than your ideal four and build your system gradually rather that all at once.

Yeah I know, some say GG focusing is impossible, some say it is ok. I've played around with a wide angle on 6x9 analog camera and yes it is not a DSLR live view, but I think I can manage. I kind of like the feel of using ground glass, and seeing the exact framing. The big disadvantage is that it is dim. Having the right loupe and avoid light leaks around the eye makes quite a big difference. Haven't tried the Silvestri tilting loupe, but I guess it can make big difference in corner focusing of the wides.

Later I'll do some sanity check calculations on DOF and bellows extension etc, but I'm quite sure that I don't really need the ultra-precision focusing distance of the helical mounts.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:22:57 AM by torger » Logged
gazwas
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« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2012, 06:46:43 AM »
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Yeah I know, some say GG focusing is impossible, some say it is ok. I've played around with a wide angle on 6x9 analog camera and yes it is not a DSLR live view, but I think I can manage. I kind of like the feel of using ground glass, and seeing the exact framing. The big disadvantage is that it is dim. Having the right loupe and avoid light leaks around the eye makes quite a big difference. Haven't tried the Silvestri tilting loupe, but I guess it can make big difference in corner focusing of the wides.

Later I'll do some sanity check calculations on DOF and bellows extension etc, but I'm quite sure that I don't really need the ultra-precision focusing distance of the helical mounts.

Quite the contrary, I GG focus every day and it is very easy to get good focus with a good loupe but I always shoot product/interiors tethered so always easy to check focus but on location exteriors shooting tethered is sometime impractical. Then, unless your using the latest IQ back screen (and you're not) hitting 100% focus is a bit like going back to the 5x4 days and always having that doubt in your mind "did I nail that exposure?"

For me, that uncertainty is why I'd choose a camera system with a focus mount lens. It has nothing to do with how pin point accurate each manufacturers system is or what your expectations of acceptable sharp focus is but more ease of use. Forget corner focusing as the fall off with the wide (35mm) lenses is so great (up to 2 stops) at the edges, coupled with the "universal" fresnel mounted into standard GG screens, seeing much in all but the brightest lighting will be very difficult. On the Arca ML2, in focus and totally soft focus is a fraction of a millimetre on the rail measurements scale, thats how wafer thin the plane of focus is. Couple that with exterior light hitting an already dim GG washing out any trace of contrast to focus by and you soon realise that extra money spent on the lens mount may have been worth it.

Nothing is impossible, but anything difficult enough can soon become a chore and in my eyes, thats not "economical".  Undecided
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torger
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« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2012, 07:37:28 AM »
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Nothing is impossible, but anything difficult enough can soon become a chore and in my eyes, thats not "economical".  Undecided

Yes when something becomes too much of a hassle is hard to measure/estimate, and even hard to test since one need to have some experience with a system under a longer time in various conditions to get a feel of how it works. If it doesn't work out well for me I guess I have to sell the system and lose some money. The risk of getting a completely new system will never be zero. But I do appreciate that you share your experience, I'll surely make a pancake camera budget too and see what it says.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:56:22 AM by torger » Logged
NBP
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« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 02:58:23 AM »
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I've just been dealing with Seitz - their website is excellent.
http://www.roundshot.ch/
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