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Author Topic: The Epson 7900/9900 Were Introduced May 2008, We Have To Be Close....  (Read 3369 times)
Gemmtech
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« on: March 08, 2012, 09:33:26 AM »
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I would be surprised if the Epson 7900/9900 replacements weren't announced within the next few months. The Epson 7900/9900 were announced May 2008 and launched at the end of 2008, that's almost four years ago...  What has Epson been doing?  Wasn't Epson on a 3 year cycle for these printers?  Certainly they have been working hard to blow away the competition, HP fell way behind, but Canon still appears to be putting out great products.

I have my bucket list of features I would like...

1.  Eliminate GD completely, add a clear coating (how difficult can this be?)
2.  Accept a cassette that can hold at least 10 sheets, preferably 50 cut sheets of any media type
3.  Make the blacks blacker, ala dye
4.  Build it from carbon fiber... weight savings would be phenomenal
5.  Have an internal cleaning mechanism so clogs are a thing of the past, IOW, don't use ink
6.  Add a tweet on twitter for each print I make (Joking)

OK Epson, I'm ready, I'm assuming by 12-12-2012 I'll have an Epson "8000"

Garry


« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 10:53:10 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 10:07:14 AM »
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OK Epson, I'm ready, I'm assuming by 12-12-2012 I'll have an Epson "8000"

And then the world will end. So, why bother?  Tongue
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 10:10:20 AM by Geraldo Garcia » Logged
Farmer
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 03:28:19 PM »
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1.  Eliminate GD completely, add a clear coating (how difficult can this be?)

It's done on some Epsons, of course.  It's going to be a matter of cost and demand rather than difficulty, I think.

2.  Accept a cassette that can hold at least 10 sheets, preferably 50 cut sheets of any media type

On the 4900 style or do you mean for the larger machines?  What size media?  Do you want flat path?

3.  Make the blacks blacker, ala dye

For PK or MK or both?  Are there any pigments out there that are significantly blacker that we could use to measure against or are they all pretty similar across all the vendors at the moment?

4.  Build it from carbon fiber... weight savings would be phenomenal

Is weight really an issue?  Are you talking about wanting, say, a more portable 4900 style?  Rigidity seems more important to me, as well as keeping cost down (carbon fibre is going to be more expensive).

5.  Have an internal cleaning mechanism so clogs are a thing of the past, IOW, don't use ink

Any concepts coming to mind as to how to clean a print head without using ink to push it through?
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Schewe
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 04:03:36 PM »
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I would be surprised if the Epson 7900/9900 replacements weren't announced within the next few months.

I would be surprised if Epson replaced the 79/9900 any time soon (as in years, not months).

I wouldn't hold your breath...
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 04:09:08 PM »
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I did forget one feature, maybe it could have a spell check feature!  Wink

Re: GD, personally I abhor having to tone down my highlights because there's no or little ink.  Just seems like the print shouldn't have any.  If I want to display a large print with no glass or coating I shouldn't have the GD.  

Re: Cassette, I want a cassette for the "8000" that accepts all cut media size, why not 4x6 min and 24" maximum?  How many people complain about roll paper and curl, especially at the end of the roll.  I imagine a lot of people would love cut sheet capability?  Straight through feed or close to it.

Re: Blacks, PK and MK still aren't at the level of dye.... I'd settle for blacker blacks with PK if I had to chose just one.

Re:  Weight, Carbon fiber isn't going to happen, but wouldn't it be nice if one or two people could lift a 7900? :-)  

Re:  Cleaning, why can't there be a tank of solvent the print heads rest in?  Or have the ability to blow solvent through each end of each color line?   Anything that is cheaper than the ink itself.  I always use an ammonia pad under my print head of my 1280 and I never get a clog.  If a solvent could wick up the first 1/4" - 1/2" of the line the clogging should be eliminated, though I'll admit I don't know exactly where the clog occurs in these machines, it seems it should occur at the end of the line.  I just believe there has to be a less expensive way to clean the lines without using expensive ink.  I don't use $100.00 per gallon product to clean the paint from my Binks spray equipment, I use a solvent and ink is a lot more than $100 per gallon.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:11:56 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
Gemmtech
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 04:11:15 PM »
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I would be surprised if Epson replaced the 79/9900 any time soon (as in years, not months).

I wouldn't hold your breath...

That's discouraging, because I'm sure you'd probably know the answer of approximately when!  Years?  Even cars have a quicker cycle now than 5 years.  And there are a lot of improvements that could be done without a complete redesign.  

Maybe it's time to tear one down....... :-) 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:21:36 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 05:39:16 PM »
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I just believe there has to be a less expensive way to clean the lines without using expensive ink.  I don't use $100.00 per gallon product to clean the paint from my Binks spray equipment, I use a solvent and ink is a lot more than $100 per gallon.

And that is exactly why they will never do that. Do you think Epson (or any other brand) is selling ink to keep their "printer selling business" alive? No! It is the exact opposite: They are selling printers to keep their "ink selling business" going on, that is where the money is. A more frugal printer is bad business for them.

Best regards.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 07:14:38 PM »
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And that is exactly why they will never do that. Do you think Epson (or any other brand) is selling ink to keep their "printer selling business" alive? No! It is the exact opposite: They are selling printers to keep their "ink selling business" going on, that is where the money is. A more frugal printer is bad business for them.

Best regards.

That's true until another company does it, then you have royally pissed off your customer base and if they defect....  And I believe people would rather spend more for the inks and waste less and have fewer problems and less aggravation.

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Farmer
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 09:13:18 PM »
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Let's assume you had a solvent or whatever other cleaning fluid to run through instead of ink, and it was cheaper.  You'd still use ink because you'd have to purge ink already in the head channel (at least, assuming you had a gate at the head) and then you'd need to purge the cleaning fluid with ink once cleaned.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I don't think that approach is quite going to work.

I also doubt very much whether any vendor is relying on cleaning to boost ink sales.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 09:27:04 PM »
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Let's assume you had a solvent or whatever other cleaning fluid to run through instead of ink, and it was cheaper.  You'd still use ink because you'd have to purge ink already in the head channel (at least, assuming you had a gate at the head) and then you'd need to purge the cleaning fluid with ink once cleaned.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I don't think that approach is quite going to work.

I also doubt very much whether any vendor is relying on cleaning to boost ink sales.

You'd have to purge "some" ink, considerably less than what is being used now, probably 95% less.  As far as cleaning to boost ink sales, if they weren't they'd certainly not waste so much. 
As far as what will and what won't work, I'm going to have to tear one apart with a couple of my friends and f-i-l to take a look.  It wouldn't be the first machine we have redesigned for a manufacturer.

 
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Farmer
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 12:34:13 AM »
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Yes, it might be less ink than is currently used, but 95%?  I doubt it.  You'd have to cost analyse as to whether the amount of ink still used plus the amount of cleaning fluid (at the cheaper price) including what then has to be purged was actually less than the cost of just using ink by itself.  It might be, and it might still be cheaper after the cost of the system being put in place and so on.

Even systems that gate the PK/MK at the head use a measurable amount of ink to do a swap - multiply that across all channels and it certainly becomes more complex and less immediately attractive economically.

I'm sure Epson will be eager to review your findings.
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 12:43:24 AM »
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I can't imagine the possible nightmares of trying to purge the solvent (and guarantee that is 100% purged) so you would have no impact on image quality.  the theory sounds good but practicality sounds impossible.  Maybe as a scenario to clear some serious problems but not standard practice.

I know we are used to product cycles and yes I think there are some things about the 79/9900 that could be improved, but to be honest I just don't know if there is any way to get a significant and useful improvement in gamut or other factors with pigment ink. I wish they could figure out how to improve the issue with clogs (or whatever they are)- at least be similar to the 38xx printers ... not sure if it's just a size thing or what but they hardly ever clog.

But the 79/9900's are terrific, and any improvements would probably fall in the category of tweaks ... no reason to upgrade until you just need a new one.

but you never know ... (although Jeff probably does so I don't expect one )
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Farmer
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 12:52:17 AM »
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If Jeff knows, he can't say, so we should probably be more polite and not ask :-)

Wayne - you know, when a service tech flushes or refurbs a machine it takes a full ink charge to make sure that the lines only have ink in them.  Sure, some sort of cleaning system would presumably improve upon that and maybe it just needs to inject some cleaner into the ink flow at the head and thus reduce the risk of leaving any behind - but you're right, it's not going to be so simple and the first sign of incorrect colours or banding etc because some cleaning fluid ended up being printed out and you have a whole lot more complaints.
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 01:01:25 AM »
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That's true until another company does it, then you have royally pissed off your customer base and if they defect....  And I believe people would rather spend more for the inks and waste less and have fewer problems and less aggravation.

That was EXACTLY the line of thinking that made me buy an HP Z3200 and I canīt tell you how happy I am!  Grin
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 06:40:16 AM »
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Yes, it might be less ink than is currently used, but 95%?  I doubt it.  You'd have to cost analyse as to whether the amount of ink still used plus the amount of cleaning fluid (at the cheaper price) including what then has to be purged was actually less than the cost of just using ink by itself.  It might be, and it might still be cheaper after the cost of the system being put in place and so on.

Even systems that gate the PK/MK at the head use a measurable amount of ink to do a swap - multiply that across all channels and it certainly becomes more complex and less immediately attractive economically.

I'm sure Epson will be eager to review your findings.

You may doubt 95% savings, I don't... And I didn't say it would be easy, nothing ever seems to be. :-)

You know, I should lambaste you for your last arrogant (albeit based upon ignorance) comment, but I'll refrain from doing so. The fact is there have been many large corporations with 1000s of brilliant engineers who were taught how to make one of their own devices better or even function properly by an independent engineer or just an average Joe and I'm only speaking about my circle of family and friends.  I'm sure the conversation went something like this back in the 70s "Yeah Bill, I'm sure IBM is eagerly waiting for you to sell them an operating system" that could have never happened, IBM was the largest computer company in the world and was being granted more patents than any other company. 

A few other well known men...

Robert Kearns - You know who he is right?  

Martin Eberhard and  Elon Musk

Ross Perot

Steve Wozniak

The aforementioned four men tried to convince very large corporations that their creations were unique, they "failed".  Obviously Ross Perot worked for IBM and Steve Wozniak worked for HP, Robert Kearns tried to sell his device (intermittent windshield wiper) to the "Big 3", but they didn't want to buy it, so they stole it, he successfully sued and "won"! (even though he won millions, does one ever win in American Courts?, another discussion)  There are countless examples of this, so for you to say "I'm sure Epson will be eager to review your findings." tells me you have never designed or invented anything, for if you had you wouldn't make such a ridiculous comment.   A good friend of mine (owner of a small $30 million co.) has saved a letter from Roger Smith (retired CEO of GM in the 1980s) thanking him for showing the engineers at GM how to make a piece of equipment work both companies had purchased, the engineers at GM couldn't get their 7 units working, my friends "Chief Engineer" (self taught, no college education)  showed them how to make the machines work.  I hope you get the point.  It's possible Epson wouldn't welcome somebody with open arms who decided to devise a method of saving ink, but I bet when customers start purchasing other brands, they will wake up.... Don't be one of these people who believes all the best and brightest work for a Fortune 1000 company, they don't and there's a reason why some do and some don't..... Think about it..

I don't know how much Jeff Schewe is told by Epson regarding future products, but if Epson is like every other large corporation they don't tell "consultants" much until the date gets close.  I have no idea what Jeff does or doesn't know and that wouldn't discourage me from tearing one apart.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 09:29:26 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
Gemmtech
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 06:48:49 AM »
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That was EXACTLY the line of thinking that made me buy an HP Z3200 and I canīt tell you how happy I am!  Grin

And that is why HP & Canon have made great strides.....  Granted, HP seems to have fallen behind, but Canon has been a strong contender.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 07:14:05 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 07:28:02 AM »
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You'd have to purge "some" ink, considerably less than what is being used now, probably 95% less.  As far as cleaning to boost ink sales, if they weren't they'd certainly not waste so much. 
As far as what will and what won't work, I'm going to have to tear one apart with a couple of my friends and f-i-l to take a look.  It wouldn't be the first machine we have redesigned for a manufacturer.


There was a Stork textile inkjet printer that had an arrangement like that but that was still a CMYK model so less channels to cope with. Amethyst, Zircon, or?

The most frugal on ink in cleaning and printing are the HP Z models, no need for cleaning fluid technology. Their matte black also has a very high Dmax. On sheet loading it might be the worst model :-)


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

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Gemmtech
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 08:31:42 AM »
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Ernst,

Thanks for the information, interesting...
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Farmer
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 03:43:50 PM »
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Don't be one of these people who believes all the best and brightest work for a Fortune 1000 company, they don't and there's a reason why some do and some don't..... Think about it..

I've never thought that.  I've also never thought, based on anything you've ever written here, that you would be one of the ones not working for such a company - that's all.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 03:54:53 PM »
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I've never thought that.  I've also never thought, based on anything you've ever written here, that you would be one of the ones not working for such a company - that's all.

This will be the last time I reply to anything you write. 

I find your statement ironic......Why respond to anything I write?  You seem to be trolling and or stalking me, why?  If you don't agree with anything I write, please just ignore my posts and I'll reciprocate.  Let's just agree to ignore each other.  Fact is, I haven't followed your posts, I don't know who you are, nor do I have any interest, you haven't written anything I have read that leads me to believe you have a clue...

Good day
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