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Author Topic: Apple and Colour Management – Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Out  (Read 21756 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2012, 01:08:03 PM »
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I did some testing with Chris Murphy a few weeks back when some of his students indicated there might be an issue with Lion. Here is the copy and paste using several methods of printing targets. ACPU is the Adobe Color Print Utility:

Quote
Targets printed on Luster, Epson 4900. Dried down over the weekend.

ACPU 10.6.8 vs. 10.7.3
-------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 918

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.21
    Max dE:   0.66
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.19
    Max dE:   0.35
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.08

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.41
    Max dE:   0.66
    Min dE:   0.35
 StdDev dE:   0.06

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

So no issue there.

Then there is i1Profiler versus ACPU on 10.6.8:

--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 918

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.43
    Max dE:   0.84
    Min dE:   0.04
 StdDev dE:   0.17

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.39
    Max dE:   0.66
    Min dE:   0.04
 StdDev dE:   0.15

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.73
    Max dE:   0.84
    Min dE:   0.66
 StdDev dE:   0.04

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

i1Profiler 10.6.8 vs. 10.7.3 (this is a tad high which is odd):

--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 918

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.50
    Max dE:   1.12
    Min dE:   0.02
 StdDev dE:   0.24

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.45
    Max dE:   0.82
    Min dE:   0.02
 StdDev dE:   0.20

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.91
    Max dE:   1.12
    Min dE:   0.82
 StdDev dE:   0.07

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

Finally i1Profiler vs. APCU on 10.7.3:

--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 918

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.14
    Max dE:   0.46
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.08

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.13
    Max dE:   0.25
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.06

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.30
    Max dE:   0.46
    Min dE:   0.25
 StdDev dE:   0.05

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

So Chris, at least with this paper on a 4900, I think all is good with ACPU and perhaps i1P. An average dE of .5 isn’t great, leading me to recommend the use of ACPU until we hear further from X-Rite.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2012, 01:09:29 PM »
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Scott, I'm not quite sure we're on the same page here ?

Having tried this in previous testing (not quite as the OP above) I would not be confident that the Adobe RGB would work in a ‘null transform’.  Certainly there are visible differences between using sRGB (point taken about weird profiles), Generic RGB, and ProPhoto RGB (the last being dramatically different).  My understanding is that, in theory, the profile does not take part in the Apple part of the printing path, it merely tells the Apple part not to ‘colour mange’ the document (oh what tangled web has Apple woven !).

BTW – Andrew, sorry to have have called you Rodney (smiles apologetically).  My mistake.

The only way a null transformation will work is if you can determined the profile that your driver OS combination is using when it cannot turn off CM and then use that profile assigned to the target file in PS, because in PSCS5 you can not send to the printer an unmanaged target like you could in PSCS4 with the No Color Management setting. That is what the Adobe Color Printing Utility is for.

But it sounds like your printer driver is not able to turn off CM when instructed to by an application.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:11:46 PM by Doyle Yoder » Logged
Scott Martin
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2012, 01:11:12 PM »
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I did some testing with Chris Murphy a few weeks back when some of his students indicated there might be an issue with Lion. Here is the copy and paste using several methods of printing targets. ACPU is the Adobe Color Print Utility:

Why don't you throw in Null Transform trick!? And CMYK and Grayscale device profiling?  :-] I think you'll find the null transform trick one method that works for all of them on all operating systems...
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2012, 01:20:28 PM »
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Why don't you throw in Null Transform trick!? And CMYK and Grayscale device profiling?  :-] I think you'll find the null transform trick one method that works for all of them on all operating systems...

Scott would you agree that when a printer driver is working properly and turning CM off that the null transformation prints a target correctly, but when and printer driver is not working correctly and not turning off CM then it not print a target correctly unless you can determined the exact profile being used in the driver OS conversion and what rendering intent.

I believe this is the heart of SimonS's problem and his lack of understanding what is going on here.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2012, 01:20:56 PM »
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The only way a null transformation will work is if you can determined the profile that your driver OS combination is using when it cannot turn off CM and then use that profile assigned to the target file in PS, because...

Can you tell me a situation where the null transform trick using AdobeRGB doesn't work in CS5 for RGB managed printers? Can you tell me a situation where the null tranform trick using "U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2" doesn't work in CS5 for CMYK managed Postscript laser printers?

And yes, like you, I like to use Photoshop's Plugin when profiling Canon iPF printers. Quite fool-proof!

in PSCS5 you can not send to the printer an unmanaged target like you could in PSCS4 with the No Color Management setting.

CS3 was the last version to have "No Color Management". CS4 had it's own problems let's not get into...

That is what the Adobe Color Printing Utility is for.

But all the same functionality and more is there in CS5... Why use ACPU with it's limitations?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:27:14 PM by Onsight » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 01:26:48 PM »
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Scott would you agree that when a printer driver is working properly and turning CM off that the null transformation prints a target correctly, but when and printer driver is not working correctly and not turning off CM then it not print a target correctly unless you can determined the exact profile being used in the driver OS conversion and what rendering intent. I believe this is the heart of SimonS's problem and his lack of understanding what is going on here.

I see - thanks Doyle. Yes, we agree and I wish I was sitting at Simon's computer so we could do some testing right now. But I think the driver will behave when printing from PS with the Null Transform trick. The Munki software and otherwise may have issues...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:31:38 PM by Onsight » Logged

Scott Martin
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 01:30:31 PM »
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Simon - as I understand it, the dialog you've posted looks that way when printing from Color Munki right? Have you tried printing from Photoshop using the Null Transform trick. To make a long story short that's how I think it should be done... There are otherwise too many variables and ways it can get screwed up.
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2012, 01:39:34 PM »
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Going back to the original question on how to properly print profiling targets:

Simple answer: Use Windows. It just works. Oh wait ... wasn't that a slogan for something else?
ROFL - good to see some humor here; but of course I'm a confirmed Windows user

Quote
If you use the ACPU for target printing be aware that it shrinks the target dimensions by about 3%. If you are using minimum patch dimensions, this can create chart reading problems or measurement inaccuracies depending on the instrument used. Scale the target size up slightly and you'll be fine.
Yes, this has been commented on to Adobe a number of times and they appear reluctant to do anything about it.  I first noticed it when I was printing out targets to use with ArgyllCMS.  Quick question, how do you scale up the target patches (Photoshop???).

thanks,

Alan
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2012, 01:41:08 PM »
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I see - thanks Doyle. Yes, we agree and I wish I was sitting at Simon's computer so we could do some testing right now!

I might have missed it but I don't see where SimonS mentions what specific printer he has. But, I do know with the iPF printers that if PSCS5, ACPU, or i1Profiler 1.2 were not listed in the special cases file I would be seeing the same issues when printing targets.

My experience with null transformation were with Epson printers when this issue brought about by changes in the OS first occurred. So in PSCS5 are you choosing Photoshop Manages Color or Printer Manages Color when sending a null transformed target.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2012, 01:44:12 PM »
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ROFL - good to see some humor here; but of course I'm a confirmed Windows user
Yes, this has been commented on to Adobe a number of times and they appear reluctant to do anything about it.  I first noticed it when I was printing out targets to use with ArgyllCMS.  Quick question, how do you scale up the target patches (Photoshop???).

thanks,

Alan

Oh but shrinking targets was a Windows problem. Trading one problem for another. We can't win.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2012, 01:47:15 PM »
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I might have missed it but I don't see where SimonS mentions what specific printer he has.

His screen grab shows he's using a Canon iP4700. No plug-in for that, AFAIK.

But, I do know with the iPF printers that if PSCS5, ACPU, or i1Profiler 1.2 were not listed in the special cases file I would be seeing the same issues when printing targets.

Yes, true, and thanks for all your help with the XML files. Again, this is one more reason to use the PS Plug-in when profiling iPF printers if possible.

My experience with null transformation were with Epson printers when this issue brought about by changes in the OS first occurred. So in PSCS5 are you choosing Photoshop Manages Color or Printer Manages Color when sending a null transformed target.

Just to clarify, one needs to use "Photoshop Manages Color", AdobeRGB, RelCol, noBPC with a target that has AdobeRGB assigned to it, for RGB managed printers (inkjets mostly).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:49:58 PM by Onsight » Logged

Scott Martin
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2012, 01:49:29 PM »
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Oh but shrinking targets was a Windows problem. Trading one problem for another. We can't win.
Yeah and Windows is about to behave exactly the same as the Mac OS as regards to all of this... Again, the null transform trick is one that works with all devices and operating systems, even upcoming ones from Microsoft and Apple within the forceable future.
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2012, 01:55:45 PM »
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Yeah and Windows is about to behave exactly the same as the Mac OS as regards to all of this... Again, the null transform trick is one that works with all devices and operating systems, even upcoming ones from Microsoft and Apple within the forceable future.
I think Windows 7 may be in my future for a lot longer if that's the case!
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2012, 01:56:49 PM »
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I think Windows 7 may be in my future for a lot longer if that's the case!
I know what you mean! I thought the same thing about XP a while ago but have been forced to move along...
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2012, 02:05:33 PM »
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Just to clarify, one needs to use "Photoshop Manages Color", AdobeRGB, RelCol, noBPC with a target that has AdobeRGB assigned to it, for RGB managed printers (inkjets mostly).

But for those printer drivers that will not turn off CM when "Photoshop Manages Color" is selected then you need to assign the same profile that the driver/os is using for conversion. As I recall OS 10.5 used sRGB, 10.6 uses AdobeRGB. So what is 10.7 using?
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2012, 03:26:41 PM »
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But for those printer drivers that will-not/ can-not turn off CM when "Photoshop Manages Color" is selected...

Which ones are those?
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »
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Which ones are those?

That is the big question. Which ones?

But that has to be determined first before you can start diagnosing all the other possibilities.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2012, 03:43:24 PM »
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That is the big question. Which ones?
But that has to be determined first before you can start diagnosing all the other possibilities.

Do they actually exist? Show me a printer I can't profile! :-p

For my business, all things start with the null transform trick (or the PS plug-in in the case of iPF printers). If that doesn't work I'll start digging deep but it's pretty rare that that's needed. In the case of the OP I think he should start with the null transform trick and see if that doesn't work for him. I think it will work fine.
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2012, 03:52:36 PM »
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Do they actually exist? Show me a printer I can't profile! :-p

Pretty hard to profile consumer printers that don't respect color management nor offer a way of turning CM off. The one I've got you can't really profile is an Epson PictureMate printer. I just feed it sRGB and use Printer Manages Color.
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2012, 04:19:18 PM »
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I did some testing with Chris Murphy a few weeks back when some of his students indicated there might be an issue with Lion. Here is the copy and paste using several methods of printing targets. ACPU is the Adobe Color Print Utility:
Andrew: Your data suggest that the problem is i1Profiler on 10.6.8. Both the i1P vs ACPU on 10.6.8 and i1P 10.6.8 vs. i1P 10.7.3 show higher average error and, more tellingly, at least double the standard deviation of the other two comparisons. The errors are not limited to a few outliers; the "Best 90%" data also show comparatively high variances.

Actually I'm told Microsoft is following Apple lead and will soon adopt the policy of converting images in the wrong color mode to the correct color mode as Apple's OS does now. Adobe tells me they are prepping for this and because they have no control over the OS they were forced to eliminate the "No Color Management" policy. Again, the null transform trick in CS5 behaves identically to CS3's "No Color Management" as long as it's done right.
Interesting. Can't say that we've heard the same, but Adobe certainly has more extensive NDAs than we do. Windows 8 does not implement the same level of color cluelessness as does OSX. Win 7 initially was slated to support "High Color", a space with sRGB primaries but allowing values outside the [0 .. 1] range. Monitors that supported High Color would map untagged images into their native space, avoiding the wildly oversaturated look that wide-gamut panels can give. That initiative went the way of WCS.

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