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Author Topic: Multi-part real world review of Leica S2  (Read 2225 times)
aboudd
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« on: March 14, 2012, 05:30:23 PM »
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I posted the first installment of the S2 review on my blog - www.everything-foto.blogspot.com. The subject of the first review is ergonomics. As I get more time with the camera I will post some images and other impressions.

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Justin Berman
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 11:27:45 AM »
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Just so you know, the sensors are emphatically *not* the same in the two cameras.

The Leica has a 30x45mm sensor (2:3 ratio) at 37.5 Megapixels.
The Pentax 645D has a 33x44mm sensor (3:4 ratio) at 40 Megapixels.

They are both (I think) made by Kodak though.

Cheers,
Justin
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 01:16:59 PM »
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I guess that depends how you define "same." Is the technology in the KAF-37500 the same as the KAF-40000? Or did Kodak make a better sensor for Pentax?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 01:50:45 PM »
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I guess that depends how you define "same." Is the technology in the KAF-37500 the same as the KAF-40000? Or did Kodak make a better sensor for Pentax?


The KAF-37500 shares the same architecture as the KAF-50100, not the KAF-40000.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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aboudd
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 01:55:16 PM »
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I was told that they were the same, if they are not, so be it. The review is on the S2 and how good or bad it is to work with in a real world situation,  not the 645D.
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 04:53:23 PM »
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I don't care which sensor or not. Where is the 50mm wide-angle or a zoom covering the range between 35mm and 70mm. I don't get the politics behind the leica secret.
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ondebanks
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 05:49:37 PM »
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The KAF-37500 shares the same architecture as the KAF-50100, not the KAF-40000.


Steve Hendrix

1) Please, Steve: what's your source of KAF-37500 information, that allows you to make this emphatic distinction? I can't find technical details of the KAF-37500 anywhere online.

2) While all three are of the same 6-micron Kodak generation, I would expect that the KAF-37500 is more like the KAF-40000 because both have microlenses, while the KAF-50100 does not. In other respects, there's almost nothing between the KAF-40000 and KAF-50100, if you compare the datasheets. Same electronic design, very very similar performance (other than things related to the microlenses).

Ray
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 07:05:41 PM »
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1) Please, Steve: what's your source of KAF-37500 information, that allows you to make this emphatic distinction? I can't find technical details of the KAF-37500 anywhere online.

2) While all three are of the same 6-micron Kodak generation, I would expect that the KAF-37500 is more like the KAF-40000 because both have microlenses, while the KAF-50100 does not. In other respects, there's almost nothing between the KAF-40000 and KAF-50100, if you compare the datasheets. Same electronic design, very very similar performance (other than things related to the microlenses).

Ray

I am making some assumptions - and I do not have un-fettered access to every CCD schematic made by Kodak/Dalsa, I have to search it out (and frankly do not expend a lot of energy in doing so, as my clients are more often interested in the results than the specifications). So no proof, but my supposition is based on my experience with the 3 sensors and my feeling that the results from the 37MP Sensor from the Leica are closer in character to the 50MP KAF50100 than the KAF-40000. Results from the KAF-40000 are more similar to the KAF-31600 (found in P30+/H3D-31/eSprit 65).

Further, the below Kodak PR states the 37500 and 50100 originate from the same CCD platform, but does not mention the 40000. Also, the data sheet from the KAF-50100 stipulates there are no microlenses, which are certainly present on the KAF-40000. I could not locate a data sheet for the KA-37500.


Kodak PR on KAF-37500 & KAF-50100

KAF-31600 Datasheet

KAF-40000

KAF-50100 Datasheet



Steve Hendrix


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Steve Hendrix
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ondebanks
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 05:51:07 AM »
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I am making some assumptions - and I do not have un-fettered access to every CCD schematic made by Kodak/Dalsa, I have to search it out (and frankly do not expend a lot of energy in doing so, as my clients are more often interested in the results than the specifications). So no proof, but my supposition is based on my experience with the 3 sensors and my feeling that the results from the 37MP Sensor from the Leica are closer in character to the 50MP KAF50100 than the KAF-40000. Results from the KAF-40000 are more similar to the KAF-31600 (found in P30+/H3D-31/eSprit 65).

Further, the below Kodak PR states the 37500 and 50100 originate from the same CCD platform, but does not mention the 40000. Also, the data sheet from the KAF-50100 stipulates there are no microlenses, which are certainly present on the KAF-40000. I could not locate a data sheet for the KA-37500.


Kodak PR on KAF-37500 & KAF-50100

KAF-31600 Datasheet

KAF-40000

KAF-50100 Datasheet


Steve Hendrix


So you also can't get a KAF-37500 datasheet...interesting. I hoped that Leica might bestow such blessings on one of their bigger dealers.

I've seen that Kodak press release before, but it doesn't back your assertion that the KAF-37500 + KAF-50100 architecture is somehow different from that of the KAF-40000.

First of all, it does say that "The [KAF-37500] sensor also includes specific design features that optimize its use in the S2 camera, such as the use of microlenses" - thus making it more like the KAF-40000 than the KAF-50100, as I said above. This is one of the few concrete facts we have about the S2 sensor!

Secondly, the only comparison it draws between the KAF-37500 and KAF-50000 is "Both the KAI-50100 and the KAF-37500 Image Sensors are based on the new KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, the company's fourth generation of technology for professional photography. This new platform increases both the resolution and camera performance available for photographers by reducing pixel size and "click-to- capture" time for improved camera response, improving frame rate, lowering power consumption, and improving color fidelity while retaining key performance parameters available from the previous generation of technology.
- But all of that is also true of the KAF-40000.

The press release just doesn't mention the KAF-40000 at all, but that's hardly surprising since none of the new backs/cameras referred to in the release use that sensor.
Absence of a mention doesn't imply a difference.


...based on my experience with the 3 sensors and my feeling that the results from the 37MP Sensor from the Leica are closer in character to the 50MP KAF50100 than the KAF-40000. Results from the KAF-40000 are more similar to the KAF-31600...

Now that's useful information. When you say "results", do you mean colour rendering, high-ISO noise, long exposure noise?

Ray

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 08:04:28 AM »
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So you also can't get a KAF-37500 datasheet...interesting. I hoped that Leica might bestow such blessings on one of their bigger dealers.

I've seen that Kodak press release before, but it doesn't back your assertion that the KAF-37500 + KAF-50100 architecture is somehow different from that of the KAF-40000.

First of all, it does say that "The [KAF-37500] sensor also includes specific design features that optimize its use in the S2 camera, such as the use of microlenses" - thus making it more like the KAF-40000 than the KAF-50100, as I said above. This is one of the few concrete facts we have about the S2 sensor!

Secondly, the only comparison it draws between the KAF-37500 and KAF-50000 is "Both the KAI-50100 and the KAF-37500 Image Sensors are based on the new KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, the company's fourth generation of technology for professional photography. This new platform increases both the resolution and camera performance available for photographers by reducing pixel size and "click-to- capture" time for improved camera response, improving frame rate, lowering power consumption, and improving color fidelity while retaining key performance parameters available from the previous generation of technology.
- But all of that is also true of the KAF-40000.

The press release just doesn't mention the KAF-40000 at all, but that's hardly surprising since none of the new backs/cameras referred to in the release use that sensor.
Absence of a mention doesn't imply a difference.


Now that's useful information. When you say "results", do you mean colour rendering, high-ISO noise, long exposure noise?

Ray




We don't spend a lot of time digesting CCD sensor datasheets. Im sure if we wanted, we could probably have access to whatever CCD data we wish on the products we sell. We have not spent any time hunting or requesting the CCD datasheet from the KAF-37500 CCD. (with the exception of the time on this thread.... Smiley

By results, I mean the high ISO texture or grain appears less like what I have seen from say, a P30+ or the few 645D/H4D/40 files I've seen (creamy smooth) and more like a somewhat better version of say, an IQ140/160full rez high ISO rendering (detailed smooth).



Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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paratom
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 09:21:57 AM »
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I don't care which sensor or not. Where is the 50mm wide-angle or a zoom covering the range between 35mm and 70mm. I don't get the politics behind the leica secret.


Is it a secret that is kind of a new system which is growing step by step?

The zoom is announced.

I believe as of today with 30,35,70,120,180 can be done many things allready. If you need/want 50mm and AF than its obvious  that it can not (yet) be offered by the S-System today.
While the lens setup is maybe not yet fully complete, those lenses are exceptional and I would prefer that Leica continues to put priority on the quality of new lenses.
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ondebanks
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 12:30:03 PM »
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Im sure if we wanted, we could probably have access to whatever CCD data we wish on the products we sell. We have not spent any time hunting or requesting the CCD datasheet from the KAF-37500 CCD. (with the exception of the time on this thread.... Smiley


Then Steve, I would urge you to do just that: please request the KAF-37500 datasheet from Leica/Kodak, and make it available to us here. You would be doing the medium format community a big service! You may not value it for yourself, but believe me, some others do.

By results, I mean the high ISO texture or grain appears less like what I have seen from say, a P30+ or the few 645D/H4D/40 files I've seen (creamy smooth) and more like a somewhat better version of say, an IQ140/160full rez high ISO rendering (detailed smooth).


Interesting; thanks for the detail.

Ray
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