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Author Topic: New 4k Sony  (Read 15668 times)
Hywel
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« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2012, 04:27:42 AM »
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Fun is a vastly under-rated thing!

Playing is one of the most valuable skills humans have. Messing around with something for fun is the key to REALLY understanding and mastering it. There's a reason children spend the first 10 or so years of their lives playing- it is the best way to learn.

I use FCP-X and Aperture rather than Premiere Pro and Lightroom purely because I find them fun to use. They happen to work the way I think, so I use them to play around and experimenting and trying new stuff and seeing what happens just because it is fun. As a result I can find myself at 11 pm editing and thinking "oh damn, where did the evening go?" Whereas with Lightroom I couldn't wait to get the work done and quit it.

I've built a second career out of what was my hobby. Protecting some of the fun that got me into it in the first place is very important (or you could call it protecting my own artistic integrity- same thing). That's actually why I shoot on a Hasselblad MFD and a Scarlet. I shoot for the web- the bean counting decision would have been that a 7D was more than enough for everything I do. It just isn't as satisfying seeing a scene you've spent thousands of pounds and hours of pre-production pop up in the dailies in "good enough" format as it is in "wow, did WE shoot that?" format Smiley Smiley Smiley

By all means invest in tech that does what you absolutely need it to do. But getting stuff you ENJOY using is even more important, and that's something only you can decide, hands-on. Does it think the way you think? Does it say "Shiny! Use me! Play with me!" to you? (And forget what other people think. All that matters is if it is fun for YOU).

Best post of the year, BC!

  Cheers, Hywel.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 04:31:14 AM by Hywel » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2012, 05:04:19 PM »
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Looks like the box is really opening

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7846/canon-to-reveal-4k-cinema-cameras-c500-and-cinema-1d-full-specs

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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billy
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« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2012, 01:56:26 PM »
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"To me since Sony has excellent autofocus and real professional xlr inputs for sound, now they need a simpler menu, a real post processing suite for dailies and most of all affordable fast lenses that work in auto and manual focus that don't cost 12 grand a pop.    Some of that let's you shoot with fun.

I don't care if those e-mount lenses feel lightweight or weigh 5 lbs, but they need to be out there now . . . right now . . . oh yea . . . and be shiny and fun.

IMO

BC"

How about the Sony A lenses with an adaptor, you try that yet? Does the AF still work?




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bcooter
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« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2012, 03:05:26 PM »
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"To me since Sony has excellent autofocus and real professional xlr inputs for sound, now they need a simpler menu, a real post processing suite for dailies and most of all affordable fast lenses that work in auto and manual focus that don't cost 12 grand a pop.    Some of that let's you shoot with fun.

I don't care if those e-mount lenses feel lightweight or weigh 5 lbs, but they need to be out there now . . . right now . . . oh yea . . . and be shiny and fun.

IMO

BC"

How about the Sony A lenses with an adaptor, you try that yet? Does the AF still work?






I do have two A mount lenses that are fast though the adapter I have only allows for Iris control.  There is suppose to be an autofocus adpapter and firmware upgrade soon.

IMO

BC
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billy
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« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2012, 08:41:31 PM »
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sony fs700 test:

http://vimeo.com/40369782

the autofocus looks pretty darn useable.

they also speak of the berger electronic focus puller being used with it. anyone ever use one? do you track with a finger on  an external wireless monitor?
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bcooter
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« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2012, 05:22:09 AM »
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sony fs700 test:

http://vimeo.com/40369782

the autofocus looks pretty darn useable.

they also speak of the berger electronic focus puller being used with it. anyone ever use one? do you track with a finger on  an external wireless monitor?

Real men don't autofocus  . . . right?  I  heard that back in the still photography days and I resisted it out of some kind of macho thing, until I used a camera like the Nikon that could virtually hit autofocus on 90% of the imagery.

Then you sent hmm, this is nice.

The two downsides to the Sony autofocus is you have to keep the main subject somewhat close to the center.  It does seem to track a little off center once the subject is moving but once the subject gets far right/fat left it pulls the background.

It would be great if sony had adjustable focus points like a still camera or even better a moveable focus point like a scarlet where you could track focus, or even beter than that, real face recognition like those tiny nikon point and shoots.

Anyway.

The second downside to the fs autofocus is your doing a shot wide open and the subject is moving to the camera in a left to right, (or right to left motion) and once the subject passes, it will pull to the background.

Motion cameras autofocus is not generally set up to snap focus so it doesn't just slam the background into focus once the subject passes, but it does go fast enough to be noticeable, which takes the viewer to the background expecting something to be there.

The best way around this is to have your hand on the manual/auto focus of the lens and click it to manual once the subject is still in frame but right before it exits.   It doesn't take a lot of practice with this.

The autofocus with a subject coming towards you with a long lens is very good, as long as you have a clear view.  A field is easy, a busy new york street isn't.

Where the FS series shines is if your tracking with the subject in some moving device, whether it's a dolly or a low budget wheelchair.  You get a great look, the subjects can stop turn, do normal things other than walk at a constant speed and look realistic.  For these situations it's great.

Now if your going to manually pull focus without an expert focus puller I strongly suggest those tiny Zeiss Nikon mount lenses.    The throw is short, even for long distance movement, like 1/4 block away to full face and since the lens turn is about 1/4 to 1/2 of an inch in rotation, it takes usually one of two practice runs and your brain will lock in.  Those tiny Ziess still lenses look really tiny on something like an R-1 but they are scary sharp and so well built there is no slop in the focusing, so even someone new to film making can pick this up in a few minutes.

What I think all motion cameras need is some kind of image stabilization controlled by the body, rather than the lens (for practical reasons.  It's really amazing how it smooths a shot out without that hand held see sick up and down movement you get in walking, or that floaty steadicam look which works well on some projects but kind of floats so much it seems to take some of the realism out of the shot.  (just an opinion).

What I don't understand is why there isn't some kind of third party infrared focus puller that allows a second person to point at a subject and that is relayed to the camera to hold just one subject in focus, (like the long lens type of shot of a person walking down a busy NY street).

Maybe that is technically not possible.

Regardless the FS 700 looks like a pretty good deal, the slow mo if not overused is nice, though it also needs time lapse which is a ver nice way to insert a background scene into a video piece. 

The built in ND's are worth the bump in price, though Sony needs to add a bunch of constant F stop e-mount lenses yesterday, and/or get that new adapter and firmware out that allows their full range of A mount lenses to autofocus easily (especially with image stabilization).

IMO

BC

P.S.  I like this guys little test and he showed that good footage can be obtained without a crew of 20.  Still I would love to see a real test or report where there is serious money on the line $30,000 or so with client's impossible schedules and budget concerns.  Also follow the footage from pre pro to final output.

That's the stuff that everyone really wants to know, before putting down the 10 grand worth of camera gear.  IMO
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2012, 05:53:33 AM »
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Focus - 1993 - my hero sports photographer (David Ashdown) - famed for single frames with an FM2 and manually pulling a 400

I managed to get a place next to him at the ground - a pile of nikon  f4 and AF lenses - lesson learned

The FS700 has face tracking and that update may come to the Fs100 too in firmware.

Because SonCanon listen to dumbass Hollywood there is no decent AF yet

You need the lot - multiple areas - noted on screen , range (stops hunting) , programmable pulls (EX1 has this) , click to manual.. all on a pistol grip with good ergonomics

Coots - I don't know if you have seen this.. cinetape on most cine cameras in the 'wood
http://www.cinemaelec.com/products/cinetapemeasure.php
Only $20g, various systems are under development to make it talk to the lens (via external motor) - all expensive and will be a spaghetti of wires and power issues

The makers don't seem to have aderssed 50 at 2 in any way yet!

As for stabillizing a camera - Id be interested to see your rig - a longer heavier more spread out rig (http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=98&Itemid=1) has INTERTIA that brings stability - or at least kills jitter

When you run down the road with a ladder it mainly points in the same direction.. INERTIA .. one thing Mr Halibut has right.. alwats a long rig on the shoulder

S




« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 06:01:17 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2012, 06:01:11 AM »
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Real men don't autofocus  . . . right?  

I think that real men autofocus when they're sure autofocus will give them more accuracy than their real men habilities.

If in stills it's generally the case, I think in motion we're not there yet.

I read your post and the list of "buts" and "ifs" is still quite big enough.

All AF systems should be transparent, like any automatic pilot in a plane. Once you touch the focussing ring you should be abble to be in manual without having to press any button. It should be instant.
The problem is that those AF lenses thought to be AF are geerally hell when it comes to use them in manual config.
The ring is loose and not precise, the touch is plastic feeling and the turning range inoperative.

I think a skilled operator in most situation has a better accuracy than any AF system in motion to date.

It's all about training IMO.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 06:03:03 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2012, 06:03:44 AM »
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I think a skilled operators in most situation has a better accuracy than any AF system in motion to date.

The FS100 with a tele and the subject closing in - tech is best - I am sure .. its even working in the trees !

But the macho men dont want to know - thats why we "no rules" stills people have an advantage

https://vimeo.com/28015947

S

« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 06:08:06 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2012, 06:10:47 AM »
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08
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bcooter
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« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2012, 07:06:11 AM »
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Sure they're some ifs and buts, but most of the time the AF autofocus works very well and has less oops moments that a good dedicated focus puller.

It also allows for more spontaneous shooting.

With all due respect, your not a producer.   Adding one crew member for us is not the day cost, it's catering, parking, changing the permit rates if you go over a certain amount of people, airfare, hotels . . . you get the idea.

Just give me the autofocus on a lowly nkion D3 and it would save an hour a day and a lot of money.

I use a very good focus puller and he misses it 30% of the time.  Luckily focus on motion is not as critical in viewing as focus on stills, but watch a movie, big budget and look at how tack sharp it is (it isn't).  We're suppose to be in a technology advanced world and we're focusng with wheels, tape marks and measuring tapes.  

I don't buy into the macho man I can focus an eyelash at 300 yards.  A friend of mine who is an old world famous photographer from the Avedon era says that he's never seen a "great" still photograph in focus.   I somewhat believe him.  

I mean go to a still set and you'll hear the photographer turn and say to the tech, "is it in, is it in" and that's for studio flash F11 images.

I don't agree with the autopilot analogy, because focusing has nothing to do with the art of framing, directing, lighting, mood, storytelling, etc.  It's just a technical excercize that we sometimes use to shift the story line from one subject to the next, but it shouldn't be such a big damn deal.

I agree with Morgan.   They listen to Hollywood (usually union guys) rather than the 90% that are actually going to buy, not rent these cameras.

Sometimes I'm the director, sometimes the dp/director, sometimes the dp/director/gaffer/focus puller editor and colorist but the most important role I have is co-producer, because we work from a bottom line and we want to turn all the profit we can.

Right or wrong, if I could do this gig with one person, I would.

IMO

BC

P.S.   I believe that if Sony markets the FS700 right and I mean really markets it rather than the way they usually advertise and sell stuff, they could eat Canon's lunch with this camera.  Once again, they just have to get the lenses and that raw file box out there now.  They also need to make stuff available without the secret RED handshake, or the Canon list of 30 cameras to do one job.

P.S. 2  - I love shooting with spontaneous and loathe locked down, walk to the spot, say your lines shots.  It's hard to make motion look good and look real.  I love it when people are in motion, those unplanned moments where they laugh, turn their head, walk faster, look like real people not actors that stand in a spot and give a monolog.

That's why you see so much better imagery MOS than you ever do in dialog . . . or usually.  In other words I like it to look like fun and even better I love to work when it's fun.


I think that real men autofocus when they're sure autofocus will give them more accuracy than their real men habilities.

If in stills it's generally the case, I think in motion we're not there yet.

I read your post and the list of "buts" and "ifs" is still quite big enough.

All AF systems should be transparent, like any automatic pilot in a plane. Once you touch the focussing ring you should be abble to be in manual without having to press any button. It should be instant.
The problem is that those AF lenses thought to be AF are geerally hell when it comes to use them in manual config.
The ring is loose and not precise, the touch is plastic feeling and the turning range inoperative.

I think a skilled operator in most situation has a better accuracy than any AF system in motion to date.

It's all about training IMO.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 07:48:47 AM by bcooter » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2012, 08:54:05 AM »
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James.

The plane analogy was strictly focussed on autofocus (no pun), not on framing or moods. In AF config, you end to know, as you pointed well, when it's gona be fooled and can anticipate manually. So I don't see why we should have to press a button to enabled-disable MF when it can be done (the OM AF lenses for ex) just using the ring as if it was in MF. The moment you use the ring the camera "understands" that you are taking things under control.
But that also implies that those AF lenses would have a proper focussing ring, precise in use, wich is generally not the case.

On the producer. Of course I know that it is always easy to speak when one does not write the checks, although I'm aware of what it means because I have access to the costs. I understand you. But I've seen many cameramen operating without focus-puller and manually focussing. In professional broadcast most cameramen are skilled enough to have a great level of accuracy in MF config. They don't need follow focus nor assistant. You know that as well if not better as me. I've seen it many times. So we also should recognize that there are some skilled and practises involved in the process. The problem could be asked the other way. If you say: I'm writing the checks and if I can reduce the crew I'm happy, it could be also asked the other way: who's operating the motion camera? Both lead to the same results, one is acheived by a tech that isn't really there yet, the other is acheived by a high skilled cameraman and it's a lot of practise.

About focussing acuracy, yeah, motion forgives more than stills to some extend. But the "I've never seen a great still photograph in focus", it's partly truth but it's very much a mundaine fashionable sentence like every respected master have in their magic hat to have things to say on interviews or parties so people feel they are even greater. You're an old cat enough in this high-end business to know those things very well and I actually know you beleive it with a smile.

But the most important is what you point in the end, and there I coincide: "I love to work when it's fun".

Me too.
  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:10:16 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2012, 09:10:13 AM »
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But I've seen many cameramen operating without focus-puller and manually focussing. In professional broadcast most cameramen are skilled enough to have a great level of accuracy in MF config.

With a 2/3 chip maybe - or F11 - really S35 or larger chip and F2-4 is not something most broadcast camera people do

Using such large chips in motion outside of formal drama is a very new game since 2009 - and those who pretend they can play it are liars (apart from me:) )

Most cameras dont even have beyond SD monitoring so even a genius cannot know what is sharp when recording 1080 let alone 4k

Its the same with 22mp stills - I just cant see 22mp in a GG finder - its either AF or guess work

Actually the main thing that makes most TV people able to focus is the very weak and loose framing - some of those bike shots I linked earlier the wheel is half filling the frame - getting focus on that is im sure virtually impossilbe even for the best Hollywood puller

S


« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:15:10 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2012, 09:17:04 AM »
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I couldn't disagree more, again.

Here in madrid I know a 30' years in business cameraman at the highest level. He shooted for Broadcast and cine and runs his own prod house for the fun because he erans a lot of money as dp. The guy is old now, and you could think that his vision is not as accurate... I've coincide on set with him not a long time ago. He shoots also a 5D2 with manual Scheinder lenses (still lenses). He shooted drama and action without assistant, without a follow-focus but with a 7" monitor on a very reduced rig, focussing manually his Schneider lenses like a photographer. And his grade of accurate focussing and keepers is absolutly stunning. It's all about the experience on the craft. Don't fool yourself there.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2012, 09:22:04 AM »
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Yes and no.

You must agree with me that he cannot be using his eyes to do it

the 5d only puts out 480px so the best one can resolve off the any monitor with the 5d is 480px - which is 1/4 of 1080

So he is guessing 3/4 of the pixels - you cant argue with that because its technical fact

Now he may have developed a very good feel with the lenses to focus 'blind' which is what film people do - but he cant be seeing it on the monitor

The FS100 gives 720 to the monitor - so I can see twice as good as anyone with a 5d (2) - its why I hate the 5d2 as an A camera

Of course there are great artists out there - esp the old guys !

S

« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:25:45 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2012, 09:27:10 AM »
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I agree that the 5d is crap on that aspect. The precision of the GH2 for ex is much higher.(also 720)

Yes, of course, those foxes are intuying, they smell things, they anticipate. No doubt. It's exactly the same with a painter. They end to work almost "blind", they have the experience behind. The way they hang the gear, etc...
You know immediatly if a cameraman is experienced just the way they hang the camera.

There are also lenses that help a lot to MF with precision and others that complicate it and make it more uncertain.  
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:31:49 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #76 on: April 15, 2012, 09:33:59 AM »
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For sure - Im obsessive with finding lenses with the right feel - and no sony that I have handled is in that category - in fact only a very few AF lenses at all

its silly because Im lumping around the sony kit lens 18-200 and manuals 18, 35-70 and an 18-70 and a 100-300 in my bag number one (not to mention my 'prime bag')

if there was good alternative Id prefer less lenses - but each of those has a specific job

sony lens - ultra RnG or 200mm with Af and stabilisation
18 - nice straight wides
35-70 interviews with wonderful focus feel
18-70 better range for RnG but the focus ring is not as good as the pure manual

a 19-90 of suitable quality (see other thread) I would be a one lens man..

S
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 09:41:10 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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ziocan
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« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2012, 10:58:07 AM »
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In focus or tack sharp could be 2 different things.
At the end of the day, for the viewer, the client, the Hollywood producer, the art directors that does not look at lens test on vimeo, "in focus" is plenty good even when it is not "tack sharp".

"Tack sharp" on the beautiful Olivia Wilde face, on House TV shows, was not always pleasant. since you could tell the make up patch covering up the occasional little pimple on her chin.

So the old guy that focus by hand and get his stuff in focus, at the end of the day get his job done on the best possible way, despite the canon 5d external monitor resolution cannot prove it was tack sharp.
At the end of the day who cares... When it is in focus, it is in focus. Wink


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bcooter
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« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2012, 11:21:29 AM »
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Nobody's asking me, but if I had the digital motion camera I wanted it would be the form factor of my Contax still cameras, which are not much different than the Sony fs100 or the Scarlet, except.

I'd want real shutter knobs and real F stops on the lenses.  All lenses would have image stabilization, the menus would be much simpler to navigate and I'd like a larger frame size than Super 35, probably around 24 x36 or maybe slightly larger.  I'd want a square sensor so I could easily set any crop I wanted from vertical to 16x9, 1:85, 2 to 1, square, etc.

I'd like the lenses as sharp as my Contax, and as solid.

Today I spent my one day off messing with the Scarlet, reading the ops manual, watching tutorials and though I still think the Scarlet is a work in progress, just setting shutter speed, iris, WB, iso, and sound settings is totally non intuative.  I don't mind learning new tech, but on the Scarlet there are about 10 places on the touch screen and the handle and the red mote (if it was shipping) to make any setting and everytime you turn it back on, something changes.

It's virtually impossible to remember all of these.  The Sony is slightly easier but requires a very light touch to move any dial or setting and it's not a camera you ever pick up with a full hand grip, because you'll almost always touch something you shouldn't.

I know these new motion cameras do amazing things, but man the learning curve on operations is steep.

IMO

BC
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Bern Caughey
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« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2012, 06:07:52 PM »
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I always thought the Sony was an insult to ergonomics, but now the handle is relocatable I could see working with one.

http://vimeo.com/40527844

Slap a TVLogic EVF on the front, & you've got a proper, yet compact, package.
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