Hasselblad H1/H2 or Phase One 645 AF

[pjtn]

I'm trying to make a tough decision right now. My goal is to print 30" x 30" B&W long exposure landscape photographs for fine art purposes. It's been difficult trying to work out a medium format system which will do this and that I can afford.

I've narrowed it down to two:

- Hasselblad H1/H2 with P30+ and H series lenses
- Phase One 645 AF with P30+ and Phase One lenses

If I choose to get the Hasselblad H1/H2 option I will later on upgrade to a Hasselblad H4D-40. If I choose the Phase One option I will later on get a P45+ and at some point the 645DF body.

Another thing that I need to consider is using Capture One in the beginning with both options, I want to learn how to use it well, organise my photos and not need to change later. Lightroom doesn't seem to do well with Phase One files but a work around would be to export as DNG from Capture One and import into Lightroom from there.

I have not handled the Phase One system and will not get a chance to. I've heard the body is not as well made as the Hasselblad's, can anyone confirm this? How are the lenses made? I hate the feeling of cheap things, especially when it cost as much as this.

This is somewhat of a ramble, I'm curious to hear what other people might think if they where in the same position?

[JV]

As far as the camera is concerned the Hasselblad H2 wins hands down in my opinion.

If you want to keep the ability to shoot film (which unfortunately neither the H4D-40 or 645DF will give you) you could also upgrade to the H4X.

As far as lenses is concerned I am not sure whether there is lot of difference between the two brands.  One thing perhaps to consider, if you are on a tight budget, is the larger availability of Hasselblad lenses on the used market (a quick check on eBay showed 69 Hasselblad HC lenses versus 9 Phase One lenses). 

FYI, I currently have H1/H2/H4X bodies and a P30+ back.

[lance_schad]

I would recommend the Phase One AF / Mamiya 645 AFDIII solution vs the Hasselblad for lens choices and shutter speed since you are planning to do landscape work.

With the PhaseOne/Mamiya body you have access to not only the new PhaseOne/Mamiya D lenses but a plethora of legacy glass.

I actually just did a quick ebay search and did a search on Mamiya 645 Lenses and came up with over 120 items.

Keep in mind that the Hasselblad H lenses are all Leaf Shutter designs with a max shutter speed of 1/800 vs the Mamiya system employs a Focal Plane Shutter which has a max shutter speed of 1/4000. This can make a big difference when shooting landscapes in a sunny environment when you do not wish to use ND filters.

Also if you need to replace the shutter in the Hasselblad lens it will set you back about $700+.

Both systems can utilize legacy V-series lenses . The H adapter is more expensive than the Phase/Mamiya adapter.

Yes I work for a Phase One / Mamiya reseller, but we offer used solutions of all platforms. I routinely sell used H solutions when we have them available and they are fine systems, but finding used ones in good condition are becoming more of an issue.

You cannot go wrong with either solution, but you will have a greater lens selection on the Phase One / Mamiya platform, it's a fact.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Lance Schad

[Doug Peterson]

A DNG (in this context) is a raw file. You don't process to a DNG, you simply repackage the raw data into a DNG container.

The "magic" of Capture One happens when you use Capture One's math to process the image. If you instead tell C1 not to process the data but simply repackage it as a DNG raw file, and then open it in LightRoom you will have bypassed all the math of C1. Especially for long exposures this will mean lower image quality.

[henrikfoto]

I think you will be more happy with the Hasselblad body. It's just a better body than the Phase.
I also feel the mirror is softer when it moves, with less wibrations. But you might lock up the mirror anyway.
Hopefully Phase will show us a better body this year...

The lenses on the other hand is not as sharp as the new Phase LS. But with the smaller sensor
on the P30 you will not see a lot of differense. Build quality of the Phase lenses are just as good as
Hasselblad HC, even if the HC lenses look more impressive.

Henrik

[pjtn]

I suppose another factor to throw in is the price. The Hasselblad will cost around $8800 by the time it hits my door whereas the Phase One will cost around $10,800.

There's enough difference between those two cameras to purchase a new tripod and head (which I need to do), or Lightroom and Photoshop (which I also need to do).

Another factor is that I've seen second hand H4D-40 cameras going for less than second hand P45+ backs. When it comes time to upgrade the Hasselblad I would have a new camera and back whereas the P45+ I would have still have an old body and also being out of pocket more.

There are some differences that I've noticed between Capture One and Lightroom's editing. In Lightroom the sky is smooth and noise free, Capture One seems to be blocky and noisy. Whereas Lightroom has awful jagged edges on some some of the straight lines in a photo. Lightroom also seems to clip the blacks quite harshly losing shadow detail.

When it comes to usability of the two programs I find Lightroom easier but that may be familiarity. I like it in Lightroom how I can press the option key on some settings and get a mask to show what I'm editing.

[pjtn]

To give an idea of what I'm experiencing here is a screen grab of the sky, Capture One on left, Lightroom on right:



And here are the jagged edges, Capture One on left, Lightroom on Right:

[Doug Peterson]

Looks like you need to turn up color noise reduction in C1 (yes I realize you're converting to black and white, just give it a try and let me know what you find). After you do that, depending on your output and personal aesthetics you may find a fine grain setting of 20-30 pleasant. Once you do that you should find the rendering better (granted it is personal what is "better" ) than the image you posted from LR which exhibits the ugly low-frequency "wonky" noise blobbing that I personally find very disruptive.

Default noise reduction and sharpening settings in C1 aren't always what you might want them at. Fortunately it takes only a few minutes to tweak the settings and either save as a base style or save as defaults.

[pjtn]

I've had a good play around with the noise reduction and that doesn't seem to help. I even pushed the sliders all the way to the right but nothing changed. The effect is less noticeable in colour, it looks more like the file is in a low bit rate (they where both in 16 bit).

This is a hard call because the software seems to be nearly as important as the camera itself. I don't particularly want to start using one program and change over later down the track when I upgrade.

Capture one certainly shows finer detail but the sky confuses me. It has an unusual rendering of some other parts of the image too.

Here's a screen grab of how they render branches in the sky, Capture One on left Lightroom on right:



I'm not sure why the Capture One rendering is so odd, the Lightroom one is better but still has those awful jagged edges.

[Doug Peterson]

Could you send me a raw file for me to play with? Your samples posted here don't jibe with my experience, but there are all sorts of reasons that could be (including me being in error!).

I'll send you a link to our (free) file-uploading service by pm.

[pjtn]

I'm going to be shooting square format so would like to mask the viewfinder to a square. My idea was to cut a black piece of card down to size and put it in the viewfinder. I'm quite sure this will work with the Hasselblad, does anyone know if it would be possible with the Phase One 645AF?

[ghoonk]

I would recommend the Phase One AF / Mamiya 645 AFDIII solution vs the Hasselblad for lens choices and shutter speed since you are planning to do landscape work.

With the PhaseOne/Mamiya body you have access to not only the new PhaseOne/Mamiya D lenses but a plethora of legacy glass.

I actually just did a quick ebay search and did a search on Mamiya 645 Lenses and came up with over 120 items.

Keep in mind that the Hasselblad H lenses are all Leaf Shutter designs with a max shutter speed of 1/800 vs the Mamiya system employs a Focal Plane Shutter which has a max shutter speed of 1/4000. This can make a big difference when shooting landscapes in a sunny environment when you do not wish to use ND filters.

Also if you need to replace the shutter in the Hasselblad lens it will set you back about $700+.

Both systems can utilize legacy V-series lenses . The H adapter is more expensive than the Phase/Mamiya adapter.

Yes I work for a Phase One / Mamiya reseller, but we offer used solutions of all platforms. I routinely sell used H solutions when we have them available and they are fine systems, but finding used ones in good condition are becoming more of an issue.

You cannot go wrong with either solution, but you will have a greater lens selection on the Phase One / Mamiya platform, it's a fact.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Lance Schad

Lance,

You missed the fact that Hasselblad has a HTS 1.5 unit that basically brings tilt and shift capabilities to the 28, 35, 50, 80, 100 primes on the H system, with full tilt, shift and rotation readouts in the H body. The max shutter speed of 1/800 was a consideration working against the H system when I was considering my purchase between the H and the Phase One system, and I had purchased the H over the PO for two reasons - True Focus (which works) and better ergonomics (subjective, but I prefer the H over the PO for this)

The fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Hasselblad H shooters around the world producing work for editorial, billboards, fine art and other fields indicates that the difference in lens performance (as you claim) does not play as large a part as some people would like us to believe.

On the topic of legacy glass, some points worth noting, something I noted from observation and discussion with peers and friends who shoot both systems - having legacy (read: cheap) glass as an option is great. Yet time and time, there are discussions about 'how much better' the new lenses are. Most people I know end up either buying the legacy glass and eventually move on to the D or LS lenses, leaving them to either shelve the legacy glass or go through the hassle of selling it off, and this is especially so when they move up to better sensors and are led to believe that the old glass just isn't as good.

if anything, here are the facts that I had considered between the H and PO systems:

- Phase One, with the right digital back and strobes, will allow you to shoot at 1/1600s on the leaf shutter. Hasselblad is limited to 1/800s
- Phase One will give you 1/4000s shutter speeds, while Hasselblad is limited to 1/800.
- Phase One requires a separate battery pack for the body (6 AA batteries) and back, as opposed to Hasselblad's one-battery solution that powers the back AND the body.
- Phase One lacks True Focus, something I have found useful when shooting portraits and macro. Not a killer feature for most, but I have found it useful
- Hasselblad has the HTS accessory - adds 1.5x teleconversion, x1.3 to aperture, tilt/shift/rotation to the primes. Useful for landscapes and architecture, portraits and product shots. I have not seen such an accessory for PO systems. I am, however, aware of a 50mm shift (no tilt) lens for the PO, a 'legacy' design, as Lance would put it.
- The H4D-40, at ISO1600, shoots remarkably clean. I don't use it all the time, but it's nice to know that it's there when I need it.
- The H4D-40 can shoot long exposures to 256s. The P45+ can go to 1 hour, but I'm told it needs another hour to shoot a black slide. The Hasselblad does not require a black slide, i just shoot the next frame as soon as my current one is done.

I've basically kept my selection simple - I buy a lens that works with the back and stick with it. Clearly others before me have been able to create amazing work from either system, so I'm not thoroughly convinced that the system is the limiting factor at the moment. With Hasselblad, my lens selections are simple where focal length is concerned. The only decisions to make are whether to go for the ver 2 of the 50 and 120 lenses, and I am told the 50-II is much sharper in the corners as opposed to the original 50. Ditto for the 120, but the price premium isn't something I am bothered to pay for at this point in time (the 50-II sells in the used market for $4k, while the original 50 sells for slightly over half that; likewise, the 120-II is around $1.5k more in the used market as compared to its predecessor).

While I respect the PO system, I went for the H system in the end not because it was technically better or worse, but it simply felt better to work with, all things considered. Again, I stress that considering how many professionals around the world shoot with either system, you can't go wrong with either of these.

[Wayne Fox]

I'm trying to make a tough decision right now. My goal is to print 30" x 30" B&W long exposure landscape photographs for fine art purposes. It's been difficult trying to work out a medium format system which will do this and that I can afford.

I've narrowed it down to two:

- Hasselblad H1/H2 with P30+ and H series lenses
- Phase One 645 AF with P30+ and Phase One lenses

If I choose to get the Hasselblad H1/H2 option I will later on upgrade to a Hasselblad H4D-40. If I choose the Phase One option I will later on get a P45+ and at some point the 645DF body.

How "long" is long.  This may be a non-factor because I"m not sure how well the H backs do but most digital backs don't do long exposures very well (by long I'm talking many minutes).  the p45+ is one of those backs that does do long exposures, up to an hour.

so I just thought I'd mention it, could be the H40 is also great at long exposures - I let someone that knows clarify that.

I've used both bodies (in fact I still have a full H1 setup with about 4 lenses, no back that I've thought of selling but am also considering upgrading the the H4X and then putting a p45+ back on it).  The Mamiya's cryptic setup for "custom" functions is a pain, but after you figure it out once it's fine.  It's a simpler camera to use (for me) I shoot mainly on manual, I have the 3 custom setups to change things like f/stop increments etc. so I can get around with it quite quickly.However, I didn't mind the hasselblad, the menu system is clear enough and after some time it's easy to shoot with as well.

The hasselblad is better if you want to put a telephoto on, the mamiya 300 is very difficult to shoot with because of the focal plane shutter bounce.  It's always bothered me a little, because if it's bouncing on a long lens, you know it's still bouncing on a wider lens, maybe not enough to "see" but perhaps enough to compromise quality just a little.  a lot of the phase shooters end up with tech cameras (which is something you may want to consider) because of the improvement in sharpness.  I know tech camera lenses are better, but have wondered if the shutter slap were ever resolved if there would be an improvement in even some of the wider phase/mamiya glass. Even the current Phase/Schneider LS lenses don't eliminate this because the focal plane shutter still operates in conjunction with the leaf shutter. Currently the DF cannot close the leaf shutter then open the focal plane shutter and lock up the mirror.  The LS lenses really are only helping those that need faster sync speeds with flash.  From everything I've heard this is something they can't fix with the DF body so it won't happen until Phase/mamiya get a new body introduced.

[EricWHiss]

I'm always amazed when I read people would actually choose the DF body over something else.  IMHO its the worst camera I've ever shot.  Now the mamiya lenses are cheaper and if you had a limited budget then maybe its the choice you have to make.   Regarding the noise in the phase files, you could get that grain by having a very low sharpening threshold value, the grain setting up high, or the color noise reduction not set very high.  I've never really used the default setting in capture one for noise.  I almost always set the luminance lower and the color higher than the defaults.

[JV]

a lot of the phase shooters end up with tech cameras (which is something you may want to consider) because of the improvement in sharpness. 

there even appears to be a new trend, people selling their DF bodies to buy additional tech camera lenses

[rueyloon]

Couple of points to share

1) I've handled the H3 and I think handling is definitely superior to the Mamiya.
But each new lens from the Hasselblad is going to cost you a bomb. I think you can
even start a new small photography company from scratch with that money.

2) I'm kinda curious about the love for tech cameras. I use one here, but I hate it here.
it is probably due to the tropical heat and working so slowly under the sun. With sweat
coming down your eyes and the harsh sun, it is hard squint and focus.

[ghoonk]

Couple of points to share

1) I've handled the H3 and I think handling is definitely superior to the Mamiya.
But each new lens from the Hasselblad is going to cost you a bomb. I think you can
even start a new small photography company from scratch with that money.

2) I'm kinda curious about the love for tech cameras. I use one here, but I hate it here.
it is probably due to the tropical heat and working so slowly under the sun. With sweat
coming down your eyes and the harsh sun, it is hard squint and focus.

Each new lens will cost a bomb - a subjective statement there. We are not comparing apples for apples here. Clearly a lens from 15 years ago would cost a lot less than a lens currently produced, not to mention that the older lenses lack AF. Again, there are those who would argue that the older glass designs do not stand up well to high resolution digital backs. A fairer comparison would be to compare pricing of the current Hasselblad HC and HCD lenses with the Phase One LS lenses (the D and pre-D lenses lack a leaf shutter). I would concur that the older pre-D lenses aren't bad, and are available at pretty good prices, but limited to 1/125s flash syncs. Not a problem for landscape shooters, and Jack over in the other forum did a comparison and shared his views on the various M/PO glass

I'm with you on the tech camera - I have a Horseman SWD-II Pro and hardly use it over the Hasselblad. Just doesn't suit the way I shoot.

[Graham Welland]

there even appears to be a new trend, people selling their DF bodies to buy additional tech camera lenses

To be fair, the reason is typically that the folks are only shooting their tech cameras and so are selling the DF's because they aren't seeing use for many months, added to the fact that wide angle technical camera lenses coat a shed load of money.

[vampire]

Hi,
Over the past 5 years I've gone from a Hassy V w/aptus 17, to a AFD/aptus 22, upgraded to the DF and recently to an H1/P30+ and just upgrade to the H4x last week. I was never REALLY happy with the DF. It was fine, but for a $5000 body, just wasn't close to worth the money. I started out with the mamiya legacy lenses, but you really need the LS lenses for the maximum sharpness. The LS 80 was extremely sharp. The only exception was the MF macro, I think I had the first version that is fully auto except for the focus. That lens was also extremely sharp. But those lenses are the same price as new hasselblad ones. You can find a good amount of used HC lenses floating around. My favorite is the 100 2.2. I'm very happy with my Hasselbkad setup and the H1 was just a great, solidly built camera. I'm really excited with the H4x upgrade and can't wait to use it next week. I do wish that I had just gone with an H1 originally, instead of going through 3-4 different cameras to get to this point. But having done all that, I do know that this is the best option for me. I would highly recommend the h1/2 over the PO 645af and even the DF.

And just to clarify a point about replacing a Hassy lens shutter for $800, the Phase one/mamiya LS lens shutter replacements cost more than that.

[John R Smith]

And just to clarify a point about replacing a Hassy lens shutter for $800, the Phase one/mamiya LS lens shutter replacements cost more than that.

You shouldn't really ever need to replace an in-lens shutter. I'm using 40 and 50-year old Compur shutters and they just keep rolling along, with a CLA every so often.

John