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Author Topic: 25mm 645D lens vs D800  (Read 14118 times)
BJL
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« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2012, 08:44:46 AM »
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... So, I predict a new state of the art successor of the 645D to appear within an year with the following characteristics:

- New sensor, the same 44x33 mm in size sensor in a CMOS incarnation ...
The biggest mystery to me is if and when good CMOS sensors (say with on-sensor ADC as used by Sony, Nikon and in some Panasonic sensors) will become available for formats larger than 36x24mm. Maybe if Pentax develops a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved, this can offer the economies of scale needed to get a sensor maker to produce such a product.

I am not holding my breath though.
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tsjanik
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« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2012, 10:45:05 AM »
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Should we have a betting pool on its price and sensor size?

I will go for the same 44x33mm format and a price about the same or modestly lower ...  with an outside chance of a bigger sensor in a body more expensive than the current 645D but less expensive that any competitors with that same sensor size.

I don’t have any extra money for betting – I spent it on camera gear  Grin
Increasing the MP count in the 44x33mm sensor is going to stress the old film lenses, most of which are very good at the current pixel density.  My preference would be a larger sensor, which for me also removes the need for a 25mm; 35mm is as wide as I need in the 645 format.
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2012, 02:25:07 PM »
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The biggest mystery to me is if and when good CMOS sensors (say with on-sensor ADC as used by Sony, Nikon and in some Panasonic sensors) will become available for formats larger than 36x24mm. Maybe if Pentax develops a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved, this can offer the economies of scale needed to get a sensor maker to produce such a product.

I am not holding my breath though.

The way I see it Pentax already developed "a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved" with the 645D and when production will halt the total will most likely pass 15K or even 20K units. That is without Pentax being a complete system by any means. I suspect that an updated camera launched in let's say 2013 could aim for at least the same numbers if not (a lot) more. I know it costs millions to develop such a sensor and most likely thousand(s) to make it but it is one thing o divide that to let's say 5K sensors and another thing to 20K.

I don't know about holding one's breath or not  Smiley but what I know for sure is that Ricoh will rain down money over Pentax (monsoon style) the deluge started some time ago and the first results will appear soon. In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if they order (or even design themselves and hire a manufacturer) a modern CMOS sensor if they feel like there are benefits in long time.

Best regards,
Radu

P.S. Don't forget that Pentax could wipe out one of their biggest drawback in the industry with one move if they will come out with a CMOS global shutter sensor. Then all their less expensive, less bulky lenses will get an instant update to "leaf shutter flash sync" greatness. That reason alone is worth the money put in the project IMO. Plus Live View, CDAF, movie mode, improved battery life as equally hefty bonuses for other people.
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Lacunapratum
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« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2012, 09:22:27 PM »
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I'd love to see a 645 mirrorless full-frame in addition to continuation of the 44x33 645D perhaps at higher resolution. 
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tsjanik
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« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2012, 06:42:03 AM »
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The way I see it Pentax already developed "a somewhat higher volume, lower priced sector of the DMF market than other brands have achieved" with the 645D and when production will halt the total will most likely pass 15K or even 20K units. That is without Pentax being a complete system by any means. I suspect that an updated camera launched in let's say 2013 could aim for at least the same numbers if not (a lot) more. I know it costs millions to develop such a sensor and most likely thousand(s) to make it but it is one thing o divide that to let's say 5K sensors and another thing to 20K.

The initial sales of the 645D were mostly to customers with an existing supply of 645 lenses or those who had access on the used market.  Unless the 645DII is a compelling improvement over the original e.g., full or nearly full frame, many of those customers will be lost to new sales, and attracting new users without concurrent improvement in lens availability (at least in North America) doesn’t seem likely.

Quote
I don't know about holding one's breath or not  Smiley but what I know for sure is that Ricoh will rain down money over Pentax (monsoon style) the deluge started some time ago and the first results will appear soon. In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if they order (or even design themselves and hire a manufacturer) a modern CMOS sensor if they feel like there are benefits in long time.

How do you know Ricoh is raining money?  What will be the results you refer to?  I hope you're correct.

Tom
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 07:37:15 AM by tsjanik » Logged
Radu Arama
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« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2012, 08:04:05 AM »
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Hi Tom!

The initial sales of the 645D were mostly to customers with an existing supply of 645 lenses or those who had access on the used market.  Unless the 645DII is a compelling improvement over the original e.g., full or nearly full frame, many of those customers will be lost to new sales, and attracting new users without concurrent improvement in lens availability (at least in North America) doesn’t seem likely.

I agree in part with both your analysis and your conclusion (in fact I fully agree if were are talking about North America' situation). I can only hope that this important region will get the same treatment as the rest of the world regarding FA 645 lens availability (in fact I think in Canada one has much better chances to order such lenses as new than in the U.S. and the problem lies with Pentax USA much more than with Japanese Pentax leadership).

Quote
How do you know Ricoh is raining money?  What will be the results you refer to?  I hope you're correct.

Tom

I know this both from public statements and private conversations. Pentax has run on "Hoya fumes" for the last couple of quarters but soon enough the new Ricoh strategy will start to unfold. This implies both a quantitative and a qualitative improvement in the Pentax camera range and the results of the technical improvements in K-mount range will trickle in the 645D range as well. The public signs were a series of interviews (e.g. the one gave by a Pentax UK manager) and most telling of all the very ambitious lens roadmaps that show a projected 20+ lenses to be made in the next 2 years for all three mounts (Q, K and 645). That means a lot of money and it is only logical that a similar investment will be also made in the camera body updates and refinements.

Radu
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tsjanik
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« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »
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Hi Tom!

I agree in part with both your analysis and your conclusion (in fact I fully agree if were are talking about North America' situation). I can only hope that this important region will get the same treatment as the rest of the world regarding FA 645 lens availability (in fact I think in Canada one has much better chances to order such lenses as new than in the U.S. and the problem lies with Pentax USA much more than with Japanese Pentax leadership).

I know this both from public statements and private conversations. Pentax has run on "Hoya fumes" for the last couple of quarters but soon enough the new Ricoh strategy will start to unfold. This implies both a quantitative and a qualitative improvement in the Pentax camera range and the results of the technical improvements in K-mount range will trickle in the 645D range as well. The public signs were a series of interviews (e.g. the one gave by a Pentax UK manager) and most telling of all the very ambitious lens roadmaps that show a projected 20+ lenses to be made in the next 2 years for all three mounts (Q, K and 645). That means a lot of money and it is only logical that a similar investment will be also made in the camera body updates and refinements.

Radu

Radu:
Very good news.  When I pre-ordered the 645D in 2010, it felt like a bit of a gamble; continued development is reassuring.  Having dealt with both Pentax Canada and Pentax USA, I agree with your comments and my preference for Pentax Canada extends beyond lens availability.
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2012, 06:41:24 AM »
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Radu:
Very good news.  When I pre-ordered the 645D in 2010, it felt like a bit of a gamble; continued development is reassuring.  Having dealt with both Pentax Canada and Pentax USA, I agree with your comments and my preference for Pentax Canada extends beyond lens availability.


Hi Tom!

If you need something like the new 90/2.8 portrait lens I heard it will become available worldwide at mid-year (June to July).

Best Regards,
Radu
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tsjanik
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« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2012, 07:55:31 AM »
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Thanks Radu.  I have no real need for the new lens, I don't take many portraits and am quite happy with the 67 90mm f/2.8 lens for my uses.  What I would really like to see is the new wide angle zoom or a 30mm f3.5 at a price less than the 25mm. Cheesy

Tom

645d, Pentax 67 90mm @f/2.8


_IGP2322 by tsjanik47, on Flickr
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2012, 08:34:36 AM »
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That was my point Tom, I already knew that you own the 90 from the 67 system and I just wondered how "old school lens" will compare to state of the art digital 2012 one!  Smiley Too bad you're not more into portraiture I guess if you were and interested in the new 90 I would loved to hear your thoughts about this match up.

About the second part you are in luck as Pentax seems to agree with the community that the weakest link in the zoom chain is the 33-55 and will replace it first. Again it is quite interesting to see how the new designs (that seems to mirror pretty well the older focals) will compare with the 80's and 90's designs (33-55 being the most "modern").

BR,
Radu

P.S. I just love the ethereal feeling of your picture and I am glad you repost it in this message! Smiley

Thanks Radu.  I have no real need for the new lens, I don't take many portraits and am quite happy with the 67 90mm f/2.8 lens for my uses.  What I would really like to see is the new wide angle zoom or a 30mm f3.5 at a price less than the 25mm. Cheesy

Tom

645d, Pentax 67 90mm @f/2.8


_IGP2322 by tsjanik47, on Flickr
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tsjanik
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« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2012, 09:36:10 AM »
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Thank you very Radu.  I knew I had posted that image somewhere before, but didn't realize you had already seen it.  I have been using the 67 300mm ED  quite a bit lately; a lovely lens for close ups. Some new beech leaves:

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